I do not play straight pool, and my best run is 53. I have also been lucky a few times to have bowled 300's and an 800. I consider myself a low level master in pool. To compete at a very high level takes practice, skill and talent, at either discipline. I believe bowling is more difficult, for changing lanes, fatigue, knowledge to adapt, and to be mentally tough to accept that eight pin should not be there. Just my rambling
Bowling vs. Billiards
- Thread starter TommyT
- Start date
Okay, I admit that I didn't read all of the responses to this thread before I started typing. This is a subject that I have some authority on and couldn't wait to share my knowledge, or lack of knowledge...
My 17 year old son is a bowler and has been since he was 5. Because of this, I have become is his coach, both on a personal level and as the High School Varsity Bowling coach. I've spent several dollars attending coaching clinics, et al. trying to learn enough to help his as he got older. I've also spent several more dollars sending him to learn from pros like Chris Barnes, Norm Duke and Ronnie Russell. (This ends my bibliography, sorry for the chest bumping)
As a poster above stated lane conditions can be changed to make things easier or more difficult depending on the reason people are bowling.
House Condition
Bowling centers, just like pool halls, are in the business to make money. The way that bowling centers make money is to keep their clientele happy and they do this by making it as easy as possible for your average “beer leaguer” to score. This is done by laying a moderate of lane conditioner (lane oil) down the middle boards and a very light amount of oil along the outside boards. This oil pattern extends 40 feet down the lanes (a lane is 60 feet from foul line to center of head pin) This creates a “wall” on the outside of the lanes that when “that guy” rolls his brand new $250.00 ball down the lanes with any type of spin at all, the ball “reads” those dry boards and “bounces” back into the pocket. The margin for error on this type of lane condition is 5 boards (one arrow) either direction.
Sport Conditions
The sport shot, or sport condition, is a little more difficult and can be any of 3 oil patterns. You may have heard the oil patterns referred to as the “red, white, and blue” patterns with red being the most forgiving and blue being the toughest. What happens with these patterns is the oil down the middle is put on a little thicker as you go down the lanes (the “wall” is also eliminated but we will not discuss this, it’s too hard to explain without having math/physics major available for explanation) which causes the lanes to change more dramatically during play. The margin of error on these lanes is about 2 boards either direction depending on the lanes themselves.
Pro Conditions
The Pro shot is the toughest and there are eight (8) different patterns listed at this time. I’m not even going to try to explain these things other than to say that you had better be damn good to score on these. The margin of error on these conditions is ½ inch to an inch.
Below is my son’s average on each condition…
House = 220-230
Sport = 190-200
Pro = 165-175
So back to the original question of which is tougher to “master”. My suggestion would be both.
My 17 year old son is a bowler and has been since he was 5. Because of this, I have become is his coach, both on a personal level and as the High School Varsity Bowling coach. I've spent several dollars attending coaching clinics, et al. trying to learn enough to help his as he got older. I've also spent several more dollars sending him to learn from pros like Chris Barnes, Norm Duke and Ronnie Russell. (This ends my bibliography, sorry for the chest bumping)
As a poster above stated lane conditions can be changed to make things easier or more difficult depending on the reason people are bowling.
House Condition
Bowling centers, just like pool halls, are in the business to make money. The way that bowling centers make money is to keep their clientele happy and they do this by making it as easy as possible for your average “beer leaguer” to score. This is done by laying a moderate of lane conditioner (lane oil) down the middle boards and a very light amount of oil along the outside boards. This oil pattern extends 40 feet down the lanes (a lane is 60 feet from foul line to center of head pin) This creates a “wall” on the outside of the lanes that when “that guy” rolls his brand new $250.00 ball down the lanes with any type of spin at all, the ball “reads” those dry boards and “bounces” back into the pocket. The margin for error on this type of lane condition is 5 boards (one arrow) either direction.
Sport Conditions
The sport shot, or sport condition, is a little more difficult and can be any of 3 oil patterns. You may have heard the oil patterns referred to as the “red, white, and blue” patterns with red being the most forgiving and blue being the toughest. What happens with these patterns is the oil down the middle is put on a little thicker as you go down the lanes (the “wall” is also eliminated but we will not discuss this, it’s too hard to explain without having math/physics major available for explanation) which causes the lanes to change more dramatically during play. The margin of error on these lanes is about 2 boards either direction depending on the lanes themselves.
Pro Conditions
The Pro shot is the toughest and there are eight (8) different patterns listed at this time. I’m not even going to try to explain these things other than to say that you had better be damn good to score on these. The margin of error on these conditions is ½ inch to an inch.
Below is my son’s average on each condition…
House = 220-230
Sport = 190-200
Pro = 165-175
So back to the original question of which is tougher to “master”. My suggestion would be both.
Unscientific findings.....
I liked bowling a lot, especially when we were kids. The Alpine was a bowling center that had leagues for kids. Me and one of my brothers were on "The Chimps" or "The Zebras" for several years while in grade school. Fun memories....
I bowled about once a month up until about 3 years ago. And here's how funny this sport is. When I was a senior in H.S., on lane 24 of Rt 19 Bowl in Washington, I bowled a 289 with a Fred Flintstone like rubber ball off the rack that didn't even fit my grip right. That's 10 strikes, a 9 and spare.
Thinking I was the next budding PBA star, I bought a bowling ball and had it custom drilled. Later on I bought a Track "Nuke". Then I had a couple of Columbia 300's. And my average always hovered around 170-172. Heck, the "Chimps" and "Zebras" average that nowadays!
No matter how much I concentrated, I could never bowl consistantly well. I lucked out a 257 and a few 230's from time to time. But they were off set by the 120's
eek and 140's that inevitably came.
For me, bowling is way harder than pool to get better at once you reach a certain level.
With pool, I would be competitive in tournaments. I played in local tournaments and won. I never had the time (from working 2 jobs and raising my family) to enter the big tournaments. And I always wanted to compete in the DCC, the senior events or some Joss tour stops after I reached 50. But the back surgery set me back. Maybe in another year or 2, I can get out there.
So from my experience only, I feel like there has been constant and steady improvement in my pool game. My bowling leveled off long ago and no matter what I tried, it never got above a very mediocre level. Granted it could have something to do with the fact that for every game I bowled, I probably played 350-400 games of pool. :grin: And that I have a 9ft Brunswick in the basement and no bowling lanes.
While we're waxing nostalgic, the White House had bowling lanes installed during President Nixon's reign before you know who replaced them with a basketball hoop.
I liked bowling a lot, especially when we were kids. The Alpine was a bowling center that had leagues for kids. Me and one of my brothers were on "The Chimps" or "The Zebras" for several years while in grade school. Fun memories....
I bowled about once a month up until about 3 years ago. And here's how funny this sport is. When I was a senior in H.S., on lane 24 of Rt 19 Bowl in Washington, I bowled a 289 with a Fred Flintstone like rubber ball off the rack that didn't even fit my grip right. That's 10 strikes, a 9 and spare.
Thinking I was the next budding PBA star, I bought a bowling ball and had it custom drilled. Later on I bought a Track "Nuke". Then I had a couple of Columbia 300's. And my average always hovered around 170-172. Heck, the "Chimps" and "Zebras" average that nowadays!
No matter how much I concentrated, I could never bowl consistantly well. I lucked out a 257 and a few 230's from time to time. But they were off set by the 120's
eek and 140's that inevitably came. For me, bowling is way harder than pool to get better at once you reach a certain level.
With pool, I would be competitive in tournaments. I played in local tournaments and won. I never had the time (from working 2 jobs and raising my family) to enter the big tournaments. And I always wanted to compete in the DCC, the senior events or some Joss tour stops after I reached 50. But the back surgery set me back. Maybe in another year or 2, I can get out there.
So from my experience only, I feel like there has been constant and steady improvement in my pool game. My bowling leveled off long ago and no matter what I tried, it never got above a very mediocre level. Granted it could have something to do with the fact that for every game I bowled, I probably played 350-400 games of pool. :grin: And that I have a 9ft Brunswick in the basement and no bowling lanes.
While we're waxing nostalgic, the White House had bowling lanes installed during President Nixon's reign before you know who replaced them with a basketball hoop.
it's not easy to luck twelve strikes in a row at all....
There are some accomplished bowlers who have never scored a 300. The pros only occasionally do.
A 300 in bowling would be more like going 150 and out in straight pool, or running a five pack in nineball.
Most pro bowling matches are scored in the 195-245 area. 300 is fairly rare.
I had an average of about 180 which is actually pretty good, when I was practicing regularly down at GTMO (no decent pool tables to speak of), and I would hit the pocket the majority of the time.
Edit: For those of you who don't know, the pocket in bowling is the space between the one and two pin or the one and three pin...
Jaden
There are some accomplished bowlers who have never scored a 300. The pros only occasionally do.
A 300 in bowling would be more like going 150 and out in straight pool, or running a five pack in nineball.
Most pro bowling matches are scored in the 195-245 area. 300 is fairly rare.
I had an average of about 180 which is actually pretty good, when I was practicing regularly down at GTMO (no decent pool tables to speak of), and I would hit the pocket the majority of the time.
Edit: For those of you who don't know, the pocket in bowling is the space between the one and two pin or the one and three pin...
Jaden
They are about equally tough. I think about the same amount of people that can average around 200 in bowling would be about the same amount as guys in pool who can run 75 balls. My buddy bowls pretty competitively and some of the top guys regionally average around 240 and there tourneys actually pay good money!
no offence, english is not my primary language...I liked bowling a lot, especially when we were kids. The Alpine was a bowling center that had leagues for kids. Me and one of my brothers were on "The Chimps" or "The Zebras" for several years while in grade school. Fun memories....
I bowled about once a month up until about 3 years ago. And here's how funny this sport is. When I was a senior in H.S., on lane 24 of Rt 19 Bowl in Washington, I bowled a 289 with a Fred Flintstone like rubber ball off the rack that didn't even fit my grip right. That's 10 strikes, a 9 and spare.
Thinking I was the next budding PBA star, I bought a bowling ball and had it custom drilled. Later on I bought a Track "Nuke". Then I had a couple of Columbia 300's. And my average always hovered around 170-172. Heck, the "Chimps" and "Zebras" average that nowadays!
No matter how much I concentrated, I could never bowl consistantly well. I lucked out a 257 and a few 230's from time to time. But they were off set by the 120's
For me, bowling is way harder than pool to get better at once you reach a certain level.
With pool, I would be competitive in tournaments. I played in local tournaments and won. I never had the time (from working 2 jobs and raising my family) to enter the big tournaments. And I always wanted to compete in the DCC, the senior events or some Joss tour stops after I reached 50. But the back surgery set me back. Maybe in another year or 2, I can get out there.
So from my experience only, I feel like there has been constant and steady improvement in my pool game. My bowling leveled off long ago and no matter what I tried, it never got above a very mediocre level. Granted it could have something to do with the fact that for every game I bowled, I probably played 350-400 games of pool. :grin: And that I have a 9ft Brunswick in the basement and no bowling lanes.
While we're waxing nostalgic, the White House had bowling lanes installed during President Nixon's reign before you know who replaced them with a basketball hoop.
You are saying bowling is harder than pool in your opinion and you say "every game I bowled, I probably played 350-400 games of pool.", then you say you have a table in your house. No offence but if you couldn't improve in pool with a lot of playing and a table in your house, you should stop playing pool :grin: . Actually you are stating bowling is harder to master when you play a lot of pool and few bowling.
I don't know anything about bowling because is that kind of game which is popular only in the usa, so don't take my words too seriously :grin: ( like hockey, baseball ).
just like pool...
No offence taken at all ever!
I've reached the age (51) where all I can hope for now is to maintain anything I got left in pool! I'm no threat to win the U.S. Open, so don't ever pick me in a calcutta should I someday venture there. I'm just a short-stop in pool.
That being said, I can't quit pool. Too much of my lifestyle, too many great times. And if I didn't practice, then I would be as bad a 'pooler" as I am a bowler! :grin:
And I personally think that bowling is harder to achieve a higher level at than pool. In other words, I think it's easier to become very good at pool than it is to beocme very good at bowling.
I think its harder to adapt to the lane conditions rather then adapting to new felt and table conditions. IMO
I agree here...
These are really two completely different animals or a horse of a different color. While you really only have to perfect one type of shot in bowling, the amount of oil and conditions of one lane to the next vary much more than the conditions from one table to another. Causing someone to have to adjust to completely different conditions from one shot to the next, since often tournaments alternate lanes from one frame to the next.
In billiards, once you've adjusted to the conditions of the table in a given venue, they will play mostly the same for that given venue, although there is some slight variation from one table to the next.
Jaden
These are really two completely different animals or a horse of a different color. While you really only have to perfect one type of shot in bowling, the amount of oil and conditions of one lane to the next vary much more than the conditions from one table to another. Causing someone to have to adjust to completely different conditions from one shot to the next, since often tournaments alternate lanes from one frame to the next.
In billiards, once you've adjusted to the conditions of the table in a given venue, they will play mostly the same for that given venue, although there is some slight variation from one table to the next.
Jaden
Pool is definitely harder.
Pool is definitely harder. This coming from someone with 17 sanctioned 300 games and 5 sanctioned 800 series. In fact, the 846 in my screen name represents my high series (267-279-300).
I attribute a lot of it to technological advances in bowling - in both the ways the lanes are done and the bowling balls themselves (reactive coverstocks, different cores and drilling patterns, etc.). Bowling has definitely become easier over the years.
While there have been some technological advances in pool (LD shafts, hybrid cues, etc.), there is no way to make a cue magically pocket balls for you, while there are ways to set up bowling lanes condusive to high scoring, as well as tricks to improve carry (I knew a proprietor who sprayed the decks with Pledge furniture polish and rounded the bottoms of his pins to the legal limit {pins are illegal if they fall before being titled 11 degrees from vertical} and the carry in his center was downright silly).
Pool is definitely harder. This coming from someone with 17 sanctioned 300 games and 5 sanctioned 800 series. In fact, the 846 in my screen name represents my high series (267-279-300).
I attribute a lot of it to technological advances in bowling - in both the ways the lanes are done and the bowling balls themselves (reactive coverstocks, different cores and drilling patterns, etc.). Bowling has definitely become easier over the years.
While there have been some technological advances in pool (LD shafts, hybrid cues, etc.), there is no way to make a cue magically pocket balls for you, while there are ways to set up bowling lanes condusive to high scoring, as well as tricks to improve carry (I knew a proprietor who sprayed the decks with Pledge furniture polish and rounded the bottoms of his pins to the legal limit {pins are illegal if they fall before being titled 11 degrees from vertical} and the carry in his center was downright silly).
Bowling or billiards
If you can't play pool you have to throw darts. If you can't throw darts you have to go bowling.
If you can't play pool you have to throw darts. If you can't throw darts you have to go bowling.
The difficulty of adapting to different lane conditions in bowling versus table conditions in pool is only a small part of it.
In bowling at least 50% of your shots are the exact same - the strike ball. Spares have some variability but not nearly as much as different shots in pool do.
Speed control in pool is way more complex than in bowling.
In pool you have to pocket a ball while in bowling you have to knock down pins. But in bowling you do not also have to play position for your next shot.
In bowling at least 50% of your shots are the exact same - the strike ball. Spares have some variability but not nearly as much as different shots in pool do.
Speed control in pool is way more complex than in bowling.
In pool you have to pocket a ball while in bowling you have to knock down pins. But in bowling you do not also have to play position for your next shot.
A 300 game is bowling is as good as you can possibly do.
You could break and run 11 racks, and probably still be thinking you could have done better.
So before anyone can answer the question, we would have to define what exactly is considered mastering pool.
Has Archer mastered pool? If so, is he as good as he could ever be? Or do you think if you asked him, he would tell you he is always working to get better?
Can you get any better than being a 300 bowler?
I think it is probably just as difficult to be at the top level of either game. Different games, different skill sets, same level of determination and practice.
Steve
You could break and run 11 racks, and probably still be thinking you could have done better.
So before anyone can answer the question, we would have to define what exactly is considered mastering pool.
Has Archer mastered pool? If so, is he as good as he could ever be? Or do you think if you asked him, he would tell you he is always working to get better?
Can you get any better than being a 300 bowler?
I think it is probably just as difficult to be at the top level of either game. Different games, different skill sets, same level of determination and practice.
Steve
Well, for bowling you can go to the next game and continue ur streak as well. Usually bowling matches are settled by the total points of 2 games. But you are right the term "mastering" is vague and poorly defined.
Hmmm
[QUOTE by Winston846;] Pool is definitely harder. This coming from someone with 17 sanctioned 300 games and 5 sanctioned 800 series. In fact, the 846 in my screen name represents my
high series (267-279-300).
****************************************************************************
This guy is an expert bowler and he even he knows that pool is harder. I bowled twice in my life, and that happened 30 years ago. Took my son to his friends Bday party at bowling alley recently and they had a lane for the parents to play on.
1st Game; 95 - but I was throwing at different angles, trying to find a good spot to hit.
2nd Game: 160
Last Game; 185 One of the fathers that is on a bowling league never topped 175 !! He was kinda pissed......
I found the spot, threw the ball at that spot, on a straight line (don't know how to spin a bowling ball) and basically tried to "mash" the pins.
Used basic mechanics from baseball and pool to pick up spares.... tried to concentrate on release, and let her fly in nice straight line...BOOM.
And I'm a whopping 175 pounds....imagine if I learned how to play this silly game... Somebody new to pool can barely hold the cue, and they look almost "goofy" trying to shoot, let alone make a ball.
Pool has too much hand eye coordination and finese. Your hitting a round ball, into another round ball trying to make it in a 4 1/2 inch pocket, and at the same time making the cue ball move to particular spot on the table without touching more round balls... Yeah,this is a no brainer... I'm sure bowling is an otherwise fine sport but just not really comparable to the fine and ancient art of billiards !!!!
[QUOTE by Winston846;] Pool is definitely harder. This coming from someone with 17 sanctioned 300 games and 5 sanctioned 800 series. In fact, the 846 in my screen name represents my
high series (267-279-300).
****************************************************************************
This guy is an expert bowler and he even he knows that pool is harder. I bowled twice in my life, and that happened 30 years ago. Took my son to his friends Bday party at bowling alley recently and they had a lane for the parents to play on.
1st Game; 95 - but I was throwing at different angles, trying to find a good spot to hit.
2nd Game: 160
Last Game; 185 One of the fathers that is on a bowling league never topped 175 !! He was kinda pissed......
I found the spot, threw the ball at that spot, on a straight line (don't know how to spin a bowling ball) and basically tried to "mash" the pins.
Used basic mechanics from baseball and pool to pick up spares.... tried to concentrate on release, and let her fly in nice straight line...BOOM.
And I'm a whopping 175 pounds....imagine if I learned how to play this silly game... Somebody new to pool can barely hold the cue, and they look almost "goofy" trying to shoot, let alone make a ball.
Pool has too much hand eye coordination and finese. Your hitting a round ball, into another round ball trying to make it in a 4 1/2 inch pocket, and at the same time making the cue ball move to particular spot on the table without touching more round balls... Yeah,this is a no brainer... I'm sure bowling is an otherwise fine sport but just not really comparable to the fine and ancient art of billiards !!!!
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For me, this is no-brainer. Pool is much more difficult to master than bowling.
Pool requires tremendous visualization, precision, touch, knowledge, and strategy. When bowling under different conditions (e.g., a different oil pattern each match), you do need to be good at selecting an appropriate ball and/or line. You also need to be able to make adjustments as conditions change, but this is relatively straightforward. But beyond that, the margin for error for success is fairly large (compared to pool anyway), and there really isn't any strategy involved.
Don't get me wrong ... I love bowling ... almost as much as pool. I've bowled most of my life. I average 210-215 (bowling only once a week), and I have had one official perfect game (300).
I'm also in a pool league, and have been practicing a lot lately. I don't think my pool "talent" is any less than my bowling "talent," but I don't think think I could ever "master" pool. However, I do find pool much more fun, interesting, and challenging.
Regards,
Dave