B Player vs. Pro speed

[Mr. Wiggles]

Hand span!

I have a general question?

What kinda of spot should a pro speed player give to a
B rated (APA SL 5 or 6) in order to be a fair game say
for a buck a rack without getting slaughtered?

ie....Would it be wild 6 and last two, wild 5 out and the breaks..

I ask this because of the vast knowledge base we have here..

The hand span, moving cue the width of your hand layed on table is a great spot. One per game or two per set, or any way you can get. Takes away some of opp defense. Hook yourself or get on wrong side and use your hand span. Gets you off the rail. Many possibilities. Could be opponent says only if you hook yourself not if I hook you. Can't be used on money ball. Can't be used for hill hill. Many ways to customize the hand span.

 

[poormanintexas]

The point

The whole point of the thread is i was thinking after last night, What would B player need to play a true pro?
Last night i gave a very strong b player the wild 6 and last 2 for a buck a rack, and let me tell you it was tough. I am no pro, aparently not even close but after 7 hours (yes 7 hours lol) they were only up 10 games, first hour i was up 10, then the sharking from there friends and at the end i came back from 20 down to 10 down, i just wanted a gauge to base my findings on for myself. I have much more work to do...:thumbup:

 

[hang-the-9]

Why are people equating money odds with games on the wire? A pro giving a B 4-1 on the money in an otherwise even game is robbing. A B player is not going to beat a pro even 20% of the time. Even 5% would be a stretch.

Where I play the game spot would be 6 games on 11. I think the pro player has the best of it in that matchup (depending on the pro).

Edit: I'm referring to playing sets, not on a game-by-game basis. If you are betting on each rack, then perhaps 4-1 on the money is more reasonable.

A 6 game spot to 11 is pretty much the same as a 4-1 money spot.

Less actually. With a 4-1 money spot you just need to win one game for every 4 of his to keep even, with a 6 game spot to 11 you need to win one game for every 2 of his to not lose ( you race to 5, he goes to 11 ).

 

[Donny Lutz]

APA ratings?

A 6 game spot to 11 is pretty much the same as a 4-1 money spot.

Less actually. With a 4-1 money spot you just need to win one game for every 4 of his to keep even, with a 6 game spot to 11 you need to win one game for every 2 of his to not lose ( you race to 5, he goes to 11 ).

I don't know how you can seriously rate a player's skill by his/her APA rating.

A few years ago, I watched a 5 in 9-ball run 32 shots in a row in the play-offs, and the Director said he wasn't any more than a 5. Another player on that team was a 6, and could barely run four balls with BIH.

The APA generally seeks every way to raise your average (including arbitrary decisions by the LD), so that you have to break up your team into two teams.

I once had a player lose two consecutive matches in the play-offs and the LD raised him two levels before the finals...this forced me to sit out the match for Vegas, and the player mentioned above lost his next match as well... and we lost the title.

 

[devorator]

just me...

To have a pro/world beater playing me all the time I'll pay him 50$ for a set to 15 every day just to learn from his experience. I am a B player maybe more maybe less depends on how tired I am..
Tryin' to get a handicap advantage because you are lower level than him won;t improve our game, ever...and when you said 1$/game I think that was your main goal isn't it?
My 2 cents...

 

[poormanintexas]

I agree

I agree Donny, There are people who really try and play well and do there best and there are sandbaggers. I know a 4 in apa that can put a 3 pack on you (sandbagging) i also know a 9 in apa that can not run more than 6 balls. So the apa rateing system is definately flawed.

 

[poormanintexas]

To have a pro/world beater playing me all the time I'll pay him 50$ for a set to 15 every day just to learn from his experience. I am a B player maybe more maybe less depends on how tired I am..
Tryin' to get a handicap advantage because you are lower level than him won;t improve our game, ever...and when you said 1$/game I think that was your main goal isn't it?
My 2 cents...

No not exactly, Im not the B player i was referencing.

 

[hang-the-9]

I don't know how you can seriously rate a player's skill by his/her APA rating.

A few years ago, I watched a 5 in 9-ball run 32 shots in a row in the play-offs, and the Director said he wasn't any more than a 5. Another player on that team was a 6, and could barely run four balls with BIH.

The APA generally seeks every way to raise your average (including arbitrary decisions by the LD), so that you have to break up your team into two teams.

I once had a player lose two consecutive matches in the play-offs and the LD raised him two levels before the finals...this forced me to sit out the match for Vegas, and the player mentioned above lost his next match as well... and we lost the title.

If a player is ranked by his actual ability rather than sandbagging, APA rankings are roughly right, you can't really go by nightly performance. I had really bad nights where I could not see the balls and got crushed in league, winning one game of like 6, and I have a 60% game winning record overall.

A 5 is a C, 6 can be a low B, depending on the area. No way would a 5 be able to run several racks of balls, maybe a once in a year thing for them if that.

 

[TSW]

A 6 game spot to 11 is pretty much the same as a 4-1 money spot.

Less actually. With a 4-1 money spot you just need to win one game for every 4 of his to keep even, with a 6 game spot to 11 you need to win one game for every 2 of his to not lose ( you race to 5, he goes to 11 ).

If you are betting on a game-by-game basis a 4-1 money spot sounds about right. Might even favor the B player.

If you are betting on an even race to 11, a 4-1 money spot heavily favors the pro player. The B player only wins if he can beat the pro even up in a long race. That's going to happen very rarely. The longer the race, the more it favors the better player.

If these two players played a number of races, the B player could lose every one by a score of 11-3 or so. If the B player is getting 4-1 on the money on a game-by-game basis, he wins. If the B player is getting 4-1 on the money on a set-by-set basis, he never comes close.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I have a general question?

What kinda of spot should a pro speed player give to a
B rated (APA SL 5 or 6) in order to be a fair game say
for a buck a rack without getting slaughtered?

ie....Would it be wild 6 and last two, wild 5 out and the breaks..

I ask this because of the vast knowledge base we have here..

First, you must play in the strongest APA area in the country. I play in Northeast MA, and most 5's are D+ players, maybe C- at best. 6's maybe start to approach C level, and the really skilled sandbaggers might be C+. We have an APA 7/9 who plays as a C+ on a local tour. I spot him 7-4 lol, and I'm an "A-".

I recently had this discussion with some local pro speed players. They said that *I* should get the last 5 and the breaks for a fair game (for a top pro). So these APA 5/6 you are talking about should be getting something pretty ridiculous. This, of course, is assuming you are looking for a fair, 50/50 type of game. It is possible that "pro" in your area has a slightly different meaning as well.

Just my $0.02

KMRUNOUT

 

[Banks]

4-1 on the games or the $, imo.

That sounds good. The pro should be up, but the B's got a chance to make it work if he gets a few games. I usually use a ratio spot with a few APA friends when playing 8.

lol Absolutely not in most areas....I'm an APA 7 in 8 ball with a lifetime win percentage of 81% and I consider myself a C player in Iowa.

I'm a 7/9, considered a local A, but feel more like a B on most days, which would probably also translate into C in the grand scheme of things.

Ill tell you exactly a fair spot, as Im a B player and Ive played a pro for money before. I played Max Eberle all night for $100 a set. I got 4 games on the wire going to 8, and the last 3. At the end of the night, he was up 1 set. Great guy to gamble with and an amazing player.

By the way, it all started with me letting him play the 9 ball and 10 ball ghost for $40 a rack. The ghost stood no chance, and I lost about $340 that way. I figured, fvck the ghost, Ill just play him myself. :wink:

I played Eddie Carrido(good WA player) a cheap set last month, race to 7. I was getting the call-8. He ran out 4 of the racks, 2 I didn't have a shot and the one in which I did, I dogged my leave so badly after making the first ball that it really didn't matter. The lamest part of it all was him asking if I wanted to play it back, but refusing to change the spot at all.

 

[cleary]

Why are people equating money odds with games on the wire? A pro giving a B 4-1 on the money in an otherwise even game is robbing. A B player is not going to beat a pro even 20% of the time. Even 5% would be a stretch.

Where I play the game spot would be 6 games on 11. I think the pro player has the best of it in that matchup (depending on the pro).

Edit: I'm referring to playing sets, not on a game-by-game basis. If you are betting on each rack, then perhaps 4-1 on the money is more reasonable.

The money odds would be if you're play $X/game. $25/game vs. $100/game. That sounds about right. A B player should win about 1 in 4 games on average.

 

[TSW]

The money odds would be if you're play $X/game. $25/game vs. $100/game. That sounds about right. A B player should win about 1 in 4 games on average.

Per game, I agree. Also it's easy to vary the money odds if the game is off base. A lot of this depends on the level of the pro.

 

[bbb]

curious you guys opinion of this
if as the b player you are trying to test yourself
play him
you get to break and get ball in hand
as a b you shouldnt be beating the ghost
yet should get out or have a combo often enough to get you back for more
once you get into a safety battle the pro should win and be out
so you probably will still lose but you get to keep trying to get out and/or have the opportunity to play the first safety

 

[RunoutJJ]

6 out and the breaks.


Or 5 games in a race to 11

 

[hang-the-9]

If you are betting on a game-by-game basis a 4-1 money spot sounds about right. Might even favor the B player.

If you are betting on an even race to 11, a 4-1 money spot heavily favors the pro player. The B player only wins if he can beat the pro even up in a long race. That's going to happen very rarely. The longer the race, the more it favors the better player.

If these two players played a number of races, the B player could lose every one by a score of 11-3 or so. If the B player is getting 4-1 on the money on a game-by-game basis, he wins. If the B player is getting 4-1 on the money on a set-by-set basis, he never comes close.

Yes, per set the money handicap is not very good, we're comparing different things it seems hehe.

I guess this would have to be matched up in money won at the end of the day. If you play per game, at the end of the day in 4-1 you would be close to wins in money, if you play per set, at the end of the day you should be close to wins in sets, if you play per game and get a ball spot, you will be close in games won. That's probably better comparing that way than just a straight money vs balls vs games on the wire handicaps.

 

[RunoutJJ]

.................................

 

[PoolBum]

For $1 a rack the B player should be spotting the pro.

 

[RFranklin]

Just Practice

I dont think a SL 5-6 coud do anything with a real pro unless the spot was beyond rediculous. I watched D Mills play an SL 9 in 10 ball for $50 a set on 9 foot Diamond. It was a 10-4 race with called 5 ball. I dont think I saw the guy get two games. I felt sorry for him because when Mills didnt have a shot, the other guy was kicking two rails. It was an eye opener because I have always felt like I could at least take a couple off someone like that but if they are playing for anything real..... forget it.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Tiger Woods would spot me for a dollar a hole.

For $1 a rack the B player should be spotting the pro.

I wonder what Tiger Woods would spot me for a dollar a hole.....hmmm

Could play "4 ahead" for a gallon of gas.