C.J. Wiley VS Keith McCready - What's The Line?

[Ron Swanson]

Alcoholism and drug addition are diseases, no different {according to the AMA} than cancer, or diabetes. My hat's off to all athletes that have had their battle with "performance enhancing drugs," including steroids and HGH - and lived a healthy, happy, productive life.

Lance Armstrong was a strong example of how an incredible career can be ruined in a matter of days. Pool players are mild cases compared to biking, football, baseball, etc - even snooker players have had their share of addictive personalities.

Anyone that read his book knows even Andre Agassi did "meth" during tennis matches.....who would ever have guessed?

Um, er, YOU WHAT??

 

[Ron Swanson]

I started playing pool in 1969 at the age of 15. By the age of 17 I could run 50 balls in straight pool. By the age of 21 I spent a lot of time gambling, mostly in bars. From my personal experience most of us played either shit faced on booze and/or were doing cocaine or crank or black beauties.Most of the US Pro Players were doing the same thing.

Luckily I quit playing pool and drugs when I was 27 and went back to school and ended up in the Aerospace Industry as a Manager and retired when I was 59...~ 18 months ago. I started playing pool again in 2007 at the age of 53 and I never drink when I am playing.

I can fully appreciate what Keith and a host of others must of went through living day to day on the road and I salute him for staying sober and turning his life around with Jennie Ann.

Sorry, just had to get that off of my chest

Wedge

I agree, credit where credit's due. But, by the same token, all past achievements are tainted.

Drug cheats are drug cheats. Period.

 

[peteypooldude]

Drugs do not necessarily make you play better.
I also think discrediting someone's achievements is BS. I've played pool as jacked up as anyone 90% of the time. Take two people of equal talent with one being straight and the other being high , the one straight will win if they play very long . For someone to dominate while high then you can bet they'd play even better straight . I don't mean straight for 1 night, I'm talking about clear eyed and straight all the time. Drugs become something you do to just maintain . If it's pills then your going to blah out and if it's alcohol your going to get drunk eventually . Pills and pot were my thing ,though I've played on Coke many times too ,I can tell you that I know I'd play better without the addiction Do you think Nascar drivers would drive better shit faced ? It's the man who made the accomplishments not the drugs, they done it in SPITE of the drugs.
If you've never walked in the shoes then I don't see how you can throw rocks. Oh yes I do...... It's that freedom of internet speech I keep hearing about

 

[Ron Swanson]

Drugs do not necessarily make you play better.
I also think discrediting someone's achievements is BS. I've played pool as jacked up as anyone 90% of the time. Take two people of equal talent with one being straight and the other being high , the one straight will win if they play very long . For someone to dominate while high then you can bet they'd play even better straight . I don't mean straight for 1 night, I'm talking about clear eyed and straight all the time. Drugs become something you do to just maintain . If it's pills then your going to blah out and if it's alcohol your going to get drunk eventually . Pills and pot were my thing ,though I've played on Coke many times too ,I can tell you that I know I'd play better without the addiction Do you think Nascar drivers would drive better shit faced ? It's the man who made the accomplishments not the drugs, they done it in SPITE of the drugs.
If you've never walked in the shoes then I don't see how you can throw rocks. Oh yes I do...... It's that freedom of internet speech I keep hearing about

I think it's the sane, rational rest of the world that would tolerate YOUR freedom of speech, all the while shaking their heads sadly.

What is up with this place? The entirely useless are revered, and those of us trying to drag the place into the 21st century are attacked.

An astonishing place.

 

[peteypooldude]

I think it's the sane, rational rest of the world that would tolerate YOUR freedom of speech, all the while shaking their heads sadly.

What is up with this place? The entirely useless are revered, and those of us trying to drag the place into the 21st century are attacked.

An astonishing place.

Who's attacking ??? Looks like YOUR the attacker
<~~~~~ shaking head

 

[BeiberLvr]

Drugs do not necessarily make you play better.
I also think discrediting someone's achievements is BS. I've played pool as jacked up as anyone 90% of the time. Take two people of equal talent with one being straight and the other being high , the one straight will win if they play very long . For someone to dominate while high then you can bet they'd play even better straight . I don't mean straight for 1 night, I'm talking about clear eyed and straight all the time. Drugs become something you do to just maintain . If it's pills then your going to blah out and if it's alcohol your going to get drunk eventually . Pills and pot were my thing ,though I've played on Coke many times too ,I can tell you that I know I'd play better without the addiction Do you think Nascar drivers would drive better shit faced ? It's the man who made the accomplishments not the drugs, they done it in SPITE of the drugs.
If you've never walked in the shoes then I don't see how you can throw rocks. Oh yes I do...... It's that freedom of internet speech I keep hearing about

I agree that certain drugs will make you play worse over time, but I have heard (no idea if it's true) that certain drugs (coke??) can help one stay more focused over longer periods of time.

Of course, I myself, have never done it so I can't comment on whether or not it's fact.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Who's attacking ??? Looks like YOUR the attacker
<~~~~~ shaking head

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought your final sentence was aimed at me. Boy, do i feel silly.

 

[Ron Swanson]

I agree that certain drugs will make you play worse over time, but I have heard (no idea if it's true) that certain drugs (coke??) can help one stay more focused over longer periods of time.

Of course, I myself, have never done it so I can't comment on whether or not it's fact.

Coke/amphet or any other uppers will make you feel nerveless, clear headed, focused and confident, not to mention give you energy. The downside is you think you can beat anyone, invincible.

To say it is a disadvantage to use them is facile at best. To give former players victim status because of it is disgraceful. They are cheats, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Ron Swanson: Are they still "cheats" if all their peers are using them?

There is a really good documentary on Netflix called Bigger, Stronger, Faster. It follows steroid users and gets into many of the issues surrounding many performance enhancing drugs. I'd recommend the movie it's very good, and offers a perspective never shown by the media and their "puritanical" ethics.

 

[Maxx]

[/COLOR]

Jam .. It must be real lonely for you in your house.

What a nasty post, why would you want to throw that out there?

 

[peteypooldude]

I agree that certain drugs will make you play worse over time, but I have heard (no idea if it's true) that certain drugs (coke??) can help one stay more focused over longer periods of time.

Of course, I myself, have never done it so I can't comment on whether or not it's fact.

Coke destroys your game. It makes you nervous and jumpy and focused on everything but the pool game. It all comes down to mood and it does work in the beginning but after that it's just trying to maintain. Watch someone jacked up, they are twitching and messing with the cue, they can't be still. It's like texting and driving . Once you get that initial bang then your just chasing it. The problem is when it starts to wear off you don't go back to normal you start feeling like sh1t and you have to keep doing it until you crash.
This isn't something I read it's something I've lived. I play better on weed than anything and I don't play good without it which is a bad thing

 

[Maggiemay]

I don't think it would take me a real long time to get in stroke because I do have a clear head now. I don't drink, and I don't smoke, thanks to my wonderful gir. She's made that possible. She fought for me to do it, and I did it. I've been 9 years clean of drinking, and I've been almost one year of not smoking.


Well I'll be.... That is great news. I am so happy for you. You beat that damn game, didn't you? You have to know that you are a wonder to watch play pool and it looks like many people would love for you to share that with them again.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Ron Swanson: Are they still "cheats" if all their peers are using them?

There is a really good documentary on Netflix called Bigger, Stronger, Faster. It follows steroid users and gets into many of the issues surrounding many performance enhancing drugs. I'd recommend the movie it's very good, and offers a perspective never shown by the media and their "puritanical" ethics.

Yes, of course.

I see nothing puritanical about wanting to see sport clean from drug cheats.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Yes, of course.

I see nothing puritanical about wanting to see sport clean from drug cheats.

Check out the movie if you have the time and inclination. You might really like it. Best to you.

 

[CJ Wiley]

The "packages" were too often, too many, and too long for most players

The first time I saw "LA KEITH" was in Clinton Iowa at their "Big Ball" Bar Table Tournament. Buddy Hall was there, Mike Sigel, "Omaha John", Jimmy Rempe, "St. Louie Louie", Jimmy Reid, "The Miz", Allen Hopkins, David Matlock, Dave Yaeger, Ray Martin, Dallas West (Dallas got to the finals of the tournament, in the semi finals against "Omaha John" he ran 9 racks in a row...he then played Buddy Hall in the finals).

Even with all these champions there, the big news was that "LA KEITH" had offered THEM ALL the last 2......and there were no takers.

I still remember how Keith broke with the Big Cue Ball.....it was amazing to see how many times he would "park his rock" in the center of the table. This is why players feared him....The "packages" were too often, too many, and too long for most players.

Well I'll be.... That is great news. I am so happy for you. You beat that damn game, didn't you? You have to know that you are a wonder to watch play pool and it looks like many people would love for you to share that with them again.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Yes, of course.

I see nothing puritanical about wanting to see sport clean from drug cheats.

I agree with you in general but in pool I think it's different. If you don't want to gamble with someone because you know they get chemically enhanced and play much better as a result then that's your decision. Nothing wrong with that.

One thing I haven't seen written in this thread yet is the fact that when many players get "heart", "fearlessness", and "courage" from a pill or a bottle those same "qualities" vanish when they are off the stuff and playing on the natch. Then when they step up to the table they have to deal with nerves, anxiety, fears and nervousness that we all deal with all the time. Add to this, being 25 or 30 years older and I think it's easy to see the fears & doubts rise to the surface.

I'm glad Keith is clean and he has the love of a good woman to help him stay that way. That's more important than a pool match.

ONB

 

[ShootingArts]

on the natch

I agree with you in general but in pool I think it's different. If you don't want to gamble with someone because you know they get chemically enhanced and play much better as a result then that's your decision. Nothing wrong with that.

One thing I haven't seen written in this thread yet is the fact that when many players get "heart", "fearlessness", and "courage" from a pill or a bottle those same "qualities" vanish when they are off the stuff and playing on the natch. Then when they step up to the table they have to deal with nerves, anxiety, fears and nervousness that we all deal with all the time. Add to this, being 25 or 30 years older and I think it's easy to see the fears & doubts rise to the surface.

I'm glad Keith is clean and he has the love of a good woman to help him stay that way. That's more important than a pool match.

ONB

I played a lot of pool straight, a lot drunk, a lot high. Drunk and high weren't enhancements, I liked to drink and get high. Years later I played just as well on the natch. Still much later than that and after some major injuries I started shooting pistol and rifle competitions. Shot against hall of famers and world record holders, former world champions, maybe some current in the big events. I beat hall of famers and world record holders occasionally, they beat me a lot more often. I did it totally on the natch since I don't smoke tobacco, never have.

Speaking of which, don't people get these same benefits you are talking about from nicotine, some benefits from caffeine too. Sugar can give a serious rush all by itself. Where do we draw the line when we say someone is truly playing on the natural?

I am against playing sports on drugs mainly because it destroys injured people and animals. It does make those that are afraid or hate what they are doing perform better, the reasons given above are the major reasons for doping animals. I raced my horses on match tracks, on the natch. Perfectly legal to dope horses and common to watch the needles come out before a race. I conditioned my horses and brought them ready to race, clean as a whistle. My combined record was 9-0 when I moved on to other things.

Playing something that requires skill and precision like pool I don't care if the other person is on drugs, gives me an edge. I have known a lot of people that thought they played better on drugs, of course they thought they were playing fantastic when they couldn't make a ball in the ocean!

Drugs can make someone or something perform to their maximum potential if the mix is right for the entire time it takes them to compete. No drug makes any horse or human perform above it's maximum potential on the natch.

Hu

 

[CJ Wiley]

"I knew my mixture was off when I jumped the table on the lag!"

A friend of mine in Florida had a horse called "All Wired Up" - they wouldn't have drug tested him, but he went too far after winning a race and ran a "record setting" victory lap.

I heard a legendary player say one time "I knew my mixture was off when I jumped the table on the lag!"

No drug makes any horse or human perform above it's maximum potential on the natch.
[/B]
Hu

 

[ShootingArts]

horses

A friend of mine in Florida had a horse called "All Wired Up" - they wouldn't have drug tested him, but he went too far after winning a race and ran a "record setting" victory lap.

I heard a legendary player say one time "I knew my mixture was off when I jumped the table on the lag!"

My wife once scored a 90 during the grand entry at a rodeo but that was just because her horse was a little high strung!

Seen some crazy things at the track including a thoroughbred that spun so fast in one spot for maybe thirty seconds that he was just a high speed blur. Did that several times on the way to the gates at a Para-mutual track. The things horses did on elephant juice could be funny if it wasn't sad. One trainer bragged that he killed eight horses before he learned to use it.

I have seen large quantities of straight green alcohol shot into horse's veins and stuff that would get you a long time inside if you were caught with it. Several horses I was around went totally insane from the drugs injected in them, some of the most dangerous animals I have ever seen, not excluding lions and tigers. One match track I went to had over a dozen people killed there in the time it had been operating. Not riding accidents, handling dangerous horses. Once a horse gets his jaws over your shoulder you are dead unless you are packing and lucky or someone else saves your life.

Hu

 

[ribdoner]

played in altered states the majority of time from the early sixties ( didn't play from 65 through 74) at a weak shortstop level with the ability to fall into a zone (on rare occasions) until i stopped again in 79

when i started to play again in the mid 80"s, without "help", i knew that playing real slooooow drove the dopers up the wall. Pisst some off and got the cash against those that melted down because of the pace

pity the fools who couldn't kick and sold out to the addiction demon

hopefully substance abuse isn't as rampant today as it was