ATTENTION- ABP News : ABP Guidelines & Format for Sanctioned Events

[George Fels]

Abp

I'm having a bit of a struggle with WHO they are, but that's neither here nor. What bothers me is their insistence on seeded tournaments, to which I'm totally opposed. Any comparisons to tennis are not well thought-out; the latter sport does its seeding based on a system of internationally computerized rankings, and pool has nothing comparable. Seeded pool tournaments mean that any given local player - and there's little argument that such players make up a good part of most fields - ponies up his expensive entry fee assured that he will catch a real hitter no later than the third round, quite possibly the second. That just doesn't seem fair to me, not to the lesser players on whom the tournament depends nor to the game itself. GF

 

[Marie's husband]

ABP Guidelines & Format for Sanctioned Events



From the Association of Billiard Professionals


The ABP is pleased to announce the Official ABP Rules of the men's pro tour of pool. QUOTE]

Could someone clue me in on what the official meaning of "mens pro tour of pool" is?

Is it a tour that the ABP has established for 2012?

Is it just individual tournaments that the top players in the world routinely go to, but are in no ways linked to one another?

or?

If someone knows the answer, could you please fill me in.

 

[rayjay]

I look forward to the first tournament of the mens pro tour of pool. Has the venue and date been set?

 

[sjm]

I understand what you mean. The reason I take issue with the ABP, as far as the forum goes, is the come forward and explain part. They make a statement and refuse to explain. Even when they came on the first time, they wouldn't answer any real questions that pertained to the situation.

Based on how they represented themselves the first time, I would suggest it's better for them to stay in the shadows. Every time someone speaks representing the organization, they dig themselves a deeper hole.

I don't see their unwillingness to explain as the fundamental problem.

It's their process and their packaging that reak.

Compare their press release to the following hypothetical press release:
________________________________________________________


To Promoters,

ABP has established its business guidelines and here they are:

detailed guidelines go here

APB would like to thank the following persons for their guidance in the establishment of these guidleines: person 1, person 2, person 3, person 4.

Upon review of the finalized guidelines, some key figures in the pool industry made the following comments:

ABP Member 1: I think this is a step forward for professional players.

ABP Member 2: These guidelines make me feel more positive about continuing to pursue a career in pro pool.

Sponsor 1: I like what I see here and feel it serves the game's future well.

Promoter 1: I support the ABP in their mission and approve of these guidelines.

Avid Fan 1: I like what I see here, and can't wait to attend ABP events.

We look forward to pursuing our vision to deliver a premium pool product for our players, sponsors, promoters, and fans.

Sincerely, The ABP

___________________________________________________________


Not very similar to what we found in the original post, for these reasons:

1) input was not solicited from many of the parties whose finances are greatly affected by the introduction of these policies and guidelines.

2) even after the guidelines were finalized, no feedback was sought from key figures in the industry certain to be called on to help the ABP mission become a reality.

In short, had the release evidenced a collaborative process and offered the insights of key figures in the possible realization of ABP's dreams to validate their direction, I'd have not expected them to answer any questions.

It is because every indication is that these rules were not the result of a collaborative process and that key industry figures are not on board that so many quesitons remain unanswered.

And, finally, nobody is quite sure whose decisions these are, making it all seem a bit impersonal as a communication.

 

[Johnnyt]

How many 25k+ tournaments are held in the US now? Very few and going to be a few less I hear through the grapevine. Chasing away the few big tournaments that are left makes no sense to me. Most of the 25k+ purses are in Asia now. Very few pro men players from the US are sponsored. No full sponsor, no travel fund to go out of the country. I see this press release as bad for the US men players and could destroy whats left of big tournament pool here in the US. Johnnyt

 

[joelpope]

I agree with seeding

I think seeding makes a lot of sense.

From the amateur's perspective they have a better chance of matching their skills against a pro level player. The reality is that whoever makes it into the final 8 will be playing pros anyway, there is no way around that. Personally, if I don't get to the final 8 I would much rather have the opportunity to play, and quite possibly get beat by, a highly ranked pro as opposed to getting knocked out by the same local and regional players I play all the time.

From the promoter's & room owner's perspective, whoever wins has to beat everyone so again no way around that, all the seeding does is to prevent top draws from knocking each other out early which could ultimately hurt attendance and revenue generated by attendees.

From the pro's perspective, as mentioned in a previous post, you don't have #1 & #2 playing each other in the first round. Again, whoever wins has to beat everyone they play. It is important when the "Pro" is trying to make a living and is out of pocket for airfare, hotel, car, etc... so an early exit is basically food off the table. This isn't a once a year deal for the pros, it is several times a month. By definition, amateurs have their real job they rely on for income. The pros don't and it is their winnings and the sponsorships that winning generates that keeps them afloat.

Seeding helps make the winner's side stronger and quite frankly, the loser's side easier to survive. With random draw, the winner's side can be influenced by luck of the draw with weak players advancing until they hit a top pro. And, the losers side can be poisoned by a highly ranked player where a #1 or #2 get's bumped to the loser's side that pretty much spells the end of the road for everyone else on the loser's side.

Seeding may not be perfect but I believe is is better than random draw.

 

[JCIN]

Well I guess the biggest question's are still the same : Who exactly is the ABP and who exactly is speaking for them. Until these questions are answered its SSDD.

Something else I wonder is what exactly is a "United States ABP Ranking Points event" and why would anyone care about spending the time and money to do one? Evidently the ABP isn't doing any so it makes me wonder why they expect someone else to. I won't even get into the conflict of interest aspect of having a promoter sitting on the board of a players organization with no way for other promoters to have input.

I see this going one of two ways. One is it will simply end being up a mouse fart in the wind and things carry on as normal. The other is the ABP tries to force existing promoters into the seeding and rule changes under threat of boycott. If it is the latter I see a tough row to hoe for the ABP because of a few salient points I think they may not be giving enough weight:

1. There are not a whole lot of people jumping up to do $25K added events.

2. The people who already do $25K added events have nothing to gain by changing their established formats and rules.

3. The pro pool scene in the U.S. is tenuous at best. Rumor on the street is that the Seminoles are not coming back next year which knocks out five big money events right there leaving two Zuglan events, Barry Berhman doing the Open, Greg Sullivan doing the Derby, Mark Griffin doing the US Open 10 ball, Allen Hopkins doing the SBE Pro event and maybe Charlie Williams putting one or two 10-20k events together. Lets look at this list and guess who is going to change their rules, format and seeding:

Hopkins: Maybe.

Zuglan. Not no but probably hell no.

Sullivan: No way. Derby just doesnt lend itself to seeding or long races and isnt really a strict pro event anyway.

Barry: Maybe but I doubt it. Biggest sticking points is the call shot/call safe rules for 9 ball and the ABP seeding. Plus Barry is Barry, the Open is his baby and he is gonna draw a line somewhere on being told what to do.

Mark Griffin: He's my friend and partner so I know him pretty well. Lets just say it would surprise me greatly if he bought into the seeding and rule changes "required". A level of surprise on par with oh say the sun not coming up tomorrow.

Charlie Williams: ABP board member and if you believe the rumors head string puller. It's been a minute since Charlie did a BCA ranking points event but I suspect if and when he does do a $25K added event in this country it will be ABP all the way. Shocker there.

So we have three "No's", two "Maybe's" and a yes. If pushed the three no's will in all probability tell the ABP to pound sand and either keep on keepin on or just pull up from the pro game altogether. All in all it looks pretty bleak for the ABP prospects of turning existing events into a tour they can slap their name on.

I really hope this doesnt turn into a "my way or the highway" situation for anyone because no one is going to come out ahead.Best case for the ABP IMO is grandfather existing events as they sit, lobby for changes if you want but live and let live with the people who have for a long time and continue to pay your salaries however meager you may deem them.

The absolute best thing for the players to do to improve their own lot has been stated here on numerous occasions: Create your own tour. Show some serious organizational skills, unity, common sense, work ethic and there will be people jumping up to help. I can attest to this first hand. You'll starve for awhile but it's the only way to control your own destiny. If you are not willing or able to do that then making demands on others isn't going to get you where you want to be.

Damn. I didnt really mean to write all that. I was just going to post this picture:

 

[quadrary]

Unfair, inaccurate, comparison.

In tennis, as in almost every other mature professional sport, the "Open" events are not open to amatuers, in fact, they are not even open to all professionals, therefore professional players do not compete against amatuer or non-professional players in tournaments, and the "seeding" only reflects the rankings of the other professionals, and only affects the other 'professionals".

One would think that the "professional" already has a distinct and vast advantage against an amatuer. Futher tilting of the playing field by the "professionals" in their favor should result in much smaller fields, and rightfully so, IMO.

The ABP is making itself very hard to root for.

J

please explain to me what you believe is a great disadvantage to the amatuer players about having the pros seeded. In most of the tournaments you are talking double elimination by seeding if the amatuer gets kicked to the loser side early he is less likely to have a solid 2 and out because 2 top tier players went at it early and one is now comming up the loser side.

 

[Mark Griffin]

ABP Press release

Seeding seems to be the topic of the hour.

In theory, seeding does not seem so bad.
BUT - there is no real method for doing that.

Sure you can take the BCA points events and seed from those.
BUT - what about when a few of the Asian players show up and they don't have many BCA points?

They are considered a non-seeded player.
NICE - Dennis Orcullo the #1 player unseeded - or maybe Bustamonte and few others.

The mechanism is just not there if the events have international players.

If everyone would work together, we could get to the point where events are filled with 'qualifed players' which are then seeded. (Going back to the tennis comparison).

BUT - as before, I dont think for a minute the ABP is wanting to sit down and negotiate in good faith with anyone.

And as mentioned, the word CONFLICT has not been addressed. Huge problem!

Why do the players have to come across as so arrogant - or maybe it is only a FEW players that are 'representing' the others? Who is making the decisions? This spectulation comes from the fact that they put out a press release with little follow up.

They need a PR man - now.

Mark Griffin

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Sanctioning guidelines to be a national United States ABP Ranking Points event:

$25,000 minimum added
$300 minimum entry fee *unless the added money is above $25,000
Event must seed at minimum the top 16 ranked ABP players properly from #1-16 (not random seeding)
Seeding will go by ABP rankings
* ABP encourages all promoters to use the ABP Pro Rules
All new promoters must have the added prize money and entries sent in advance before the tournament dates. Contact ABP for details

Unification of rules and format helps the sport. Promoters will benefit from using the rules and format that the pro membership desires and avoid confusion of rules

The Association of Billiard Professionals was formed in March of 2010 with the goal of uniting the world’s greatest players. The ABP is harnessing the power of all professional players for a common goal: to improve the sport of billiards so that associations, promoters, sponsors and players alike may work in conjunction to advance the game.

Apparently the tournaments that don't conform to the above guidelines will be effectively boycotted just like the U.S. Open was.

 

[brandoncook26]

they need a pr man - now.

Mark griffin

^^^this^^^

 

[Mark Griffin]

ABP Press release

Apparently the tournaments that don't conform to the above guidelines will be effectively boycotted just like the U.S. Open was.

If that is truely the case, that is the end of pool as we know it. It will also likely be the end of most of the boycotting players - since their main source of income wlil likely disappear.

I am sure their sponsors will keep paying them when there are no events - or two or three different 'sanctionin bodies' etc.

On the bright side, the top players are those that win the events. There will still be events - and maybe 100's of short stops will try to get 'their share' of the prize if the top 16 or so are not allowed to play???

Why does this sound so familiar?

Mark Griffin

(I think I will wait until we get some 'facts' from somebody before responding much more. Because I don't like making statements about something I know nothing about. . . .)

 

[JCIN]

If that is truely the case, that is the end of pool as we know it. It will also likely be the end of most of the boycotting players - since their main source of income wlil likely disappear.

I am sure their sponsors will keep paying them when there are no events - or two or three different 'sanctionin bodies' etc.

On the bright side, the top players are those that win the events. There will still be events - and maybe 100's of short stops will try to get 'their share' of the prize if the top 16 or so are not allowed to play???

Why does this sound so familiar?

Mark Griffin

(I think I will wait until we get some 'facts' from somebody before responding much more. Because I don't like making statements about something I know nothing about. . . .)

My guess is, similar to the last PR fiasco, the right hand has no clue what the left is doing. Or that there is even a left hand.

 

[brandoncook26]

If that is truely the case, that is the end of pool as we know it. It will also likely be the end of most of the boycotting players - since their main source of income wlil likely disappear.

I am sure their sponsors will keep paying them when there are no events - or two or three different 'sanctionin bodies' etc.

On the bright side, the top players are those that win the events. There will still be events - and maybe 100's of short stops will try to get 'their share' of the prize if the top 16 or so are not allowed to play???

Why does this sound so familiar?

Mark Griffin

(I think I will wait until we get some 'facts' from somebody before responding much more. Because I don't like making statements about something I know nothing about. . . .)

Mark, semi-related to this, I just want to thank you and Greg for all you two do for pool. I know you don't have to do the pro events and most of your income is amateur. Even though some of the pro's may not see it, thanks for putting things together so I can have a little entertainment in the world of pool.

That's what all this is afterall, entertainment. It is a symbiotic relationship between players, promoters, and fans. Without any of the three there would be no professional pool. I appreciate your efforts in putting on great, classy events.

 

[Marie's husband]

Hey, there is a brighter side, at least you are going to get 64 more players joining local leagues.

You may have to make a seperate division for the national event and rate the players based on "known ability", the "man did we screw up divsion".

If that is truely the case, that is the end of pool as we know it. It will also likely be the end of most of the boycotting players - since their main source of income wlil likely disappear.

I am sure their sponsors will keep paying them when there are no events - or two or three different 'sanctionin bodies' etc.

On the bright side, the top players are those that win the events. There will still be events - and maybe 100's of short stops will try to get 'their share' of the prize if the top 16 or so are not allowed to play???

Why does this sound so familiar?

Mark Griffin

(I think I will wait until we get some 'facts' from somebody before responding much more. Because I don't like making statements about something I know nothing about. . . .)

 

["CaliRed".]

The part I don't get, is that they seem to be alienating all their fans. I mean look at what kind of image they have on this site. Now their argument with the Barry deal, had a legitimate beef, which was they wanted to be paid on time. The way of going about that and finding a solution could have been handled in a better fashion, that would have probably accomplished the same end result, but would have had most of the fans on their side while doing it.

Forget about all that now.. that's history. But I would think they would have started a PR campaign afterwards to try and get the fans behind them again.

After all, just like in any customer based business, if you don't have the customers coming to the show, there is no show. So while the fans/customers always seem to be the peons in the picture, someone better start thinking about them, because of sponsors and promoters start to see empty stands and no money coming in, you can make up all the demands in the world, it ain't gonna happen.

This whole popping in every now and then, with a post of a bunch of demands, where no one signs anything and everyone knows that multiple people have login credentials, is not the way to go. If you're going to say something on a public forum, the biggest one in pool, then you best stick around from the moment you post it and start answering some questions that come up.

So I say get a PR man/woman/company and get them cracking on this. It's not too late now, but it's going in the wrong direction right now.

 

[The Renfro]

Arguing against seeding doesn't make a ton of sense.... No one wants a weak bracket except for players hoping to get drawn into it and getting a free ride to the money.....

I know I get a big gun in the first 3 rounds with seeding.... I guess without it I should hope for a whole weak side and not bracket and I won't get one until the hot seat?? Really??

In double elimination you almost have to seed to avoid weak brackets from occurring... Go take a look at See's bracket when he won his world championship... If we cannot do round robins seeding is the best option....

And if an Asian players that are not on the list used for seeding show up so be it... They go in the rest of the draw and may just take out the ABP seed first round.....

As far as making it an incentive for also rans instead of a reason for them not to show up have the 16 seeded players pay an extra 100 entry that is put into a bounty fund... If seeded players are beaten in the first or second rounds divvy out the bounty money to the players that took them out... If they all go undefeated refund it to the ABP for the next sanctioned event..... They can then add it and 100 for each seeded and you start to get incentives for showing up and taking a shot at a pro early knowing if you pull it off you get some cheese.....

 

[pro9dg]

Mark Griffin is understandably making noises of opposition to these ill considered proposals and I think that the next up to challenge the ABP will be the WPA and Matchroom. Just look at the likely sticking points.

ABP Guidelines & Format for Sanctioned Events



From the Association of Billiard Professionals


The ABP is pleased to announce the Official ABP Rules of the men's pro tour of pool. These rules were created by the top pro players in the world. These rules and guidleines will go into effect in 2012. The following is the established guidelines and rules of the Association of Billiard Professionals.

THE FIRST EVENT LIKELY TO BE AFFECTED IS LIKELY TO BE THE WORLD 9 BALL IN FEBRUARY
Sanctioning guidelines to be a national United States ABP Ranking Points event:

$25,000 minimum added
$300 minimum entry fee *unless the added money is above $25,000
Event must seed at minimum the top 16 ranked ABP players properly from #1-16 (not random seeding)
Seeding will go by ABP rankings
* ABP encourages all promoters to use the ABP Pro Rules
THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN. THE WPA RANKINGS WILL DETERMINE THE INITIAL GROUPINGS AND THE INITIAL INVITATIONS WILL BE FROM THE FEDERATIONS OWN SOURCES

All new promoters must have the added prize money and entries sent in advance before the tournament dates. Contact ABP for details


Format: All of the following applies to 10-Ball & 9-Ball.


Winner breaks
9-Ball minimum race to 11
10-Ball minimum race to 9
Double elimination. *if a major network televised event, reasonable exceptions can be made in formats
One race finals
MATCHROOM WILL DO AS THEY PLEASE WITH THIS SEGMENT SO IT IS JUST AS WELL THAT THE ABP HAVE A PLAN B HERE.

Rules:
Call shot & call safety
Missed shot or accidental pocketing even in safes will be Shoot Again option by the opponent
Break box
10-Ball/9ball does not count on break anywhere
Rack your own balls
(*more rules will be added later, these are the ABP Rule basics)
ELIMINATING THE GOLDEN BREAKS. TV VIEWERS LOVE THEM SO THAT WILL BE OUT THE WINDOW TOO.
THE ABP HAVE HAD SOME SUCCESS WITH PUSHING ONE PROMOTER AROUND BUT HE HAS ONLY ONE MAYBE TWO EVENTS. BUT THE OTHERS HAVE MULTIPLE EVENTS AND ARE LIKELY TO BE TOO STRONG FOR THE ABP. WHAT IS GLARINGLY OBVIOUS IS THAT THE PLAYERS HAVE NO CONCEPTION OF THE COMMERCIAL REQUIREMENTS OF TOURNAMENT PROMOTION.
THERE ARE STILL A GREAT NUMBER OF WORLD CLASS PLAYERS WHO ARE NOT PART OF THE ABP.


Benefits for promoters:
ABP will publicize and encourage all pro players to participate including the top 50 ranked

Promoters may use ABP pro players in advertisements to promote the event
ABP will provide pro players to attend pro-am events/charities if applicable to the event

Unification of rules and format helps the sport. Promoters will benefit from using the rules and format that the pro membership desires and avoid confusion of rules

To sanction your event or to join the ABP, please contact us at ABPpropool@gmail.com or visit http://www.abp-players.com/

The Association of Billiard Professionals was formed in March of 2010 with the goal of uniting the world’s greatest players. The ABP is harnessing the power of all professional players for a common goal: to improve the sport of billiards so that associations, promoters, sponsors and players alike may work in conjunction to advance the game.
For more info on ABP go visit www.abp-players.com or email abppropool@gmail.com

 

[mnShooter]

Call safety and shoot Again option by the opponent make the game boring. This is a very bad idea.

ABP doesn't realize that these events are put on for them. Without the events there wouldn't be any money. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

 

[sunnyday]

Why did ABP post their Guidelines & Format for Sanctioned Events, so called their news on Discussion Forum and don't have a decency to join on the discussion? There are questions and need for clarification being raised here by forum members which have simply been ignored...

S.G.