BIH in 14.1????????

C

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
In Mike Zuglans 148 ball run dvd from Accu-Stats, Nick Varner suggest trying BIH in 14.1 to speed up the game.

Was this ever tried? I don't like the idea of 1 foul ball in hand, but perhaps 2 fouls isn't a bad idea. Could garner some interest.

I think 14.1 could make a major comeback, it is exciting to watch live because ANYTHING can happen. On top of that every person, from banger to player, I have introduced to the game has really enjoyed the game. Furthermore many of my friends who do not play seriously will play 14.1 whenever they are at the pool room, and are introducing it to other people.
 
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BIH anywhere on the table has not been tried in any major tournament that I know of. I have that tape as well and was kind of surprised when Nick said that. I have to disagree with him on this one. I think the time honored tradition of the game is part of what makes it intriuging, and changing the rules would not help in any way. Players want to try and figure out how the hell Zuglan did that run, how Willie did those runs, etc...etc...using the traditional rules.
 
Is nothing sacred? The thought of that hit a nerve when I heard it suggested.

Speeding up the game? Why would you want to speed up something enjoyable? We play it because we like it, not because we are trying to get done with it. Its like finding ways to speed up sex, makes no sense.

If people are bored watching it, then let them go watch their 9 ball matches instead.

Why would anyone want to reduce the game to the likes of 9 ball? I say let em continue to screw up 9 ball and leave the only real game left pure.

They sped up chess ya know ... You know what they got? Checkers!

Grrrrrrrrr the thought of that angers me. The three foul rule is a huge part of the game's strategy.

I have an idea .. we can really speed the game up. Lets just flip a coin and forget the whole damned game. It would save money on tables, cues, geez, think of all the savings .... Shoot, we could get through a double elimination tourney with 64 players in 10 minutes. :speechless:
 
Speeding up the game isn't just for making a viable tv product but it is also meant to make larger tournaments easier to run. If they are easier to run then there will be more of them.

But I also wouldn't want to lose the tactics involved in taking fouls, which is why I suggested an amendment that we could do 2 fouls ball in hand.

Anyways, I thought it was an interesting suggestion that could be discussed. No need to lose our cool over it.
 
Cameron Smith said:
Speeding up the game isn't just for making a viable tv product but it is also meant to make larger tournaments easier to run. If they are easier to run then there will be more of them.

But I also wouldn't want to lose the tactics involved in taking fouls, which is why I suggested an amendment that we could do 2 fouls ball in hand.

Anyways, I thought it was an interesting suggestion that could be discussed. No need to lose our cool over it.
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First off American TV viewers are not interested in watching
pool on TV - at least, not in enough numbers to make much
improvement in the viability of the game.

IMHO - 9Ball style BIH would be detremental to the game, and
would not bring in significanyly more viewers.

The final 2 BCA 14.1 National Championships<1977-ish>, played in
Dayton, had a sorta BIH rule.

They modified the 3-in-a-row to: incomming shooter gets BIH
instead of fouling player has to do opening break.

Like the Dayton location, the BIH versionn didn't last.

Dale
 
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IMO, the game of Straight Pool should not be changed to please TV viewers that couldn't give a $hit less about the game to begin with. There is nothing wrong with 14.1, it is a beautiful game just the way it is.
 
Speed it up.

If you want to speed it up, why not have a shot clock? I'm thinking like a 45 second shot clock. Nothing erks me more then watching my opponent agonize over every shot. Takes the fun out of the game for me. Just shoot already! :angry:
 
When Sigel did his 150 and out against Zuglan, there was a 45 second shot clock. Didn't seem to bother him now did it?
 
A game's only requirements is that it is enjoyable for the players. Pleasing nonparticipants isn't and shouldn't be a factor. If someone wants to argue it's more fun for the players to have BIH, that might make more sense. But straight pool's rules are more about being as fair as possible, not as fun as possible.

People can get bored to death watching backgammon, uno, or golf, or even action-packed stuff like tennis if they're simply not into it. It's inevitable that people won't be into straight, and no amount of diddling will fix that. That's because it's an inherently slow game: you must play to at least 150ish to separate the top players (and even that might not be enough), and shooting 150 balls into a hole takes time. A minimum of 20 minutes if you're Luc Salvas but more realistically 60-80 if you stop to chalk, rerack carefully, and plan patterns. There is no way around the time involved to shoot all those balls (even with BIH) and no option to shorten the amount of points needed (as a game to 50 would be meaningless between top players).
 
mworkman said:
If you want to speed it up, why not have a shot clock? I'm thinking like a 45 second shot clock. Nothing erks me more then watching my opponent agonize over every shot. Takes the fun out of the game for me. Just shoot already! :angry:
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LOL, I don't believe I'm even going to mention this, cause even I hate my own idea of it. :)

To expand on the idea of a shot clock, how about a chess clock? Each player has ( for example) an hour and XXX to finish a 150 point match. Their time is their own however they deem necessary to use it.

The chess clock will track time in its entirety. The player that misses, hits the clock to start the other incoming player's time.

Should time expire, make the first offense a 15 point foul, add 15 minutes to the clock, and the second offense is loss of game.

Now forget I mentioned that .. cause I hate it too! :grin:
 
The reason 14.1 has such an attraction is that the rule set is excellent, and has stood the test of time; few could argue that it is not the best game to determine a champion.

Having said that, your BIH idea has been used by instructors (at least Mark Wilson has used it) as a teaching/practice tool. It allows a doofus novice (me) to compete with an expert player (him), allowing the novice more chances to pocket balls (the novice gets BIH at the start of every one of his innings, the expert plays by traditional rules).

Another great method for teaching is Scotch doubles, where the novice and the expert alternate shots, and discuss strategy as they go......damn, this reminds me I need to get my rear to St. Louis for a lesson with Mark Wilson.....I need help...
 
Williebetmore said:
Another great method for teaching is Scotch doubles, where the novice and the expert alternate shots, and discuss strategy as they go......damn, this reminds me I need to get my rear to St. Louis for a lesson with Mark Wilson.....I need help...
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Willie : You ought to get in the car with Elvis and come up to Red Shoes on March 21 for a handicapped 14.1 tournament. Bobby Hunter won the last one but a couple of guys came within 6 balls of beating him. Bob Cozzolino came in second in that tournament. Elvi had some sessions with Bob. Customqs from AZB took a piece of first place in the one the month before. Sailor says he is going to try to make it and bring a few of his students with him.
 
Blackjack said:
IMO, the game of Straight Pool should not be changed to please TV viewers that couldn't give a $hit less about the game to begin with. There is nothing wrong with 14.1, it is a beautiful game just the way it is.
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exactly! I don't see a BIH rule as being a good thing.
 
3andstop said:
Is nothing sacred? The thought of that hit a nerve when I heard it suggested.

Speeding up the game? Why would you want to speed up something enjoyable? We play it because we like it, not because we are trying to get done with it. Its like finding ways to speed up sex, makes no sense.

If people are bored watching it, then let them go watch their 9 ball matches instead.

Why would anyone want to reduce the game to the likes of 9 ball? I say let em continue to screw up 9 ball and leave the only real game left pure.

They sped up chess ya know ... You know what they got? Checkers!

Grrrrrrrrr the thought of that angers me. The three foul rule is a huge part of the game's strategy.

I have an idea .. we can really speed the game up. Lets just flip a coin and forget the whole damned game. It would save money on tables, cues, geez, think of all the savings .... Shoot, we could get through a double elimination tourney with 64 players in 10 minutes. :speechless:
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What he said...and BlackJack
 
3andstop said:
LOL, I don't believe I'm even going to mention this, cause even I hate my own idea of it. :)

To expand on the idea of a shot clock, how about a chess clock? Each player has ( for example) an hour and XXX to finish a 150 point match. Their time is their own however they deem necessary to use it.

The chess clock will track time in its entirety. The player that misses, hits the clock to start the other incoming player's time.

Should time expire, make the first offense a 15 point foul, add 15 minutes to the clock, and the second offense is loss of game.

Now forget I mentioned that .. cause I hate it too! :grin:
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I know they have used shot clocks in some tournaments and I like the idea.

Wait until you see the Harriman/ Schmidt match from Derby City. On some shots, one of the players took about 4 minutes on one shot and nothing was quick. On some sequences after the previous shot, I'd think, ok, he's got the 4 ball. 2 or 3 minutes later that is what he would shoot. I do realize that at that level a lot more goes into it than just making the ball, but too much time per shot does not an enjoyable game make.
 
dmgwalsh said:
I know they have used shot clocks in some tournaments and I like the idea.

Wait until you see the Harriman/ Schmidt match from Derby City. On some shots, one of the players took about 4 minutes on one shot and nothing was quick. On some sequences after the previous shot, I'd think, ok, he's got the 4 ball. 2 or 3 minutes later that is what he would shoot. I do realize that at that level a lot more goes into it than just making the ball, but too much time per shot does not an enjoyable game make.
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They should implement shot clocks, but clock should stop when the player is shooting. If they get back up the clock continues from where it left off. I've seen many matches where players had to rush their routines or shots because they didn't have enough time left. I don't like seeing matches being decided by anything else other than quality of play.
 
Tell you what, if the concern is speeding up the game, try BIH for one-pocket first and let me know how that works out.

Besides, what exactly does he mean by having BIH in straight pool? I haven't seen the video so I'm not sure what Varner might be talking about. Straight pool already has ball in hand for cue ball scratches, it's just limited to the the area behind the head string rather than anywhere on the table. So he wants to add BIH for all table fouls? Yeah, table fouls are so frequent in straight pool that BIH will greatly speed up the game.:wink:

Surely he wasn't suggesting BIH after any missed shot and eliminating safety play altogether? He should be impeached from the HOF for that.

Actually, in my dream scenario for a world 14.1 title, the final would be a marathon session. I would have the final match play to 526 points. It would be great for the ticket buying fans because the match would go several hours and would require skill and endurance. And both players would have more opportunity to exhibit their skills. Besides, the idea of playing to 526 points is just cool. :cool: And BTW, it would pay the winner $1MM.
 
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I being a new player to 14.1 would not like to see this. Of course i could watch 1 pkt for hours and hours on TV. I dont mind seeing slow action.
 
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