Attn: Mr. Wilson and all American players

What gives the WPA the right to determine who is and isn't a world champion? How long has the WPA been around? What gives them the right to strip a title from someone, so to speak?

These and other questions deserve serious consideration in my opinion. If the WPA has been around for 15 years (?), I guess that means there are only 15 world champions. Accordingly, I guess Luther, Jersey Red, Ronnie and others from way back are now "stripped" of the ever-elusive titles they won long ago. Moreover, Grady, The Miz, Allen H. and Sigel, men who shaped American pool as we know it today, are out as well.

The WPA has gone too far. If they want to be the governing body for future world champion monikers that's okay if the players agree. However, reaching into the past is improper and should not be allowed. This is especially so considering they probably weren't even around when champions like Grady won world titles in the first place.

I'm with Grady on this. The WPA has crossed the line.
 
your fault . . .

that's what a low profile will get ya! :D :D :D

Hu



AzHousePro said:
I am behind you 100% Grady. No one who has worked to accomplish something over the years ever wants those accomplishments diminished.

I sincerely hope that Mr Wilson doesn't post anything else like that on his website ever again.

Mike
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A low profile and multiple conversations with Grady over the years.

Not as bad as when Mike Gulyassi argued with Holly saying that he knew for a fact that Scott Taylor owned AzB.

Mike

ShootingArts said:
that's what a low profile will get ya! :D :D :D

Hu
Click to expand...
 
Grady said:
In the name of pool, I beg you Mr. Wilson, to not post anything from the WPA. Their letter or manifesto is a better word, if you ask me, is deeply insulting to all of us American players who gave our very lifeblood for our great sport. The only so-called world championships they will honor are ones promoted and sanctioned by them? Give me a f---ing break. You all know what's next. Qualify only in Europe or Asia and the "invited" few's numbers become less and less and on and on ad nauseum.
These arrogant creeps disgust me and all of you should feel the same way.
Ok, I have a proposal for everyone who really, really loves pool. I'll take these cretons on, glad to do it but I'm going to need some help. I'm starting an Org. for One Pocket, Bank Pool and 14.1. I'm pretty sure I can raise $100,000 from interested business because when everything is said and done, they'll (including me and my family pool room) suffer too. I plan a series of events in 09' where I'll do my level best to get Pat
Fleming and Accu-stats to come and film matches, just like the old days. Pat's quality commentators, too, would be there. Look, the longer Mitch and Alan do commentary and Barry Hearn and Matt Braun do 8 man invitationals, we'll all suffer. Charlie Williams is a joke, too. I can't forget him.
All right, I'm ready. Light into me all you want. This has to done and it looks like it's me who has to do it.

How's this for maybe what they'd send to me? "Mr. Mathews, while we're aware of your many accomplishments, it has come to our attention that your four World One Pocket titles were from events not featuring any European players and two of them didn't have the word world in them and none of the four were sanctioned by us, the only recognized body in pool."
Click to expand...



I agree with Grady 100%, What I like about Grady is he holds his ground. Some might say its complaining but thats not the case. Grady has a good point here plain and simple. This isnt the time to criticize Grady. And on that note I have nothing but respect for Grady-he might come off a bit harsh from time to time, but I know the man behind the keyboard and I'm damn proud to call him a friend!!!!!! its just his style on the keyboard, it truely dosent reflect his personality-and i'm not a kiss ass, I have pleanty of friends who play better than him, or are more famous etc., I respect Grady for what he has done, Anyone wwho has been to one of his tournments will clearly understand me.
 
FWIW, I've never been a fan of centralized monopolies. That's why I don't want to see billiard sports in the Olympics. That strengthens and bureaucratizes a centralized monopoly.

Anyone can run a World Championship, but only the ones that attract the biggest fields and best players will be held with high regard by the pundits.

Good luck to rival events / organizations. I hope they work out some better ways to present and market the games. An organization that does this the best has a good future.

Anyway, that's my take ;) Good luck with the events Grady!

Colin
 
Grady said:
In the name of pool, I beg you Mr. Wilson, to not post anything from the WPA. Their letter or manifesto is a better word, if you ask me, is deeply insulting to all of us American players who gave our very lifeblood for our great sport. The only so-called world championships they will honor are ones promoted and sanctioned by them? Give me a f---ing break. You all know what's next. Qualify only in Europe or Asia and the "invited" few's numbers become less and less and on and on ad nauseum.
These arrogant creeps disgust me and all of you should feel the same way.
Ok, I have a proposal for everyone who really, really loves pool. I'll take these cretons on, glad to do it but I'm going to need some help. I'm starting an Org. for One Pocket, Bank Pool and 14.1. I'm pretty sure I can raise $100,000 from interested business because when everything is said and done, they'll (including me and my family pool room) suffer too. I plan a series of events in 09' where I'll do my level best to get Pat
Fleming and Accu-stats to come and film matches, just like the old days. Pat's quality commentators, too, would be there. Look, the longer Mitch and Alan do commentary and Barry Hearn and Matt Braun do 8 man invitationals, we'll all suffer. Charlie Williams is a joke, too. I can't forget him.
All right, I'm ready. Light into me all you want. This has to done and it looks like it's me who has to do it.

How's this for maybe what they'd send to me? "Mr. Mathews, while we're aware of your many accomplishments, it has come to our attention that your four World One Pocket titles were from events not featuring any European players and two of them didn't have the word world in them and none of the four were sanctioned by us, the only recognized body in pool."
Click to expand...

By all means "take them on" but are you clear what the objectives of the proposed new 'org' would be and how you would plan to achieve those objectives?

There isn't a lot of substance in the above post on the subject of future alternative means of identifying/recognising world champions for people to get behind.

Justifiable indignance at an apparent WPA slight of past achievements is one thing which it is quite easy for people to sympathise with hence the multitude of posts basically saying "right on!" to that, few could or would disagree with the spirit of that. The WPA have certainly shot themselves in the foot on that count, no question. The future identification of world champions is quite another matter.

A vague suggestion that you will organise a series of pool events in USA in three specific disciplines only which will in some way challenge the WPA's future right to define world champions in those or other disciplines isn't going to cut it once the whooping and waving about the insult to past champions dies down. Your strange apparent implication that the quality of filming and commentating on events somehow places a merit value on the champions which that event produces is in particular almost surreal.

Fully appreciate it's just an idea at the moment "to take them on" but a start in seeking support might be to explain in general terms at least what features of the participant list and/or the qualifying procedures in your series of events do you anticipate would lead to more pool enthusiasts worldwide considering your champions to be any more world champions than than the victors in any equivalent WPA sanctioned world championship?

Or perhaps you mean "take them on" in the sense that you will simply organise a series of events that will be more attractive to the public and to the players than the WPA equivalent but not even purport to call itself a world championship?

Don't get me wrong, not in any way anti what you might like to to do, quite the reverse.........but you perhaps have to come to terms with the reality that one of the very reasons why the WPA are today in a position to do exactly what's annoying you (and others and not just in USA) so much is because you and your peers sat on your behinds and adopted the tunnel visioned view that the world would forever simply come to USA for pool and would forever be guided by USA legends as regards who can and cannot be validly considered world champions. If you are going to sit up and take notice now you're going to need a little more than a bit of grumping about being slighted in order to garner the support needed to challenge an entrenched organisation with established tentacles in every corner of the globe.
 
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This is the time, people...

memikey said:
By all means "take them on" but are you clear what the objectives of the proposed new 'org' would be and how you would plan to achieve those objectives?

There isn't a lot of substance in the above post on the subject of future alternative means of identifying/recognising world champions for people to get behind.

Justifiable indignance at an apparent WPA slight of past achievements is one thing which it is quite easy for people to sympathise with hence the multitude of posts basically saying "right on!" to that, few could or would disagree with the spirit of that. The WPA have certainly shot themselves in the foot on that count, no question. The future identification of world champions is quite another matter.

A vague suggestion that you will organise a series of pool events in USA in three specific disciplines only which will in some way challenge the WPA's future right to define world champions in those or other disciplines isn't going to cut it once the whooping and waving about the insult to past champions dies down. Your strange apparent implication that the quality of filming and commentating on events somehow places a merit value on the champions which that event produces is in particular almost surreal.

Fully appreciate it's just an idea at the moment "to take them on" but a start in seeking support might be to explain in general terms at least what features of the participant list and/or the qualifying procedures in your series of events do you anticipate would lead to more pool enthusiasts worldwide considering your champions to be any more world champions than than the victors in any equivalent WPA sanctioned world championship?

Or perhaps you mean "take them on" in the sense that you will simply organise a series of events that will be more attractive to the public and to the players than the WPA equivalent but not even purport to call itself a world championship?

Don't get me wrong, not in any way anti what you might like to to do, quite the reverse.........but you perhaps have to come to terms with the reality that one of the very reasons why the WPA are today in a position to do exactly what's annoying you (and others and not just in USA) so much is because you and your peers sat on your behinds and adopted the tunnel visioned view that the world would forever simply come to USA for pool and would forever be guided by USA legends as regards who can and cannot be validly considered world champions. If you are going to sit up and take notice now you're going to need a little more than a bit of grumping about being slighted in order to garner the support needed to challenge an entrenched organisation with established tentacles in every corner of the globe.
Click to expand...

I think the time is now to make something happen for cuesports on the world stage. You have the pinoy's having a problem with "leadership" in their country. You have the WPA making decisions for all the people that play or are involved in cuesports. How many Americans are on the board of directors of the WPA? Who is there supporting our interests for this country? There are a lot of people on this forum that have been involved in pool for 25 years +. I propose that we as people in America form an association including (in no particular order) Jay Helfert, JohnnyT, memikey, (even though he is in another country, he has a good grasp of the situation) Fatboy, Grady, Allen Hopkins, Mike Sigel, and Terry Ardeno. There are others as well, but I like the way these men think and how their knowledge of pool in this country works. Once all the people involved come to a position on how things should be run, we petition WPA for a place on the board so as to have a say in the proceedings concerning America's place in cuesport community. IMO

Dwight
 
You can "designate" anyone you please to be a World Champion, if you are a sanctioning body. Just look at what has happened in boxing with all their various associations. I have no problem with the world champions listed by the WPA. They all won titles over strong fields and deserve their honors.

But I also have been a witness to many other so called World Championships during the last 40 years and let me tell you, there are some real good players missing from the WPA lists. A few who deserve recognition (that I saw play and win major championships) include HAROLD WORST, LUTHER LASSITER, Joe Balsis, Irving Crane, Eddie Kelly, BUDDY HALL, STEVE MIZERAK, MIKE SIGEL, Allen Hopkins and Jim Rempe. The ones who I hi-lited are among the greatest players of all time. And the other ones aren't far behind. ALL are World Champions in my book!

Maybe the tournaments they won weren't sanctioned by any organization, but they had to beat all the greatest players on Earth to win them. That should count for something.
 
billiardspro said:
Grady
The old days are over let it go...If you helped pool in america as much as you complain about it everyone in the world would be playing.
Click to expand...

Sometimes it better to say nothing, than to open your mouth and prove you have no clue!!!!!!!;)
 
Dwight.......the WPA allow only one body to join and speak on behalf of each region. For North America it is BCA. Ed Smith of BCA is (or was, I don't know current status) on the WPA board

BCA are supposed to be the voice of North America on matters appertaining to WPA. They are supposed to be (and probably are) pursuing most of what you envisage other parties doing. The BCA apparently formed a specially elected committee in October last year with the goal of uniting the pro player organizations and youth programmes in North America to participate more effectively in the global growth of billiards as a sport. This was directly related to the subject of the WPA.

Their committee consisted of :-

Ivan lee, Fran Crimi, Ed Smith (BCA)
Dale Brimscombe (CBSA)
Laura Smith (BEF)
Jeff D'Olezal (NWPA)
Frank Alvarez (UPA)
Dawn Hopkins (WPBA)

As a separate matter I think Bob Jewett has supplied special technical rule drafting assistance to WPA also.
 
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Have a tournament. Give it a name. Whoever wins it was the winner on that day.

The only prestiege will come from the strength of the field and the history on which the tournament rests. After 40 or 50 years of consitently strong fields the tournament will have some prestiege and winning might be worth of the title world championship.

Is the winner of the Derby City all around the world champion? That's about as close as you can come, imo, and it still doesn't ring quite true. Hold the same tournament the next month and the next month and there will be different winners. Prior winners might not even place.

The title "World Champion" just does not mean much... not to me at least. It just describes who won a match on that particular day.

So, again, I say.. just hold a great tournament. Call it what you want and call the tournament winner the champ if you want.

Or.. hold a tour and have a points race. Now we're talking consistent winners. Maybe even with strong fields. Like the PGA $$$$ winner list.
 
Me, not an American, just stand outside the fence and watch the antics. For anyone not American it is a fascinating show.

American posters b**** about problems of their disorganized sport, but refuse to create any organization that would bring order out of chaos. But many will create their own organizations, adding to the chaos

Reminds me of monkeys in the zoo, hurling excrement at each other and anyone within range.
 
Many sports have single event world championships

Many sports have single event world championships and the champion is recognized as the current world champion until that event is held again or even another event that doesn't call itself a world championship but is pretty universally recognized. They named this event after an event held in a small country between warring city states many centuries ago. It is full of politics and corruption, cheating, every wrong you can name but yet if you want to be accepted as the best in the world that is where you have to be at every four years for many athletes. In the odd two years a world champion is crowned at a world championship, the other two years a world champion is crowned at this event that isn't even called a world championship. Isn't that odd?

Grady is absolutely correct that if he calls his event the World Championships and it is well attended and well documented it will gain respect. In pool as in many sports there are only a handful of players considered at the top of the game at any one time. Get most of those players to an event and enough more to fill out a field and the event is indeed worthy of calling a world championship. Of course I seem to recall someone with money and the power it brings putting on a single match with an over the hill woman and an over the hill man calling it a world championship and the winner the world champion and best in the world. No doubt many outside the sport gave some creditability to the claim too. It was on TV, it must be true!

Hu
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Here's a wild and crazy concept........


You want a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP????????


Make it an OPEN event and let the WORLD FIGHT IT OUT.....The best player wins.
Click to expand...

You mean to say it aint like this already?
Then the title is BS if even one good player is denied the chance to compete.
Perhaps the WPA used the WWF as its model as how to run its biz.
 
billiardspro said:
Would you back Mike vs John in a long race say like 1500 for $10,000...I dont think you would find to many takers to back Mike in that race. Prob not even his buddy kevin
Click to expand...
I don't know you, but you're probably a young fellow by your posts. YOU COULD STONE COLD BUST ME at this game when Mike was in his prime. Hell, you could win quite a bit, even now. I know it was a short race, but what does it take to convince you that Mike can play? Should've seen him in the 80's. Show some respect. I don't even like Mike. But..... Ah, fu#$ it. Show me $10,000 and just a little weight and ask John if he thinks he'll like it. I know Sigel will.
 
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BigDogatLarge said:
I think the time is now to make something happen for cuesports on the world stage. You have the pinoy's having a problem with "leadership" in their country. You have the WPA making decisions for all the people that play or are involved in cuesports. How many Americans are on the board of directors of the WPA? Who is there supporting our interests for this country? There are a lot of people on this forum that have been involved in pool for 25 years +. I propose that we as people in America form an association including (in no particular order) Jay Helfert, JohnnyT, memikey, (even though he is in another country, he has a good grasp of the situation) Fatboy, Grady, Allen Hopkins, Mike Sigel, and Terry Ardeno. There are others as well, but I like the way these men think and how their knowledge of pool in this country works. Once all the people involved come to a position on how things should be run, we petition WPA for a place on the board so as to have a say in the proceedings concerning America's place in cuesport community. IMO

Dwight
Click to expand...

North America has two out of eight members on the WPA Board of Directors :

Fran Crimi
Ed Smith

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=director
 
Scaramouche said:
Me, not an American, just stand outside the fence and watch the antics. For anyone not American it is a fascinating show.

American posters b**** about problems of their disorganized sport, but refuse to create any organization that would bring order out of chaos. But many will create their own organizations, adding to the chaos

Reminds me of monkeys in the zoo, hurling excrement at each other and anyone within range.
Click to expand...
Sadly this is where AMERICAN pool is at these days...having the WPA is good IMHO....but what's needed is people on there board looking out for the History of American pool, with their listing of "World Champions" it seems it hasn't been done...what's needed on THIS day is an organization for AMERICAN pool and their players...perhaps what Grady needs to do is go all the way an encompass all games in it...Keep these corrupt tours from flourishing and BOYCOTT them...
 
Grady said:
In the name of pool, I beg you Mr. Wilson, to not post anything from the WPA. Their letter or manifesto is a better word, if you ask me, is deeply insulting to all of us American players who gave our very lifeblood for our great sport. The only so-called world championships they will honor are ones promoted and sanctioned by them? Give me a f---ing break. You all know what's next. Qualify only in Europe or Asia and the "invited" few's numbers become less and less and on and on ad nauseum.
These arrogant creeps disgust me and all of you should feel the same way.
Ok, I have a proposal for everyone who really, really loves pool. I'll take these cretons on, glad to do it but I'm going to need some help. I'm starting an Org. for One Pocket, Bank Pool and 14.1. I'm pretty sure I can raise $100,000 from interested business because when everything is said and done, they'll (including me and my family pool room) suffer too. I plan a series of events in 09' where I'll do my level best to get Pat
Fleming and Accu-stats to come and film matches, just like the old days. Pat's quality commentators, too, would be there. Look, the longer Mitch and Alan do commentary and Barry Hearn and Matt Braun do 8 man invitationals, we'll all suffer. Charlie Williams is a joke, too. I can't forget him.
All right, I'm ready. Light into me all you want. This has to done and it looks like it's me who has to do it.

How's this for maybe what they'd send to me? "Mr. Mathews, while we're aware of your many accomplishments, it has come to our attention that your four World One Pocket titles were from events not featuring any European players and two of them didn't have the word world in them and none of the four were sanctioned by us, the only recognized body in pool."
Click to expand...


Grady,
The biggest difference between you and the WPA is that you are a real bonafide lover of our great sport and not a politician.

As I said on another thread, say for example that American style football (the NFL) started in the USA and the Super Bowel (world championship) has been played exclusively here in America.
Then say that in about 50-100 years from now, American style football has grown to be wildly popular all over the world. Then, in about 50-100 yrs from now, a new football sanctioning body with its genesis in Europe or Asia starts a new football federation and proclaims that all previous Super Bowel winners are not legit because this new organization did not sanction them. That, in a nutshell, is what is going on here with the WPA.

For them to even remotely or vaguely imply that such storied champions such as Ralph Greenleaf, Frank Taberski, Jimmy Caras, Willie Mosconi, Joe Balsis, Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, Earl Strickland & company have not earned their World Champion titles is an arrogant and totally disrespectful view to hold. How, pray tell, will they ever gain credibility and fan backing with such preposterous thinking?

If the powers that be at the WPA were really lovers and fans of our great sport, they would have a much higher regard for the sport's rich history and the great champions of the past. But apparently, even though they claim to be THE foremost world body of pool, they have never heard of such disciplines as One Pocket or Bank pool. In the small world of the WPA, pool (9 ball) started with them in 1990. Your 4 World Championships mean nothing to them. Other legendary champions unfortunate enough to make their mark in pool before 1990 did it all for nothing....And we're supposed to buy into that and back them with our support???

Maybe the BCA (who has done next to nothing to sponsor World Championships) can induct them into the Hall of Fame for their meritorious service to pooldom by inventing 9 ball in 1990!
__________________
 
Terry Ardeno said:
Grady,
The biggest difference between you and the WPA is that you are a real bonafide lover of our great sport and not a politician.

As I said on another thread, say for example that American style football (the NFL) started in the USA and the Super Bowel (world championship) has been played exclusively here in America.
Then say that in about 50-100 years from now, American style football has grown to be wildly popular all over the world. Then, in about 50-100 yrs from now, a new football sanctioning body with its genesis in Europe or Asia starts a new football federation and proclaims that all previous Super Bowel winners are not legit because this new organization did not sanction them. That, in a nutshell, is what is going on here with the WPA.

For them to even remotely or vaguely imply that such storied champions such as Ralph Greenleaf, Frank Taberski, Jimmy Caras, Willie Mosconi, Joe Balsis, Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, Earl Strickland & company have not earned their World Champion titles is an arrogant and totally disrespectful view to hold. How, pray tell, will they ever gain credibility and fan backing with such preposterous thinking?

If the powers that be at the WPA were really lovers and fans of our great sport, they would have a much higher regard for the sport's rich history and the great champions of the past. But apparently, even though they claim to be THE foremost world body of pool, they have never heard of such disciplines as One Pocket or Bank pool. In the small world of the WPA, pool (9 ball) started with them in 1990. Your 4 World Championships mean nothing to them. Other legendary champions unfortunate enough to make their mark in pool before 1990 did it all for nothing....And we're supposed to buy into that and back them with our support???

Maybe the BCA (who has done next to nothing to sponsor World Championships) can induct them into the Hall of Fame for their meritorious service to pooldom by inventing 9 ball in 1990!
__________________
Click to expand...
Great post Terry but one little typo can bring all of the "big a-holes" out of the woodwork.:smile:

Super Bowl<-- championship football
Super Bowel<-- extraordinary colon
 
Ktown D said:
Great post Terry but one little typo can bring all of the "big a-holes" out of the woodwork.:smile:

Super Bowl<-- championship football
Super Bowel<-- extraordinary colon
Click to expand...

Can't


stop


laughing.


Need


help.
 
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