Bill Incordona vs John Hager $10000

ironman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bill and John Drew are playing right now at Diamonds Billiards {the new room in Dallas} for $10000/ The match is 1-pocket, 7 ahead.

They are in the middle of the last game of the evening and will resume play tomorrow evening. Right now Bill 3 games ahead. Good action!

I will post more as I get the long distance report.
 
Nice to hear about Hager.

ironman said:
Bill and John Drew are playing right now at Diamonds Billiards {the new room in Dallas} for $10000/ The match is 1-pocket, 7 ahead.

They are in the middle of the last game of the evening and will resume play tomorrow evening. Right now Bill 3 games ahead. Good action!

I will post more as I get the long distance report.

John Hager is a stand out guy. I'm glad to hear he is playing. Last I heard he had health issues or in some type of accident. Correct? I'd like to see him book a winner, the last big set I saw him play was unbelivable how he lost it after being on 9 playing 10 ahead. It truely to this date is the unluckiest turn around i've ever seen in pool to this date. You should ask him about it.
 
1on1pooltournys said:
John Hager is a stand out guy. I'm glad to hear he is playing. Last I heard he had health issues or in some type of accident. Correct? I'd like to see him book a winner, the last big set I saw him play was unbelivable how he lost it after being on 9 playing 10 ahead. It truely to this date is the unluckiest turn around i've ever seen in pool to this date. You should ask him about it.

Evidently John's health is bac close to normal. He had suffered some sort of a Thyroid condition which effected his vision very badly, as I understnad it. The medication he took was a long ordeal. I too hope he is healthy.

I surely wish I were there.
 
I wonder how many games it takes to reach 7 ahead if both players are world class 1-pocket champs? It seems like it could all come down to the breaking rules... is this usually done with winner breaks?
 
CreeDo said:
I wonder how many games it takes to reach 7 ahead if both players are world class 1-pocket champs? It seems like it could all come down to the breaking rules... is this usually done with winner breaks?

Definitely alternate breaks.
 
CreeDo said:
I wonder how many games it takes to reach 7 ahead if both players are world class 1-pocket champs? It seems like it could all come down to the breaking rules... is this usually done with winner breaks?

As Jay said, it is alternating break.

How many games? That is a good one, but, they played for 8 hours on Saturday, and Billy is only 3 games ahead and very doubtful he will win 4 in a row on Sunday. Highly unlikely John would win 11 in a row either. It will likely take another 6 hours at least for Bill to win and more than that for John to win. So, who knows.
 
Ahead races are crazy?

I guess for 10K, it would have to be a multi-day kind of race. It just wouldn't feel like you got your money's worth otherwise :P

If I could go off-topic for a second...

I gotta admit, I don't understand 'ahead' races. With alternating breaks and two almost even players (ARE these guys almost even?), it seems like 7 ahead shouldn't happen unless fatigue is a factor. But it sounds like they get to take breaks and sleep. So if both players are close, who's to say if 7 ahead will ever happen? And if it does, does it really mean something or is just kind of a statistical fluke?

I'm thinking of the color of money match (race to 120 between efren and earl that was decided by only 3 games). Eventually efren won, but if they had decided to play an ahead race instead, the only guy who got ahead much was earl (by 8 racks). So if they had been playing 7-ahead, the 'wrong' guy would have won. And if they had played to 10 ahead they might have ended up playing for months constantly being stalemated.

I guess my point is, even the race to 120 wasn't enough to point out a clear cut winner in their case, and an 'ahead' race could easily have led either to either a 100 year stalemate or the wrong guy winning. It's even theoretically possible for the guy who gets 7 ahead to have actually won fewer games (as earl did after 120). I hate to think that this 10,000 bucks might actually just be pure gambling, like flipping a coin but with lots of hard work.

I was also wondering, how much big action (like 10,000) is happening in the usa (or anywhere for that matter) at any given moment. Are top players doing this kind of thing every day with each other or is 5-digit betting pretty rare? I haven't even seen a game played for thousands of dollars before (outside of tournaments) in my area. If I'm on the East Coast, where can I go to watch money games like this? Just new york, or also NJ and... FLA? boston?!
 
> Earl led in that match 104-87. Imagine having Efren's cods in the palm of your hand,only to turn around and have Efren get his hands up and grab you by the throat. To put this in simplest terms,if you use a coin under the rail to keep score,with the middle of the end rail as the even point,you are one game away from taking your opponent "around the world". If that had been an actual gambling match,it would have probably been a 15-ahead. Efren gets run over. I'm not bashing Efren either.

The Bill vs JDH matchup is pretty intriguing to me. John typically executes very well,and he better,otherwise Billy out-thinks or out-bets him. That might not work though,John likes to bet high and the 100 dollar window is always open for side action. There is NO WAY possible John knows more than Billy. Billy is also a pretty careful bettor,so he thinks he can out-move John or make him dog it,or his money would still be in his pocket. Tommy D.
 
CreeDo said:
but if they had decided to play an ahead race instead, the only guy who got ahead much was earl (by 8 racks). So if they had been playing 7-ahead, the 'wrong' guy would have won.

How do you figure? Gambling is always about who plays better over a set amount of time or games. If it had been 7 ahead, the "right" person would have won, as Earl played much better the first few days..


And if they had played to 10 ahead they might have ended up playing for months constantly being stalemated.

I take it you thought Earl and Efren played even back then? PA leeze. The only reason Earl came so close is because Efren dogged his arse off for a LONG period of time. When Efren saw the finish line approaching, he kicked it into gear, and Earl effectively got blown out at the end.

I guess my point is, even the race to 120 wasn't enough to point out a clear cut winner in their case

But it was. It was long enough for us to see Earl choke big time at the end. I think the way these two comport themselves today bears out that Efren has more staying power than Earl. This was born out in the race to 120. Seems pretty clear cut to me. I think that if it had been to 100, Efren would have woke up sooner. He played as well as he needed to play.


It's even theoretically possible for the guy who gets 7 ahead to have actually won fewer games (as earl did after 120).

Ummmmmmmm.. WOW. Please detail how it is mathematically possible for a person to win a 7 ahead session and have won fewer games. I'll give you $50,000.00 if you can do it.

No, seriously, I will. Here's a hint. As soon as he got 7 ahead, the session was OVER.

I hate to think that this 10,000 bucks might actually just be pure gambling, like flipping a coin but with lots of hard work.

By your reasoning, no one should ever gamble, because there is the slightest chance they are only two games better than their opponent over their ENTIRE LIVES.

If you hadn't noticed, some players are able to play their top speed more consistently than others. THAT'S why they play ahead sets. Because player B's stroke might break down on the third day, or his mental processes, whatever.

Thinking that champions play top speed every single day without fail is a little naive. if so, they'd never get beat by an amateur.

I was also wondering, how much big action (like 10,000) is happening in the usa (or anywhere for that matter) at any given moment. Are top players doing this kind of thing every day with each other or is 5-digit betting pretty rare? I haven't even seen a game played for thousands of dollars before (outside of tournaments) in my area. If I'm on the East Coast, where can I go to watch money games like this? Just new york, or also NJ and... FLA? boston?!

Matches this big are fairly rare. To catch matches like this, you usually have to know who are the players most likely to get into this type of action are. Normally, this sort of action does not happen amongst players that live together in the same area. The reason is, the players know how each other play, and no one usually wants to enter into this large a game without thinking they have a significant advantage. For this reason, these large matches usually happen with road players, and then only when the road player has sufficiently hidden his skill.

To have the best chance at seeing a big game like this, you basically have to know most of the players in your state, and the surrounding states. You have to give them your cell #, and ask to be called if there is any big action that you can watch.

Or, you can find a few pool message boards for the states around you, and hope action is posted quickly enough to drive over and watch.

These are the only ways I know of.

Russ
 
sometimes ahead sets never end, the players agree to stop after a few days, I've seen that more than once.
 
Last edited:
1on1pooltournys said:
John Hager is a stand out guy. I'm glad to hear he is playing. Last I heard he had health issues or in some type of accident. Correct? I'd like to see him book a winner, the last big set I saw him play was unbelivable how he lost it after being on 9 playing 10 ahead. It truely to this date is the unluckiest turn around i've ever seen in pool to this date. You should ask him about it.

I wouldnt ask a guy about how he was 9 up and lost a 10 ahead set, it just is the wrong thing to discuss-nobody would want to talk about that after getting to the hill and then having a 19 game swing against him. let it be.
 
CreeDo said:
I guess for 10K, it would have to be a multi-day kind of race. It just wouldn't feel like you got your money's worth otherwise :P

If I could go off-topic for a second...

I gotta admit, I don't understand 'ahead' races. With alternating breaks and two almost even players (ARE these guys almost even?), it seems like 7 ahead shouldn't happen unless fatigue is a factor. But it sounds like they get to take breaks and sleep. So if both players are close, who's to say if 7 ahead will ever happen? And if it does, does it really mean something or is just kind of a statistical fluke?

I'm thinking of the color of money match (race to 120 between efren and earl that was decided by only 3 games). Eventually efren won, but if they had decided to play an ahead race instead, the only guy who got ahead much was earl (by 8 racks). So if they had been playing 7-ahead, the 'wrong' guy would have won. And if they had played to 10 ahead they might have ended up playing for months constantly being stalemated.

I guess my point is, even the race to 120 wasn't enough to point out a clear cut winner in their case, and an 'ahead' race could easily have led either to either a 100 year stalemate or the wrong guy winning. It's even theoretically possible for the guy who gets 7 ahead to have actually won fewer games (as earl did after 120). I hate to think that this 10,000 bucks might actually just be pure gambling, like flipping a coin but with lots of hard work.

I was also wondering, how much big action (like 10,000) is happening in the usa (or anywhere for that matter) at any given moment. Are top players doing this kind of thing every day with each other or is 5-digit betting pretty rare? I haven't even seen a game played for thousands of dollars before (outside of tournaments) in my area. If I'm on the East Coast, where can I go to watch money games like this? Just new york, or also NJ and... FLA? boston?!
Actually, I think Earl was ahead by 17 racks at one point.
 
Over the years I have found I like ahead sets more and more. If I'm trying to beat a better player it's short sets for small bets. If I'm playing about even with someone it's looong sets or ahead sets for better bets. Playing the odds basically.

It's the same reason most smaller tourneys are short races, it gives the lesser player a chance to luck out on a better player. Good players know how to calculate the odds and by extending the time of play to reduce the luck factor. Kind of like a slot machine.....you might hit for a little early and quit ahead, but if they MADE you play for 10 hours you would lose the exact amount the machine is set up to win from you like 85% or whatever.

BUT....the Human factor always plays a role in long games! :D
Gerry
 
Gerry said:
Over the years I have found I like ahead sets more and more. If I'm trying to beat a better player it's short sets for small bets. If I'm playing about even with someone it's looong sets or ahead sets for better bets. Playing the odds basically.

It's the same reason most smaller tourneys are short races, it gives the lesser player a chance to luck out on a better player. Good players know how to calculate the odds and by extending the time of play to reduce the luck factor. Kind of like a slot machine.....you might hit for a little early and quit ahead, but if they MADE you play for 10 hours you would lose the exact amount the machine is set up to win from you like 85% or whatever.

BUT....the Human factor always plays a role in long games! :D
Gerry

Yep, I was a bit curious as to whose idea it was to play 7 ahead and whose idea it was to cease play after 8 hours and resume play. Furtherly, I'm curious as to what the deal is today if perhaps after 8 more hours, Bill is still 4 games ahead.

Billy has played a lot this week and I'm wondering if this is going to show up? He is in good shape and works out, still, for 63 yrs old, he has put in a lot of hours over the past week.

On the other hand, John hasn't played much in the past year and I'm curious how he will hold up. Just a few short years ago {2-3} I watched him wear down some pretty good players and he always seemed to get real tough after 10 hours.
 
Russ Chewning said:
How do you figure? Gambling is always about who plays better over a set amount of time or games. If it had been 7 ahead, the "right" person would have won, as Earl played much better the first few days..




I take it you thought Earl and Efren played even back then? PA leeze. The only reason Earl came so close is because Efren dogged his arse off for a LONG period of time. When Efren saw the finish line approaching, he kicked it into gear, and Earl effectively got blown out at the end.



But it was. It was long enough for us to see Earl choke big time at the end. I think the way these two comport themselves today bears out that Efren has more staying power than Earl. This was born out in the race to 120. Seems pretty clear cut to me. I think that if it had been to 100, Efren would have woke up sooner. He played as well as he needed to play.




Ummmmmmmm.. WOW. Please detail how it is mathematically possible for a person to win a 7 ahead session and have won fewer games. I'll give you $50,000.00 if you can do it.

No, seriously, I will. Here's a hint. As soon as he got 7 ahead, the session was OVER.



By your reasoning, no one should ever gamble, because there is the slightest chance they are only two games better than their opponent over their ENTIRE LIVES.

If you hadn't noticed, some players are able to play their top speed more consistently than others. THAT'S why they play ahead sets. Because player B's stroke might break down on the third day, or his mental processes, whatever.

Thinking that champions play top speed every single day without fail is a little naive. if so, they'd never get beat by an amateur.



Matches this big are fairly rare. To catch matches like this, you usually have to know who are the players most likely to get into this type of action are. Normally, this sort of action does not happen amongst players that live together in the same area. The reason is, the players know how each other play, and no one usually wants to enter into this large a game without thinking they have a significant advantage. For this reason, these large matches usually happen with road players, and then only when the road player has sufficiently hidden his skill.

To have the best chance at seeing a big game like this, you basically have to know most of the players in your state, and the surrounding states. You have to give them your cell #, and ask to be called if there is any big action that you can watch.

Or, you can find a few pool message boards for the states around you, and hope action is posted quickly enough to drive over and watch.

These are the only ways I know of.

Russ

Russ I see what you are saying, but about the Efren vs Earl TCOM match- The first two days, Earl's break was working and Efren's wasnt. Earl was breaking great, squatting the cueball, and he started putting three and four packs together, consistently. Efren was hard pressed to make a ball on the break, and if he did, he rarely had a shot. Efren didn't dog more than just a handful of shots the ENTIRE race to 120. He just couldn't catch up to Earl in the first two days, because Efren couldn't string enough racks.

In the last day, Efren's gear kicked in. He was visibly exhausted, but once he got down on the table, he let loose some of the most spectacular 9ball I have ever seen. In the final tape of the series, out of 30 racks, Efren broke and ran about 20 of them. Efren started breaking the balls like Bustamante. He was smashing the living shit out of the rack, even harder than Earl was in the first two days. In the last day, Earl dogged two makeable shots, and got two bad rolls. That's what cost him the whole thing.

Efren turned into this offensive juggernaut and Earl couldn't believe what was happening. That was one hell of a match!
 
This thread is turning to the Efren/Earl topic moreso than the Billy/John topic.

:rolleyes:

-What's going on down in Dallas?
-What time were they planning on starting up again?
I think someone should get some spy photage.

:D

Inquiring minds do wonder...

Thanks,

Pool Loft Dave
 
Pool Loft Dave said:
This thread is turning to the Efren/Earl topic moreso than the Billy/John topic.

:rolleyes:

-What's going on down in Dallas?
-What time were they planning on starting up again?
I think someone should get some spy photage.

:D

Inquiring minds do wonder...

Thanks,

Pool Loft Dave

I'm not sure what time they will begin/resume play today. I assume around 3pm. That seems to be Billy's pattern.

THe photage is a good idea, but, you must understand that Billy is pretty picky about lights, flashes , or pretty much any type interference.

Like I said, I wish I had hung around for a couple of more days, but I leave for Vegas in the morning and fly out of San Anotonio. 20/20 hindsight!!
 
Russ is full of crap

Russ Chewning said:
How do you figure? Gambling is always about who plays better over a set amount of time or games. If it had been 7 ahead, the "right" person would have won, as Earl played much better the first few days..




I take it you thought Earl and Efren played even back then? PA leeze. The only reason Earl came so close is because Efren dogged his arse off for a LONG period of time. When Efren saw the finish line approaching, he kicked it into gear, and Earl effectively got blown out at the end.



But it was. It was long enough for us to see Earl choke big time at the end. I think the way these two comport themselves today bears out that Efren has more staying power than Earl. This was born out in the race to 120. Seems pretty clear cut to me. I think that if it had been to 100, Efren would have woke up sooner. He played as well as he needed to play.




Ummmmmmmm.. WOW. Please detail how it is mathematically possible for a person to win a 7 ahead session and have won fewer games. I'll give you $50,000.00 if you can do it.

No, seriously, I will. Here's a hint. As soon as he got 7 ahead, the session was OVER.



By your reasoning, no one should ever gamble, because there is the slightest chance they are only two games better than their opponent over their ENTIRE LIVES.

If you hadn't noticed, some players are able to play their top speed more consistently than others. THAT'S why they play ahead sets. Because player B's stroke might break down on the third day, or his mental processes, whatever.

Thinking that champions play top speed every single day without fail is a little naive. if so, they'd never get beat by an amateur.



Matches this big are fairly rare. To catch matches like this, you usually have to know who are the players most likely to get into this type of action are. Normally, this sort of action does not happen amongst players that live together in the same area. The reason is, the players know how each other play, and no one usually wants to enter into this large a game without thinking they have a significant advantage. For this reason, these large matches usually happen with road players, and then only when the road player has sufficiently hidden his skill.

To have the best chance at seeing a big game like this, you basically have to know most of the players in your state, and the surrounding states. You have to give them your cell #, and ask to be called if there is any big action that you can watch.

Or, you can find a few pool message boards for the states around you, and hope action is posted quickly enough to drive over and watch.

These are the only ways I know of.

Russ
Your full of crap if you think either Earl choked or Efren was the better player at that time ,Efren got his break working well and broke and ran a bunch of racks to come back and win. I am a big fan of both and have seen them play live very many times at least 30 or more and at the time period you are talking about the Mighty Earl was winning multiple world and US open championships and the best Efren could get was second so quit spouting off that big nasty mouth full of crap.--Leonard
 
I have watched a young John Drew Hager totaly dismantle one of the best 9 ball gamblers Tony Watson three years ago at DCC in multiple 10 ahead sets for 10 dimes each. Drews dad made him match up playing tenball against Tony and he slayed him for three days, the night the DCC ended I walked in and they are matched up playing 9ball and John Hager Sr see's what they are playing and starts chewing Drew out about not making Tony play tenball. Drew says I just want to go back to Texas and tell them that I beat that SOB anyway he wanted to play and he did win the last set. I was very sad when he did not show up at DCC the next year for more action, the kids got game.--Leonard
 
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