Bonus ball, know how I can tell it's a fail?

[JC]

Because we here at AZ have already been shot down as insignificant to it's success yet we are the only one's talking about it or watching it. There's a reality gap here folks. And that's the reality of it.

JC

Edit: in case I was unclear, this will not change with BB in it's present form.

 

[Put_upor_shutup]

Pretty sure they are just shooting shows to try and present the product to ppl who can afford to market it to a larger scale audience..I don't think online views mean as much as one would think in the whole scheme of things..

 

[nathandumoulin]

Pretty sure they are just shooting shows to try and present the product to ppl who can afford to market it to a larger scale audience..I don't think online views mean as much as one would think in the whole scheme of things..

Online streaming is great because its live and on schedule. We love the support from enthusiasts who are willing to tune in to the streams, but the reality is that's never going to pay the bills. We're not trying to offend the online fans, were simply being honest that it's not the priority. We're trying to work towards creating a product that will work for TV, and that will take a few weeks. Once it's ready, we will pitch, and start promoting.

Matchroom doesnt put its focus on online streaming as it's not the target market. The masses through broadcast is. That doesnt mean they don't care about enthusiasts. No one is offended by that, and with good reason. WPBL is very similar in that respect.

 

[Put_upor_shutup]

Online streaming is great because its live and on schedule. We love the support from enthusiasts who are willing to tune in to the streams, but the reality is that's never going to pay the bills. We're not trying to offend the online fans, were simply being honest that it's not the priority. We're trying to work towards creating a product that will work for TV, and that will take a few weeks. Once it's ready, we will pitch, and start promoting.

Matchroom doesnt put its focus on online streaming as it's not the target market. The masses through broadcast is. That doesnt mean they don't care about enthusiasts. No one is offended by that, and with good reason. WPBL is very similar in that respect.

I understand..That's basically what I was stating...Good luck..Product is great..Game is slightly tough to figure out for the viewer..Hope it pans out..

 

[JC]

Online streaming is great because its live and on schedule. We love the support from enthusiasts who are willing to tune in to the streams, but the reality is that's never going to pay the bills. We're not trying to offend the online fans, were simply being honest that it's not the priority. We're trying to work towards creating a product that will work for TV, and that will take a few weeks. Once it's ready, we will pitch, and start promoting.

Matchroom doesnt put its focus on online streaming as it's not the target market. The masses through broadcast is. That doesnt mean they don't care about enthusiasts. No one is offended by that, and with good reason. WPBL is very similar in that respect.

I fully understand your plan Nathan. I understand that in order for it to pay the bills folks other than hard core enthusiasts are going to have to watch it. I'm saying it's not going to happen as is. And I feel bad for you all about that. I really do because I don't like to see it. Had you spent the time and energy producing something more like the Ultimate Fighter reality series it may have had a chance. Show what happens outside when Earl runs his mouth and script it if you have to. But frankly my dear, the world doesn't give a damn about BB as a sport. They need personalities they can relate to and pull for or against. People they can love and hate. Actually it's not too late to morph into that, but time is short as will money be soon enough with the present model.


JC

 

[spanky79]

Online streaming is great because its live and on schedule. We love the support from enthusiasts who are willing to tune in to the streams, but the reality is that's never going to pay the bills. We're not trying to offend the online fans, were simply being honest that it's not the priority. We're trying to work towards creating a product that will work for TV, and that will take a few weeks. Once it's ready, we will pitch, and start promoting.

Matchroom doesnt put its focus on online streaming as it's not the target market. The masses through broadcast is. That doesnt mean they don't care about enthusiasts. No one is offended by that, and with good reason. WPBL is very similar in that respect.

you have to realize that sometimes the way you come off to people is cocky and that you don't care what people think. There are alot of people who have given great ideas and many that would probably help you sell your product. The problem is instead of saying thank you for watching and trying to help, people feel like they are being told it doesn't matter what they thing because they are not the true target audience.
Pissing off the hard core pool fans is not the way to gain popularity. The hard core pool fans would be the ones giving word of mouth and helping to promote your product.

I am not saying I feel the same way as others, but this is how it looks from here. Take it for what you will.

 

[jpparmentier]

Online streaming is great because its live and on schedule. We love the support from enthusiasts who are willing to tune in to the streams, but the reality is that's never going to pay the bills. We're not trying to offend the online fans, were simply being honest that it's not the priority. We're trying to work towards creating a product that will work for TV, and that will take a few weeks. Once it's ready, we will pitch, and start promoting.

Everybody in this industry knows streams are not profitable. A lot of streamers lose money, others break even and can live off of their passion. You were probably getting false stats from your hosting company when they told you the stream in week 1 died because of reaching 10,000 viewers. Of course that never happened.

As stated by many people before, numbers in this industry are in the 600-1,200 ballpark for regular free streams, up to 1,500 for great matchups, and the highest that we know of is 2,400 on ustream. PPV is about 15 to 25% that much in average.

One way to judge would be to turn on you viewers count on ustream, which you didn't do. That would've shown your current audience reach.


What you've been doing, though, promoting the brand and the game on a free stream for the past week is good, because many people (including myself) could see what it's all about, judge the final product and comment while not having to pay for something they don't know about.

Switching to PPV will drop the viewers count to about 10-15%, maybe up to 25% if you have a good lineup. The prices you advertise are attractive though, so I expect you to get somewhere around 150 to 200 people buying the PPV.

So yes, I can understand why stream is not your business and given the huge amount of the forefront costs of this project, it's a good thing it isn't

Matchroom doesnt put its focus on online streaming as it's not the target market. The masses through broadcast is. That doesnt mean they don't care about enthusiasts. No one is offended by that, and with good reason. WPBL is very similar in that respect.

Matchroom works with TV channels to either produce or broadcast their product. What they aim to reach is the masses, with a game that's easy to understand, fast to play and where luck and entertainment can be factors. The last thing they will do is switch to 10-Ball call pockets to please the pro players. That ain't the goal. So forget about a game as complex as BB for the masses.

Now regarding the target enthusiasts, Matchroom does a LOT for them. PRs are always sent withing a couple of hours of the end of play, and the goal there is to get everybody up to date with things, as they happen. Fans love this.

As far as the competitors, they always carefully select them to please the broadcasters and the enthusiasts, trying to see who's playing well at the time of the events so they can be sure to have the best show possible. They have in the past ran polls, yearly rankings that were both hugely followed by the pool fans.

So the fans don't have to be offended or not by matchroom : they are totally, always, in the loop of information and very well taken care of.


As pointed out by JC in the start of the thread, AZB's forum is today the place were there is 99% of the Bonus Ball talks, yet you seem to be saying "well, we're not really trying to please you, we have a bigger plan. As soon as we can sell this to ESPN, we won't even be considering you guys". :thumbup:


We at AZB have displayed as much info as possible on BB given what we had at hand and we have given it more than a fair shot during the launch week. 2 slides on the home sliders were about BB, and we hope you got some good exposure because of that.

Since then, neither AZB nor all the other magazines have had any PR, any article, pics etc... And not for the lack of trying.

I understand you're very busy, and before it all began I could see the "highlights clips every monday" you promised as something that would not make it past week 1 already. What you're doing is very impressive already, don't put extra pressure by making impossible promises, you have already achieved a LOT, and the livestreaming looks great.


Now as far as the networks go, good luck with that. Over here in Europe the Eurotour was recently (2012) declined by Eurosport for free, and production quality was good (Kozoom). They had aired 2 years (2006-2007 also for free), and didn't want it anymore. That says a lot about a 9/10-ball tour with 6 world champions in the line-up.
In the USA, the Mosconi Cup made it LIVE only on ESPN3 and this product is, today, the biggest TV cuesport program in the world.


Having written all that, I really don't like JC's thread title "it's a fail" because I really would hate to see such a venture go out of the sport.
I'm really thinking about the players here. They are very invested and everything has been said already about if you fail/if you succeed etc...

Carry on working, the product is young. But lose the attitude, which is probably one of the biggest reason why there is so much hate around this project.

Aside from the players's future, the fail of BB would actually please a lot of people and prove their point that you guys were being cocky and rude all along. Nobody cried for McKey or Trudeau, nobody will cry for you if this fails. The way you walked into the industry and acted may come back to slap you in the face one day.


The coming weeks will tell the future of Bonus Ball for sure, and there is probably a bigger picture that hasn't been presented.

I actually enjoyed a bit of this weekend's half-match that I could watch. But it didn't make any better impression on me than any other stream out there though, and having to guess details of the rules made it hard to follow.


That said, I enjoyed TAR's match more, but that's just me. I'm not the target

 

[Pfnatic]

Online streaming is great because its live and on schedule. We love the support from enthusiasts who are willing to tune in to the streams, but the reality is that's never going to pay the bills. We're not trying to offend the online fans, were simply being honest that it's not the priority. We're trying to work towards creating a product that will work for TV, and that will take a few weeks. Once it's ready, we will pitch, and start promoting.

Matchroom doesnt put its focus on online streaming as it's not the target market. The masses through broadcast is. That doesnt mean they don't care about enthusiasts. No one is offended by that, and with good reason. WPBL is very similar in that respect.

The problem with Bonus ball is the game itself and with the way it is being presented (women on either side spotting the black ball? Really?). Do you honestly think that people are going to go out and buy a bonus ball set? Do you really think that bonus ball is being played in a ton of pool halls right now? If your argument is that people can play the same game with solids/stripes, then why didn't you guys do the same? It would suck that what is played at the amateur level looks way different than what the professional play. Do you think at an amateur level, people would be comfortable playing a sequence in 3 pockets?

If you just want a product that will work for the TV, why not take a popular game like 9 ball and try the same team format. Don't you think you would get a ton of support from the pool community doing that? Look at the Mosconi cup which has the similar team concept.

The point is no matter what you try, if you cant get pool players here (or online) excited about this game, what hope do you have of a long term TV success within or outside of the US?

 

[highkarate]

The problem with Bonus ball is the game itself and with the way it is being presented (women on either side spotting the black ball? Really?). Do you honestly think that people are going to go out and buy a bonus ball set? Do you really think that bonus ball is being played in a ton of pool halls right now? If your argument is that people can play the same game with solids/stripes, then why didn't you guys do the same? It would suck that what is played at the amateur level looks way different than what the professional play. Do you think at an amateur level, people would be comfortable playing a sequence in 3 pockets?

If you just want a product that will work for the TV, why not take a popular game like 9 ball and try the same team format. Don't you think you would get a ton of support from the pool community doing that? Look at the Mosconi cup which has the similar team concept.

The point is no matter what you try, if you cant get pool players here (or online) excited about this game, what hope do you have of a long term TV success within or outside of the US?

to be fair, i am just some dude, but i think bonus ball is killing it. yeah, you have to figure out the game, and most of you guys are retarded, but who cares. i think the presentation is great, the aesthetic, the game, the players, the personal interjection from the players. the only thing hurting it is the unwillingness from the community, im a dude that buys all the tar matches and i love 10 ball and 1 pocket and all that stuff and i might not ever play bonus ball but shit ill watch it.

 

[JB Cases]

I say let it ride and see where it goes. With 500 channels and a lot more "internet" channels about to be created which will need content I am optimistic that Bonus Ball will find a market.

And if not then not. Won't be the first or the last game to come and go.

 

[APA BRIAN]

Everybody in this industry knows streams are not profitable. A lot of streamers lose money, others break even and can live off of their passion. You were probably getting false stats from your hosting company when they told you the stream in week 1 died because of reaching 10,000 viewers. Of course that never happened.

As stated by many people before, numbers in this industry are in the 600-1,200 ballpark for regular free streams, up to 1,500 for great matchups, and the highest that we know of is 2,400 on ustream. PPV is about 15 to 25% that much in average.

One way to judge would be to turn on you viewers count on ustream, which you didn't do. That would've shown your current audience reach.


What you've been doing, though, promoting the brand and the game on a free stream for the past week is good, because many people (including myself) could see what it's all about, judge the final product and comment while not having to pay for something they don't know about.

Switching to PPV will drop the viewers count to about 10-15%, maybe up to 25% if you have a good lineup. The prices you advertise are attractive though, so I expect you to get somewhere around 150 to 200 people buying the PPV.

So yes, I can understand why stream is not your business and given the huge amount of the forefront costs of this project, it's a good thing it isn't




Matchroom works with TV channels to either produce or broadcast their product. What they aim to reach is the masses, with a game that's easy to understand, fast to play and where luck and entertainment can be factors. The last thing they will do is switch to 10-Ball call pockets to please the pro players. That ain't the goal. So forget about a game as complex as BB for the masses.

Now regarding the target enthusiasts, Matchroom does a LOT for them. PRs are always sent withing a couple of hours of the end of play, and the goal there is to get everybody up to date with things, as they happen. Fans love this.

As far as the competitors, they always carefully select them to please the broadcasters and the enthusiasts, trying to see who's playing well at the time of the events so they can be sure to have the best show possible. They have in the past ran polls, yearly rankings that were both hugely followed by the pool fans.

So the fans don't have to be offended or not by matchroom : they are totally, always, in the loop of information and very well taken care of.


As pointed out by JC in the start of the thread, AZB's forum is today the place were there is 99% of the Bonus Ball talks, yet you seem to be saying "well, we're not really trying to please you, we have a bigger plan. As soon as we can sell this to ESPN, we won't even be considering you guys". :thumbup:


We at AZB have displayed as much info as possible on BB given what we had at hand and we have given it more than a fair shot during the launch week. 2 slides on the home sliders were about BB, and we hope you got some good exposure because of that.

Since then, neither AZB nor all the other magazines have had any PR, any article, pics etc... And not for the lack of trying.

I understand you're very busy, and before it all began I could see the "highlights clips every monday" you promised as something that would not make it past week 1 already. What you're doing is very impressive already, don't put extra pressure by making impossible promises, you have already achieved a LOT, and the livestreaming looks great.


Now as far as the networks go, good luck with that. Over here in Europe the Eurotour was recently (2012) declined by Eurosport for free, and production quality was good (Kozoom). They had aired 2 years (2006-2007 also for free), and didn't want it anymore. That says a lot about a 9/10-ball tour with 6 world champions in the line-up.
In the USA, the Mosconi Cup made it LIVE only on ESPN3 and this product is, today, the biggest TV cuesport program in the world.


Having written all that, I really don't like JC's thread title "it's a fail" because I really would hate to see such a venture go out of the sport.
I'm really thinking about the players here. They are very invested and everything has been said already about if you fail/if you succeed etc...

Carry on working, the product is young. But lose the attitude, which is probably one of the biggest reason why there is so much hate around this project.

Aside from the players's future, the fail of BB would actually please a lot of people and prove their point that you guys were being cocky and rude all along. Nobody cried for McKey or Trudeau, nobody will cry for you if this fails. The way you walked into the industry and acted may come back to slap you in the face one day.


The coming weeks will tell the future of Bonus Ball for sure, and there is probably a bigger picture that hasn't been presented.

I actually enjoyed a bit of this weekend's half-match that I could watch. But it didn't make any better impression on me than any other stream out there though, and having to guess details of the rules made it hard to follow.


That said, I enjoyed TAR's match more, but that's just me. I'm not the target

You could just read the rules, there actually aren't that many. And the rules they do have are not that complicated. An American bar table player may not understand everything he sees while watching a Snooker match. It doesn't matter, the millions who understand it, love it. Give Bonus Ball and its rules a chance.
And to everyone
Often what is true is not judicious to say.....

 

[CreeDo]

we're simply being honest that it's not the priority.

man, I wish you could go back in time and unsay this (and stop saying it)...
I don't mean to harp on the subject, but sometimes being honest is overrated.
Reminds me of one of my favorite jokes.

A guy goes into an interview and the interviewer says "what do you think is your greatest fault?"
The prospect says "well, I think I'm just too honest."
Interviewer: "Huh? I don't think being honest is a fault."
Prospect: "I don't give a f*ck what you think."

There are situations where some info is just not meant to be shared with (potential) customers.
It's ironic because a lot of people on here have been demanding to know bonus ball's business plan,
like they're entitled to know where your revenue is coming from.
So then you tell them, and they have a hard time swallowing it.

But there are a couple of ways to present the truth to make it more palatable, for example
"We're hoping to make revenue from the stream and eventually TV."
vs.
"Well, the stream's not really enough revenue to be useful so it's low priority."

 

[Ghosst]

But lose the attitude, which is probably one of the biggest reason why there is so much hate around this project.

10 characters.

 

[perspicaz]

I do understand that streaming is not BB's primary business. That's ok.
But if it is not in the business plan, why not stream for free? And/or upload all matches on youtube and promote the hell out of it? That way it would become a better known product and more valuable for TV stations/internet channels? In the end, the more people know about it, the more people watch it and the more sponsors/money you can attract.

I also think a little introspection into the players lives/characters/grudges could be showcased during half-time and it would also add value for sponsors/potential buyers.

I am not a business guy, so maybe I'm saying something silly.

Online streaming is great because its live and on schedule. We love the support from enthusiasts who are willing to tune in to the streams, but the reality is that's never going to pay the bills. We're not trying to offend the online fans, were simply being honest that it's not the priority. We're trying to work towards creating a product that will work for TV, and that will take a few weeks. Once it's ready, we will pitch, and start promoting.

Matchroom doesnt put its focus on online streaming as it's not the target market. The masses through broadcast is. That doesnt mean they don't care about enthusiasts. No one is offended by that, and with good reason. WPBL is very similar in that respect.

 

[Roger Long]

Many times, people just hope something will fail because they will feel totally left out if it should succeed. Other people do not like change because it takes them out of their comfort zone. And most people like being in control of everything they come into contact with; but a new idea is something they have zero control over.

That's what I think is happening on these boards regarding Bonus Ball.

Roger

 

[JC]

Many times, people just hope something will fail because they will feel totally left out if it should succeed. Other people do not like change because it takes them out of their comfort zone. And most people like being in control of everything they come into contact with; but a new idea is something they have zero control over.

That's what I think is happening on these boards regarding Bonus Ball.

Roger

What they are trying to do is noble. The concept is seriously flawed though. My observations are just that. They are not based on my wishing one thing or another to occur. I have run a business for years and know it's not easy. When you are trying to sell something not in demand it becomes impossible. I will be left out whether this thing swims or sinks and I have no emotions tied to it. Some things are new and cool and some things are just new. I have seen many, many things come and go in my 54 years and have an uncanny knack of spotting the winners and the losers early on. This one is a loser unless it changes, and fast. This is not because I'm left out or butt hurt about not being it's target audience. I actually enjoy watching the game from a pool standpoint. These guys are incredible. But I also enjoy watching ten ball and one pocket. But what I enjoy doesn't matter in this thing at all, which is part of the irony of the problem with BB.

Having said all this, I have also seen Asian countries embrace some weird shit. I hope against hope that this is one of them only because I always feel a little of the pain when I see a business fail no matter what it is.

JC

 

[Black-Balled]

Originally Posted by jpparmentier
But lose the attitude, which is probably one of the biggest reason why there is so much hate around this project.

10 characters.

Can we all agree on something? That the sheer # of folks that discuss anything on AZB means that we will never all agree on something?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Keep it up and don't do it again.

I see nothing patronizing or demeaning, btw:
Online streaming is great because its live and on schedule. We love the support from enthusiasts who are willing to tune in to the streams, but the reality is that's never going to pay the bills. We're not trying to offend the online fans, were simply being honest that it's not the priority. We're trying to work towards creating a product that will work for TV, and that will take a few weeks. Once it's ready, we will pitch, and start promoting.

Matchroom doesnt put its focus on online streaming as it's not the target market. The masses through broadcast is. That doesnt mean they don't care about enthusiasts. No one is offended by that, and with good reason. WPBL is very similar in that respect.

 

[Ghosst]

Can we all agree on something?

No.

I've never said I hate BB. Or the cinematography. Or the work that's been put into it.Not even the game itself. It's just the attitude that surrounds it. But hey, I'm a pool player so I'm not the audience at any rate. Which makes total sense given they are using professional pool players.

 

[JCIN]

Many times, people just hope something will fail because they will feel totally left out if it should succeed. Other people do not like change because it takes them out of their comfort zone. And most people like being in control of everything they come into contact with; but a new idea is something they have zero control over.

That's what I think is happening on these boards regarding Bonus Ball.

Roger

Because there is no possible way things have happened that you do not know about that could of shaped some people's perceptions and opinions.

I think the Bonus Ball situation has once again proved that people with absolutely no idea what they are talking about can speak in absolutes and be completely certain about it.

Long live the interwebz

 

[jpparmentier]

Many times, people just hope something will fail because they will feel totally left out if it should succeed. Other people do not like change because it takes them out of their comfort zone. And most people like being in control of everything they come into contact with; but a new idea is something they have zero control over.

That's what I think is happening on these boards regarding Bonus Ball.

Roger

"Confort zone", for promoters who were planning events for months, maybe years, means they could expect the usual bunch of "pros" to fill their brackets.

In 6 days a $75,000 added event starts, and with a field of 128 players half-full...

It seems like people want Ultimate 10-Ball to fail, too.

So yeah I would understand people like Badi or Greg wanting a venture to fail when the newcomer just prevents them to be profitable and takes them out of their 'confort zone'.

I would like to see the shape of the 2014 calendar with half of the pro events gone, and how all of this could have been prevented with a few talks and respect between people.