ATTENTION- ABP News : ABP Guidelines & Format for Sanctioned Events

I have been saying this for a while...the ABP and Professional Pool players need to make themselves a commodity in order to get the attention of promoters and event coordinators.

The current state of Professional Pool is not great at the moment. I know who Tiger Woods and Phil Michelson are, but I dont follow or play golf, let alone know the rules or anything about the equipment. But current league players dont even know who Efren Reyes, Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, Rodney Morris, Ralf Souquet, etc are. They need to get their names out there, promote the sport and engage the audience and help pool grow, that way promoters and sponsors can see the ABP and professional Pool as a commodity.

As a new organization, they need to donate their time to get their name out there. One thing I can think of is to work with event coordinators to help promote the event, such as going to Local Leagues up to two weeks before the event and promote and engage with the league players. It might be harder to do for international events, but shouldnt be hard for US events, where ABP has members throughout the country. Events like the US Open, Super Billiards Expo, Turning Stone, Seminole Tours, etc, the ABP members could go around to pool halls in states within travel distance of the event and promote to league players. They should be working with League operators and owners to find out which area has the biggest leagues and join league players for a night and show them how to grow their game, while at the same time promoting the event.

The ABP should also get a booth at big name events such as SBE, and BCA, APA, TAP Vegas events. To get their names and their branding out there. A table or two (one full size, one bar size) near their booth would be a tremendous help too, that way they can have a 'challenge the Pro' event. As well as helping the league players out with any questions they might have about position play, stroke analysis, shot making, etc. The ABP booth should have brochures of websites, schedules, social media (twitter/facebook) of various Pro players, that way they can get their name and brand out there.

I remember back at this years SBE they had a fund raiser for Ginky's memorial, they should have more fund raising events like that. Even after SBE, a lot of pro players went to NYC to continue the fund raising event. It was something like $10 to play a pro player, and you get one ticket into a raffle for a cue, and if win the match, you get another ticket for the raffle. They need to have similar events for other charities. Maybe the Pros play a single elimination tournament such that the winner decides which charity it goes to. And they should promote the fund raising event over the radio and on local news whenever possible. Maybe they should have a fund raising event like this during every big Billiards event, such as Vegas in May, or SBE, US Open.

Another goal for them should be to get back on television, a live show would be great. I dont get how people can watch golf, but if there is an audience for watching golf, there can be an audience for pool as well. It just has to be regulated such that its exciting or interesting to watch.

Another goal should be to gain outside sponsors, apparently Pepsi bottling company is a sponsor of this years US Open 9 ball. The Pros should be working with said outside sponsors to find a way to promote their products and keep them as a continuing sponsor. Maybe Pepsi can even create a product just for Pool Players. Maybe the pros can contact Pepsi and do a commercial for them, a commercial that involves pool as well as Pepsi's products. Maybe they can get some outside sponsors like fast food companies, or car manufacturers.

Another goal is to rebrand what the general public thinks about professional pool players. The general public has the image that pool players and pool halls are a hustlers and are usually portrayed in a negative light. Perhaps a national interview with a news program, like 20/20 or Nightline, can inform the general public that pool players are not hustlers or con men as portrayed in the movies and tv shows. Current Pro Players have families to support, mortgages and bills to pay, others play pro pool on the side while working full time or part time jobs, some teach pool, some might have college degrees, some run tournaments or act as consultants for tv shows. The ABP should also protect their brand by instituting certain rules amongst their members, such as staying clean from drugs. Maybe have some members that are recovering users (if any) do some community service by going around to schools to send a message to kids (about drugs and alcohol), and again to promote the image.
 
Call safety and shoot Again option by the opponent make the game boring. This is a very bad idea.

ABP doesn't realize that these events are put on for them. Without the events there wouldn't be any money. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

On the bright side, if "option to return the table after a miss" rules are in effect, eliminating two-way shots and may other multipurpose shots, I don't have to attend.

Not only is this version of the game boring, but it simplifies shot design to the point of failing to showcase all the skills of the most imaginative players.

A couple of years ago at Valley Forge, the person next to me looked befuddled as they asked me why a player had made four consecutive attempts at shooting the ten ball without their opponent ever leaving the chair. I explained it but they still seemed a bit shocked.

Yeah, that's what the pro game needs, a version of pool that is completely unrecognizable to the amateur players! No doubt, though, the top pros will still continue to wonder out loud why the amateur ranks don't subsidize the world of professional pool.

Woe is us is we don't get our hands around this disheartening trend. At very least, promoters of such events need to consider ensuring that No-Doz is available at the concession stands.

In seeing to their own needs and ignoring what matters to some of its fundamental strategic partners, the ABP is dealing out its sponsors, its promoters and its most ardent fans.
 
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On the bright side, if "option to return the table after a miss" rules are in effect, eliminating two-way shots and may other multipurpose shots, I don't have to attend.

Not only is this version of the game boring, but it simplifies shot design to the point of failing to showcase all the skills of the most imaginative players.

A couple of years ago at Valley Forge, the person next to me looked befuddled as they asked me why a player had made four consecutive attempts at shooting the ten ball without their opponent ever leaving the chair. I explained it but they still seemed a bit shocked.

Yeah, that's what the pro game needs, a version of pool that is completely unrecognizable to the amateur players! No doubt, though, the top pros will still continue to wonder out loud why the amateur ranks don't subsidize the world of professional pool.

Woe is us is we don't get our hands around this disheartening trend. At very least, promoters of such events need to consider ensuring that No-Doz is available at the concession stands.

In seeing to their own needs and ignoring what matters to some of its fundamental strategic partners, the ABP is dealing out its sponsors, its promoters and its most ardent fans.

They should come out and say what they mean: "We want seeding to make sure we get the best chance to make the money and we want rules taking as much luck out of the game as possible to keep someone from sh!tting out on us."

I understand all of that from a players point of view and have had that discussion with more than a few. The thing many advocates of that system just refuse to acknowledge is what do you do when the only guys who show up are the ones who are seeded? Not that their would actually ever be any events still around by then but it is a logical conclusion to the scenario.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with Greg Sullivan about a wild idea for a pro tour. Basically you take sixteen guys, four pool tables, go around the country and play tournaments. The prize fund is what the players draw on the gate, sponsors and the streaming ppv after expenses. Eat what you kill. You draw a $5000 gate you are eating beans, draw $50,000 and you are going Sizzler. End of the season top eight stay and the bottom eight have to re-qualify along with anyone else who wants a spot on the tour. No more pesky promoters or rules to live by. Players org owns the the whole thing.

One thing for sure is everyone would find out exactly what the marketability and drawing power of the top pro's is in the real world. Asses in seats do not lie. I think it could make a go of it if the right players committed two years to it and had a few roll's along the way. Maybe thats what the plan is ? Piss everyone else off to the point of quitting so there is an open field for the ABP to do their own thing. Makes as much sense as anything else I can come up with. Cause there is no way any sane person thinks every promoter in the US is just going to fall in line.
 
Seeding is a good thing and some people comparing pool to tennis. Well tennis doesnt have girls playing with the boys so right off the bat how u seed dat. Second sedded players in tennis show the number by the name in pool they never show what number the seeded players are and if the good players want to take the luck out of pool play race to 7 three out of five sets like tennis single limination.
 
I almost forgot one thing in tennis if an unseeded player beats a seeded player he gets bonus points I would have had a few this year.
 
They should come out and say what they mean: "We want seeding to make sure we get the best chance to make the money and we want rules taking as much luck out of the game as possible to keep someone from sh!tting out on us."

I understand all of that from a players point of view and have had that discussion with more than a few. The thing many advocates of that system just refuse to acknowledge is what do you do when the only guys who show up are the ones who are seeded? Not that their would actually ever be any events still around by then but it is a logical conclusion to the scenario.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with Greg Sullivan about a wild idea for a pro tour. Basically you take sixteen guys, four pool tables, go around the country and play tournaments. The prize fund is what the players draw on the gate, sponsors and the streaming ppv after expenses. Eat what you kill. You draw a $5000 gate you are eating beans, draw $50,000 and you are going Sizzler. End of the season top eight stay and the bottom eight have to re-qualify along with anyone else who wants a spot on the tour. No more pesky promoters or rules to live by. Players org owns the the whole thing.

One thing for sure is everyone would find out exactly what the marketability and drawing power of the top pro's is in the real world. Asses in seats do not lie. I think it could make a go of it if the right players committed two years to it and had a few roll's along the way. Maybe thats what the plan is ? Piss everyone else off to the point of quitting so there is an open field for the ABP to do their own thing. Makes as much sense as anything else I can come up with. Cause there is no way any sane person thinks every promoter in the US is just going to fall in line.

Fantastic post!
 
Originally Posted by jimmyg
Unfair, inaccurate, comparison.

In tennis, as in almost every other mature professional sport, the "Open" events are not open to amatuers, in fact, they are not even open to all professionals, therefore professional players do not compete against amatuer or non-professional players in tournaments, and the "seeding" only reflects the rankings of the other professionals, and only affects the other 'professionals".

One would think that the "professional" already has a distinct and vast advantage against an amatuer. Futher tilting of the playing field by the "professionals" in their favor should result in much smaller fields, and rightfully so, IMO.

The ABP is making itself very hard to root for. J
please explain to me what you believe is a great disadvantage to the amatuer players about having the pros seeded. In most of the tournaments you are talking double elimination by seeding if the amatuer gets kicked to the loser side early he is less likely to have a solid 2 and out because 2 top tier players went at it early and one is now comming up the loser side.

Is this a trick question? :smile:

Simple. Every advantage your opponent receives is a disadvantage to you.

We must also accept the fact that seeding is, by design, a huge advantage, that is not arguable, it is a given. If it wasn't, the ABP would concede that issue and move on.

Again, I am speaking in term of what the pool world calls an "open" tournament, where amatuer players are in the field with and compete against the world's best pros, which automatically places them at a distinct disadvantage. Since these world class pros would also be the ones given the additional advantage of being the "seeded" players, they would not only have a strong advantage over the unseeded pros, but a double advantage over the amatuers, which is exactly what the ABP wants.

If they sincerely wish to follow the tennis organizational model, they would have to establish their own "pro only" tour, and create a ranking system in order to determine the seedings before each of their tournaments. I don't believe that anyone would take issue with that.

Amatuers would have to be absolutely foolish to enter an "open" tournament whereas they play even against the top pros and then, by virtue of the seeding, just about have to give them a free ride for the first two or three rounds as well.

Their demands appear to be either intentionally self serving, or very poorly designed. Either way it will accomplis more harm than good. IMO.

J
 
This.....

http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000thepros.php

Nothing else is relevant to this discussion... If I Show up to a big tournament I am going to have to beat several of the seeded pros to win it. All of the nit picking needs to stop unless YOU are a touring professional...

Most of us go to events when they are close to us and play in them... We are not on the road constantly trying to do this for a living....

Look at the list and try and figure out which 16 would be on the ABP top 16 list.... The money cutoff is 23K..... SO removing the players that do not live in the states we don't even have 16 that can make a frickin living....

Shane Van Boening
Alex Pagulayan
Niels Feijen
Rodney Morris
Thorsten Hohman
Mika Immonen
Johnny Archer
Mike Dechaine
Earl Strickland
Larry Nevel

10 Players....


Look at the list... Notice some players missing in here?? How about Dennis Hatch? Corey Deuel??? Pretty sad when those 2 can't make enough to live on.... Make it 3... Stevie Moore... 4 - Donnie Mills...
Really??? HillBilly, Hennessee, Frost, Parica, Raffy.... These are the names we all want to watch but you want to deny seeding???

The US Open is a seeded event.... It is the biggest single discipline tournament in the country... I don't think I have heard any crying when I have been there from any of the real players....

Get a grip... The pros are who the fans come to see... They don't come to see the guy that lives an hour away... Matter of fact when I go to a tournament I want to play the pros...

You show up and play... If you are going to go very far you have to beat some pros.... Maybe you might even be better off meeting them in the early rounds before they really get in stroke......
 
The press releases for ABP are disseminated in a similar format as Dragon Promotions and the now-defunct UPA.

The flippant attitude conveyed in these press releases is also very similar to the messages disseminated by the UPA at its genesis. You would think that *they* would learn from the past that giving promoters ultimatums won't work.

During the last ABP fiasco, I wrote several times, as did others, that the ABP should have a public affairs person representing their interests. Threads like these do nothing but muddy the waters and create hostility between the pool public and ABP members. Apparently, the ABP's front man doesn't give a damn what AzBilliards thinks, or why would they continue to post these harmful announcements?

One Cabinet member in our Federal Government has been told to *not* speak to the public unless it is through his/her public affairs department. He/she has committed so many faux pas in the past when speaking to the public that therereafter congressional hearings, one right after the other, occurred for clarification of his/her words. They lost funding from the appropriations committees because of their faux pas in public.

The ABP and most so-called "pros" don't think much of pool forums and seem to believe that whatever occurs here ain't too important to them, yet this man behind the curtain at the ABP continues to post announcements in a dictatorial fashion, creating a bigger divide between the pool public and the ABP members.

There's only a handful of ABP members who actually *do* read this forum. Whichever ABP member is creating these threads -- and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who it is -- is hurting ABP's already-tarnished image.

Whoever does read this from the ABP, someone needs to step up to the plate and do a little damage control now and ask the person who created this thread to step down from this task of communicating with the public.
 
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The press releases for ABP are disseminated in a similar format as Dragon Promotions and the now-defunct UPA.

The flippant attitude conveyed in these press releases is also very similar to the messages disseminated by the UPA at its genesis. You would think that *they* would learn from the past that giving promoters ultimatums won't work.

During the last ABP fiasco, I wrote several times, as did others, that the ABP should have a public affairs person representing their interests. Threads like these do nothing but muddy the waters and create hostility between the pool public and ABP members. Apparently, the ABP's front man doesn't give a damn what AzBilliards thinks, or why would they continue to post these harmful announcements?

One Cabinet member in our Federal Government has been told to *not* speak to the public unless it is through his/her public affairs department. He/she has committed so many faux pas in the past when speaking to the public that therereafter congressional hearings, one right after the other, occurred for clarification of his/her words. They lost funding from the appropriations committees because of their faux pas in public.

The ABP and most so-called "pros" don't think much of pool forums and seem to believe that whatever occurs here ain't too important to them, yet this man behind the curtain at the ABP continues to post announcements in a dictatorial fashion, creating a bigger divide between the pool public and the ABP members.

There's only a handful of ABP members who actually *do* read this forum. Whichever ABP member is creating these threads -- and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who it is -- is hurting ABP's already-tarnished image.

Whoever does read this from the ABP, someone needs to step up to the plate and do a little damage control now and ask the person who created this thread to step down from this task of communicating with the public.

Jen

I get the impression that you think that it is Charlie Williams who is 'the man behind the curtain'. For some unknown reason I think it is Shaun Putnam. That may be unfair to both parties. So why don't the ABP clear things up by appointing a named player as Press Officer. But maybe nobody wants to stand up and be counted.
 
They should come out and say what they mean: "We want seeding to make sure we get the best chance to make the money and we want rules taking as much luck out of the game as possible to keep someone from sh!tting out on us."

I understand all of that from a players point of view and have had that discussion with more than a few. The thing many advocates of that system just refuse to acknowledge is what do you do when the only guys who show up are the ones who are seeded? Not that their would actually ever be any events still around by then but it is a logical conclusion to the scenario.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with Greg Sullivan about a wild idea for a pro tour. Basically you take sixteen guys, four pool tables, go around the country and play tournaments. The prize fund is what the players draw on the gate, sponsors and the streaming ppv after expenses. Eat what you kill. You draw a $5000 gate you are eating beans, draw $50,000 and you are going Sizzler. End of the season top eight stay and the bottom eight have to re-qualify along with anyone else who wants a spot on the tour. No more pesky promoters or rules to live by. Players org owns the the whole thing.

One thing for sure is everyone would find out exactly what the marketability and drawing power of the top pro's is in the real world. Asses in seats do not lie. I think it could make a go of it if the right players committed two years to it and had a few roll's along the way. Maybe thats what the plan is ? Piss everyone else off to the point of quitting so there is an open field for the ABP to do their own thing. Makes as much sense as anything else I can come up with. Cause there is no way any sane person thinks every promoter in the US is just going to fall in line.

I don't mind saying that I agree with the players owning their own tour as proposed. They could easily handle this but they won't do it.
 
Jen

I get the impression that you think that it is Charlie Williams who is 'the man behind the curtain'.

You always were an astute cookie! :D

pro9dg said:
For some unknown reason I think it is Shaun Putnam. That may be unfair to both parties. So why don't the ABP clear things up by appointing a named player as Press Officer. But maybe nobody wants to stand up and be counted.

It's like a hit-and-run, Doug. Nobody knows who's behind the curtain, so nobody is held accountable for the words written by the so-called AzBilliards member named "ABPpros."

I know you were around for the UPA when it first came to the fore. Do you notice any similarities?

Putnam is man enough to post on this forum and dodge any bullets. In fact, to his credit, he chooses to face any controversy on this forum by conveying the logic, how he sees it, of the ABP's vision. Gotta give the man credit where credit is due.

Those who hide behing a curtain remind me of the multiple-identitied trolls or banned members posting who hit and run on this forum.
 
Benefits for promoters:
ABP will publicize and encourage all pro players to participate including the top 50 ranked

Promoters may use ABP pro players in advertisements to promote the event
ABP will provide pro players to attend pro-am events/charities if applicable to the event


:eek:Unification of rules and format helps the sport. Promoters will benefit from using the rules and format that the pro membership desires and avoid confusion of rules :eek2:

Encourage?! There is a squishy word for you...!
How about 'strive' promoters shall strive to make all payments. Not so good anymore, eh?

What the ABP needs is $. They need to provide a travel fund and guarantee attendance of its members as a % of total participanmts per event, provide advertising for the events it supports.

And they should be running their own tour. I hope that is in the works, not just the demanding.
 
For the past 10 to 12 years the us open 9 ball has been seeded. I dont understand what all the fuss is about. Another question i got if allison or karen corr play how would they be seeded in the event or any other top women pros playing in the open.
 
During the last ABP fiasco, I wrote several times, as did others, that the ABP should have a public affairs person representing their interests. Threads like these do nothing but muddy the waters and create hostility between the pool public and ABP members. Apparently, the ABP's front man doesn't give a damn what AzBilliards thinks, or why would they continue to post these harmful announcements?

Whichever ABP member is creating these threads -- and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who it is -- is hurting ABP's already-tarnished image.
I'm not a rocket scientist so who's the hapless ABP member creating these threads? ;)

The ABP may need more than a PR person to make lemons taste like lemonade. The underlying problem is with the ABP board of directors who have taken a adversarial "my way or the highway" approach to making reforms to tournament payouts and seeding. Using the veiled threat of a boycott like they did at the U.S. Open is certainly not the best way to implement reforms.
 
I don't mind saying that I agree with the players owning their own tour as proposed. They could easily handle this but they won't do it.

Players that have formed associations that supposidly represent the pros in the sport, to my knowlege have never succeeded. They are pool players and Not business men, two completely different Animals, neither can survive without the other. Pro associations in the past seemed to have been created by the best players to protect and make sure the dollars would flow their way. UPA, PBT, PCA, and others. Its easy to get excited about being involved and being part of these prior associations, but there was no long term vision. The PBT with Camel had possibilities, why, because it was run by a business with player imput, and not the other way around, and the tobacco issues arose and that also put a wrench in it, + the BIG MaCeeeeeeeeeeeee.
 
They should come out and say what they mean: "We want seeding to make sure we get the best chance to make the money and we want rules taking as much luck out of the game as possible to keep someone from sh!tting out on us."

I understand all of that from a players point of view and have had that discussion with more than a few. The thing many advocates of that system just refuse to acknowledge is what do you do when the only guys who show up are the ones who are seeded? Not that their would actually ever be any events still around by then but it is a logical conclusion to the scenario.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with Greg Sullivan about a wild idea for a pro tour. Basically you take sixteen guys, four pool tables, go around the country and play tournaments. The prize fund is what the players draw on the gate, sponsors and the streaming ppv after expenses. Eat what you kill. You draw a $5000 gate you are eating beans, draw $50,000 and you are going Sizzler. End of the season top eight stay and the bottom eight have to re-qualify along with anyone else who wants a spot on the tour. No more pesky promoters or rules to live by. Players org owns the the whole thing.

One thing for sure is everyone would find out exactly what the marketability and drawing power of the top pro's is in the real world. Asses in seats do not lie. I think it could make a go of it if the right players committed two years to it and had a few roll's along the way. Maybe thats what the plan is ? Piss everyone else off to the point of quitting so there is an open field for the ABP to do their own thing. Makes as much sense as anything else I can come up with. Cause there is no way any sane person thinks every promoter in the US is just going to fall in line.
Fantastic post!
:withstupid:
100% agreed, SJM.
 
Players that have formed associations that supposidly represent the pros in the sport, to my knowlege have never succeeded. They are pool players and Not business men, two completely different Animals, neither can survive without the other. Pro associations in the past seemed to have been created by the best players to protect and make sure the dollars would flow their way. UPA, PBT, PCA, and others. Its easy to get excited about being involved and being part of these prior associations, but there was no long term vision. The PBT with Camel had possibilities, why, because it was run by a business with player imput, and not the other way around, and the tobacco issues arose and that also put a wrench in it, + the BIG MaCeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Wasn't the big tobacco issues that arose from the tour asking for more and more funding from the tobacco company? Johnnyt
 
Abp

Originally Posted by JCIN View Post
They should come out and say what they mean: "We want seeding to make sure we get the best chance to make the money and we want rules taking as much luck out of the game as possible to keep someone from sh!tting out on us."

I understand all of that from a players point of view and have had that discussion with more than a few. The thing many advocates of that system just refuse to acknowledge is what do you do when the only guys who show up are the ones who are seeded? Not that their would actually ever be any events still around by then but it is a logical conclusion to the scenario.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with Greg Sullivan about a wild idea for a pro tour. Basically you take sixteen guys, four pool tables, go around the country and play tournaments. The prize fund is what the players draw on the gate, sponsors and the streaming ppv after expenses. Eat what you kill. You draw a $5000 gate you are eating beans, draw $50,000 and you are going Sizzler. End of the season top eight stay and the bottom eight have to re-qualify along with anyone else who wants a spot on the tour. No more pesky promoters or rules to live by. Players org owns the the whole thing.

One thing for sure is everyone would find out exactly what the marketability and drawing power of the top pro's is in the real world. Asses in seats do not lie. I think it could make a go of it if the right players committed two years to it and had a few roll's along the way. Maybe thats what the plan is ? Piss everyone else off to the point of quitting so there is an open field for the ABP to do their own thing. Makes as much sense as anything else I can come up with. Cause there is no way any sane person thinks every promoter in the US is just going to fall in line


Everyone immediately checks the board at events to see who they drew. I know for a fact no-one wants to draw SVB-Archer-Hatch and so on in their first match. If they say they do, they are LYING!!! Some Amateur players who pay good money to go to these events would actually enjoy cashing sometimes. If you are a Pro player then stop being scared and beat some of your PEERS!
 
Unfortunately for the ABP, most large pool tournaments need the dead money amateur entries in order to fill the fields to the point that the tournament is a winner for the promoter and the vendors. The rules they ask for only make it much harder for the amateur player to envision themselves getting in the money and will tend to discourage the amateur entries. Most of the amateurs have little to no shot of cashing without all the seeding and call everything rules, so why make it so unfriendly for their entries?

The analogy about tennis playing #1 vs #2 is invalid because that sport's dynamics are totally different than ours. They have Corona beer as a sponsor. Our events have local plumbing companies. They have satellite tours and droves of players trying to get into events. Our largest event this year (Mizerak event) couldnt even fill 64 players @$500 a pop.

The ABP lacks leverage to get any of their demands met. The only leverage they have , which is boycott, would seem to put the knife into the body of the nearly dead horse that the ABP players hope to ride on again and again.
 
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