Can someone help me understand the thought process behind these requests?

So, how about this:
Rather than *YOU* sitting in front of a keyboard complaining about you perception of how this works, go run a tournament and show us all how to do it.

Quit the finger pointing and whining.

You got a better idea?? Show us how its done.




So I guess it's just the billionaires that are funding golf right? Oh wait, I mean billion dollar corporation. The ones that buy ad space, the ones that sponsor the tourneys. Because you know golf doesn't go off naming their tourneys Golf Course Xxxx w/ $5,000,000 added. They call the tourney by the name of the biggest sponsor.

Current promotors aren't able to get said type of sponsorship? Wonder why, must be the poor marketing strategy. A flyer, yea that's all the advertising we need to get people to show. Then as always day of event, plenty of open spots waiting to be taken. Promotors always sitting there scratching their head, "but I put out a flyer!"

If you think that the current ideology floating around that pool can only be self promoted, you're dead wrong. How often are spectacular shots in golf replayed in ads, but never for pool. But you're right, I'm wrong. What was I thinking trying to compare promoting tactics of pool to other sports.
 
So, how about this:
Rather than *YOU* sitting in front of a keyboard complaining about you perception of how this works, go run a tournament and show us all how to do it.

Quit the finger pointing and whining.

You got a better idea?? Show us how its done.

If someone comes to a open forum and asks a question ,,that person should expect to get some opinions they may or may not like plain and simple


1
 
So I guess it's just the billionaires that are funding golf right? Oh wait, I mean billion dollar corporation. The ones that buy ad space, the ones that sponsor the tourneys. Because you know golf doesn't go off naming their tourneys Golf Course Xxxx w/ $5,000,000 added. They call the tourney by the name of the biggest sponsor.

Current promotors aren't able to get said type of sponsorship? Wonder why, must be the poor marketing strategy. A flyer, yea that's all the advertising we need to get people to show. Then as always day of event, plenty of open spots waiting to be taken. Promotors always sitting there scratching their head, "but I put out a flyer!"

.

And pool never will !! I work for one of those companies that sponsors 2 big pro golf tournaments, and yep, they put their name on one, and their subsidiary company name on the other.

Why? Because there is an ROI expected, not to mention the amount of viewers watching at home and in person, which provides even more name recognition for the company brand, and many of the folks that are going to buy our product are 1000 times more likely to play golf than pool.

And the folks that make the decision to buy our product are spending millions, and in some cases tens of millions, to get our product. And we have LOTS of competition, so yeah, we want them to know who we are, what we do, and that we support the sport they love.... and I'm pretty sure some of our most "select" customers are going to be in attendance to enjoy the golf tourney...

So, if you are going to compare pool, stop doing it to golf, because it's just plain silly at this point and time. (and no, I don't play golf)
 
There are 100's of players that classify themselves as professional pool players. My understanding is there are 2 other events going on across the country the same weekend as the Nick Varner event; Rum Runner and the 2nd Tyme down in Texas. Since it is apparent that none of these events individually have the same added money as tournaments such as the US Opens or Derby City, wouldn't it make sense for promoters to encourage the players to attend the events closest to them. It would keep their expenses lower so if they placed lower in the money they could still make a few bucks.

There are two events that weekend. I never said there were problems with sign-ups for either event. The $8,500.00 added amateur event is full with a waiting list and the pro event is at least 2/3 full. I was just curious as to common practices in the industry regarding covering expenses for professional players.
 
so WHY, are you asking us for free ADVICE?

- this match was setup by Mark Cantrill months ago; different dates
- this match is being streamed by Justin @ TAR; no promos to him
- this match crosses w/ RumRunner's; established
- Justin/TAR & Mark Griffin have stated their opinions on BONUS BALL's conflicts
- some Pros have already been comped; they all talk to each other
- is your $$$$$ already in Trust, vs, RumRunners's credibility to pay on-the-spot?
- if Justin/TAR is part of this, then why isn't JUSTIN/TAR advising you?

regardless of WHAT/WHY these "pros" want,
you are apparently a business woman in the business of Pool Promotions now.
if you have to ask AZB for FREE ADVICE, then as a business woman, i would recommend that you hire someone who KNOWS the ins & outs of promoting....

.

I signed on to stream the Varner Classic recently. The event dates were already set. To me its not a big deal. The Rum Runner always fills usually with people from California/Phoenix/Vegas and a few pro's who fly in or are around anyway. I like what Str8Shots is trying to do and they made me a fair offer to do the stream so I am going.

To me the Rum Runner and Varner are apples and oranges. Rum Runner is race to 6 bar table 9 ball in a bar and the Varner is 10 Ball race to 8 on 9 foot Diamonds in a pool room. If I was a pro I would much rather risk my money on longer races and bigger tables but my guess is both events will do well regardless.

Obviously it would be good to schedule on different dates but sometimes that is not possible. An example of this is next weekend. TAR is doing SVB vs Efren the same weekend that Bonus Ball starts back. That was the only weekend Efren was available so I made the match. I would prefer to be the only PPV option on a weekend but sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.

As to pro's asking to be comped it happens all the time. There are maybe five guys I think can draw enough for that to make sense at a tournament. Most of them do not live in the US. It does get old when people who's biggest win is a Viking tour stop in 2005 who want RFB and Entry to show up. It used to make me nuts but now I know its just how things are so I shrug it off. For someone not used to it it can be baffling. It was to me at first.

Kimberly and her group are trying hard to do good things for the game. The only problem is they are used to doing business in the regular world. Not in the twilight zone that is pool.
 
I think it has already been firmly established that Str8 Shots are not con artists, or hustlers, and are only out to provide positive exposure for the game. If anything, there are a number of pro players who act like children when it comes time to "pay it forward" to help promote their own sport. Str8 Shots has already intelligently and articulately posted what their event is, and how the prize funds will be paid out. Play or don't...but don't expect them to bow down to these people, just because they "think" they're entitled to something (anything) just because they play well. Sorry, but in the real world it doesn't work that way...at least in the real pool world. The sooner the pro players, as a group, learn this hard fact, the sooner the sport can inch forward. I don't know about you, book collector, but I WORK for my money...and imo, so should the pro players...and it must be more than just showing up on game day, with their hand out.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I didn't say anything about them being con artists or crooks, and I didn't tell them to bow down to anyone.
She asked for some insight and I gave her my best answer.
Rereading my post might help clear this up for you.
 
My take on the situation is to tell the pros don't play. We are giving you nothing. I've done it numerous times and did last year and still had some show up. They will eventually play.

But a word to str8 shots, when listing your events, put them on AZB, and not on Nick Varners website only from the get go. That would help every other promoter, as most don't read Varners website. This would cause a lot less confusion.

It's unfortunate all these are the same weekend and the Indy bar table event that's been going 30 years is also. Hopefully it all works out and never happens again.

I'd advise always running your event out there the weekend before or after rum runners, that way it gives players a 2 for1 type deal to come. That's what we do with our event and White Diamonds, which are very similar events. We offer $4k guaranteed to 1st for $50. Plus the auction which was a total of 16.5k last year to 1st.

Best of luck to all.
 
....My understanding is there are 2 other events going on across the country the same weekend as the Nick Varner event; Rum Runner and the 2nd Tyme down in Texas....

again - if you're going to be in the Business - make sure you have ALL of the info. if not, then hire a consultant, who DOES.

you get what you pay for, Kimberly. and it takes money to make money.
 
I signed on to stream the Varner Classic recently. The event dates were already set. To me its not a big deal. The Rum Runner always fills usually with people from California/Phoenix/Vegas and a few pro's who fly in or are around anyway. I like what Str8Shots is trying to do and they made me a fair offer to do the stream so I am going.

To me the Rum Runner and Varner are apples and oranges. Rum Runner is race to 6 bar table 9 ball in a bar and the Varner is 10 Ball race to 8 on 9 foot Diamonds in a pool room. If I was a pro I would much rather risk my money on longer races and bigger tables but my guess is both events will do well regardless.

Obviously it would be good to schedule on different dates but sometimes that is not possible. An example of this is next weekend. TAR is doing SVB vs Efren the same weekend that Bonus Ball starts back. That was the only weekend Efren was available so I made the match. I would prefer to be the only PPV option on a weekend but sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.

As to pro's asking to be comped it happens all the time. There are maybe five guys I think can draw enough for that to make sense at a tournament. Most of them do not live in the US.]It does get old when people who's biggest win is a Viking tour stop in 2005 who want RFB and Entry to show up. It used to make me nuts but now I know its just how things are so I shrug it off. For someone not used to it it can be baffling. It was to me at first.

Kimberly and her group are trying hard to do good things for the game. The only problem is they are used to doing business in the regular world. Not in the twilight zone that is pool.

i thought my post would draw you out, Justin -

and i hope you realize, that within my post, i was in YOUR defense - cause there was no-ooooo reference to YOU/TAR in the OP. you got me?

i'm not getting into a pissin' match. cause you've got 7 inches on me (albeit i can jump!) & i absolutely respect you for what you've accomplished & your shooting straight.

so let me just say:

we all have to do, what we have to do, with what we have.... and go where the money is....

i hope you're covered in advance. and being comped for your advice.
 
i thought my post would draw you out, Justin -

and i hope you realize, that within my post, i was in YOUR defense - cause there was no-ooooo reference to YOU/TAR in the OP. you got me?

i'm not getting into a pissin' match. cause you've got 7 inches on me (albeit i can jump!) & i absolutely respect you for what you've accomplished & your shooting straight.

so let me just say:

we all have to do, what we have to do, with what we have.... and go where the money is....

i hope you're covered in advance. and being comped for your advice.

Its possible there was no mention because a contract has not been signed yet. I agreed verbally to do the event. Kimberly, unlike many people I have dealt with in this industry has been exceedingly professional. So its no surprise to me she hasn't mentioned my involvement because its not set in stone yet. I expect the contract and deposit will be handled in due time. At which time the announcement will be posted in the proper places.

Want to guess how many jobs in pool I have had ever had either of those things? My experience with Str8Shots has been nothing but positive. As I have stated before the only thing Str8Shots has had an issue with is simply being unfamiliar with how things have worked in the past.
 
Its possible there was no mention because a contract has not been signed yet. I agreed verbally to do the event. Kimberly, unlike many people I have dealt with in this industry has been exceedingly professional. So its no surprise to me she hasn't mentioned my involvement because its not set in stone yet. I expect the contract and deposit will be handled in due time. At which time the announcement will be posted in the proper places.

Want to guess how many jobs in pool I have had ever had either of those things? My experience with Str8Shots has been nothing but positive. As I have stated before the only thing Str8Shots has had an issue with is simply being unfamiliar with how things have worked in the past.

it can, in general, sometimes be a crap-shoot, from my understanding. but you're a Big-Boy. (literally.) check your PMs.
 
I understand that your friendship with Mark Cantrill has you believing you have an inside scoop on what transpired with this event but maybe you should take the time to verify what you have been told with all parties before making blanket statements. First of all Mark Cantrill worked for Str8 Shots when this event was planned. PERIOD. As for the dates being different, Mark never had different dates. You can verify this by talking with Nick directly. He also knew that it would be beneficial to the Nick Varner event and the Wyoming Open to have them back to back weekends.

Mark knew there was a possibility this event would conflict with Rum Runner. We ran into the same problem last year with these dates. He booked a Legends and Champions tour stop with us and Darren couldn’t come to the last stop because he was committed to the Rum Runner. We, not Mark, had to find another player to fill the slot so the event could go as planned and did so at our expense.

As for announcing the event; we sent hundreds of emails, it was shared on FB hundreds of times by many, many individuals in the industry. It was posted on our site and was supposed to be posted on AZ. I am not sure if it ever got on AZ because I was not posting on this site in early October; Mark was supposed to take care of posting things on the forum. When we became aware of conflicts we did our best to notify others. When Johnny Archer posted that he was moving his classic to March, we asked Mark to let him know the Nick Varner dates. You can verify this with Johnny.

Did you develop the promos for this event? How do you know what we have planned for TAR/Justin? Yes I let Justin know that there were other events when the same weekend as this event. My understanding was that Justin spoke to Mark about it to make sure it wouldn't be a conflict before getting back to me.

As for players being comped, Str8 Shots SPONSORED players are getting there expenses covered. So are the players we sponsor that are going to Rum Runner and the 2nd Big Tyme event. None of our sponsored players are being forced to come to this event. They were asked and those that are coming wanted too.

As for the money there has never been an issue with any of the winners at our events getting paid. The money is in the envelopes and there for players to verify before the tournament starts.

As for free advice wasn’t it you that pointed out to me that this was the best place to go for advice? Wasn’t it you that told us not to fault Mark for coming on here and getting advice about trying to do a match between Danny and John? Wasn’t it you that said there was a wealth of information to be gained by coming to these boards for advice about things happening in the industry?
 
I understand that your friendship with Mark Cantrill has you believing you have an inside scoop on what transpired with this event but maybe you should take the time to verify what you have been told with all parties before making blanket statements. First of all Mark Cantrill worked for Str8 Shots when this event was planned. PERIOD. As for the dates being different, Mark never had different dates. You can verify this by talking with Nick directly. He also knew that it would be beneficial to the Nick Varner event and the Wyoming Open to have them back to back weekends.

Mark knew there was a possibility this event would conflict with Rum Runner. We ran into the same problem last year with these dates. He booked a Legends and Champions tour stop with us and Darren couldn’t come to the last stop because he was committed to the Rum Runner. We, not Mark, had to find another player to fill the slot so the event could go as planned and did so at our expense.

As for announcing the event; we sent hundreds of emails, it was shared on FB hundreds of times by many, many individuals in the industry. It was posted on our site and was supposed to be posted on AZ. I am not sure if it ever got on AZ because I was not posting on this site in early October; Mark was supposed to take care of posting things on the forum. When we became aware of conflicts we did our best to notify others. When Johnny Archer posted that he was moving his classic to March, we asked Mark to let him know the Nick Varner dates. You can verify this with Johnny.

Did you develop the promos for this event? How do you know what we have planned for TAR/Justin? Yes I let Justin know that there were other events when the same weekend as this event. My understanding was that Justin spoke to Mark about it to make sure it wouldn't be a conflict before getting back to me.

As for players being comped, Str8 Shots SPONSORED players are getting there expenses covered. So are the players we sponsor that are going to Rum Runner and the 2nd Big Tyme event. None of our sponsored players are being forced to come to this event. They were asked and those that are coming wanted too.

As for the money there has never been an issue with any of the winners at our events getting paid. The money is in the envelopes and there for players to verify before the tournament starts.

As for free advice wasn’t it you that pointed out to me that this was the best place to go for advice? Wasn’t it you that told us not to fault Mark for coming on here and getting advice about trying to do a match between Danny and John? Wasn’t it you that said there was a wealth of information to be gained by coming to these boards for advice about things happening in the industry?

In case anyone hasn't said it yet, thank you for creating more pool-shooting opportunities on American soil.

You may soon discover that the *majority* on this forum seem to believe that professional players are bums with no jobs, the scum of the earth, and should never been granted a crumb for their pool-playing capabilities. This thread is a good example of *YET AGAIN* another pro-player bashing thread. It happens quite frequently. In the American pool culture, pool is cruel to its own, whether you're a professional pool player or a tournament promoter or even a live-streamer offer a live pool match-up for free.

I am so pleased that you have decided to work in the American pool world. We could use more people just like you. There are indeed factions in this American pool world, and the loyalty of some are fickle and change as often as the weather. :o

My personal experience, when my other half, who used to compete in two, three, and four tournaments per month, with me handling the logistics, et cetera, is that we never accepted "free" entries, "free" lodging," or "free" money to attend an event. The reasons why are so we don't feel obligated to anyone and can enjoy the tournament to its fullest without dancing like a monkey for another. My other half would perform exhibitions, give lessons, and do things for tournament promoters for free, because that's how he rolls, and we like it like that. Nobody can thereafter claim he should have danced better because he was paid to do so. In other words, he danced to the beat of his own drum *and* on his own dime. :grin-square:

I hope you-all make your way to the East Coast sometime soon. We East Coast people would certainly welcome more pool happenings. :)

Looking forward to reading all about the Colorado tournament! :yes:
 
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Pro entries paid?

To address one of the main points -

I don't believe the Rum Runner pays any players to be at the event. This is a bar table tournament, limited to 64 players and always fills up.

The two events are very different - but I believe any player alluding they get any kind of comp to the Rum Runner is bring misleading.

This is just my opinion since I have nothing to do with the promotion of the event.

Mark Griffin
 
Add more tourneys with lesser payouts, it then becomes a matter of traveling the right route to hit them with the least expenditure. Or make the payouts bigger so that every time a tourney happens the big dogs aren't required to play because they've won enough money to not feel the pressure to compete.

We get it...bigger prizes would be better. Where do you suggest the money should come from? At some point, we may just have to admit that certain sports/games don't have the right combination of fan interest, retail equipment market size, and marketability to be in the same ballpark as golf, tennis or even bowling.

But back to the question...where is this bigger prize money coming from?
 
Agreed

Originally Posted by Hits 'em Hard
So the fragmentation of 'promoters' for these pro events isn't an issue? You ever notice how each weekend there is only one FedEx Cup point golf tourney? Same goes for darts and bowling. There's only one at a time. Only one Nascar race at a time. I'm intentionally showing that in the case of single player competitions there isn't the same fragmentation in other sports like there is in pool.

Is adding more $5,000 first place payout tourneys a good idea? Hell no it ain't. I know a few people out there that could compete with SVB on the pool table, but why should they give up they're $1,000,000+/year job to go play pro pool for chump change?


You got me here, I'm throwing the "bullshit flag".

AGREED!!! Who are these random people that can compete with SVB that make any salary..let alone $1 million + per year..impossible is an understatement.
 
Marketing is the highest value in a business, especially when competing with an existing business.

Work on marketing. Then work on it some more. Never quit marketing. Allocate some of that money for marketing first.

Jeff Livingston
 
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