Challenge of Champions dump

Who dares call themselves judge, and jury of another man?

Blue Hog ridr said:
CJ, you know what can burn your butt better than Karma for defending wrong doing on a message board.

The Akashic Records. That stuff has already been recorded. You is gonna have some splainin to do at a later date.
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Can anyone really pretend they're "judge and jury" - it's really ironic when you think about it.......and think about it......and think about it........and.......think......about......it......:deadhorse:
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, Harry has been working hard to establish a legitimate structure for pool betting

itsfroze said:
C. J. that's why they don't have sports betting right ??? LOL

Originally Posted By, C.J.:
"Vegas only frowns on gambling at pool because it takes away people's time to gamble on other things (that they control and profit from) like dice, blackjack, poker, etc."
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I believe Harry Plattis can answer that question.....I will assure you that the 'Challenge of Champions' has nothing to do with pool not being on the sports book in Vegas.

Harry-DCC-web.jpg



Harry Platis is a name synonymous with pool action over the last thirty years, yet at the same time, he is a successful lawyer – not your everyday combination. Yet as Harry describes it, his vocation in law is not unrelated to his avocation in pool. As a successful Seattle lawyer, most of his practice is contingency based, so there is a substantial risk involved nearly every time he takes a case. Like in pool action, there is a lot of groundwork in assessing the chances of winning, and also like a pool match, in his law practice Harry typically doesn’t get paid unless he wins the case. All in all, the high stakes gamesmanship of courtroom maneuvering and settlement negotiations have a lot in common with the way big pool action unfolds. As Harry says, “I could always handle the stress of high level gambling real well.”

So, did his comfort level at gambling in pool develop from his experience practicing law, or was it the law practice risks that came easier because of his pool experience? As Harry tells it, pool came first. Growing up in Seattle, Washington, Harry’s family had a bar and restaurant that happened to have a pool table. As Harry remembers it, there was one outstanding player that used to come in there, who helped Harry develop into a pretty good player himself. “After high school I went to college, but I spent so much time in the local poolrooms that I flunked out.” After he flunked out of college that first time, Harry hit the road playing pool, but after a short stint going all out at it, Harry realized pool alone might not offer the future he envisioned for himself. He returned to school with renewed determination, first to finish his undergraduate degree, and finally to Gonzaga to study law in their night school program. Harry graduated in 1969 and started his own law practice in 1970.

After his mother died in a tragic fire in 1980, Harry started back in with pool in earnest. By that time, he was doing very well for himself in his law practice so he was able to turn to pool as a high stakes recreational outlet. Harry figures he played his best from about 1980-85, when he was single and was doing well in his practice. Warren ‘Monk’ Costanza was a big influence on his One Pocket game. Even though he is a little older now, Harry still likes to get it on with good players. For the last few years, Harry has been working hard to establish a legitimate structure for parimutuel betting on pool and other sports.
 
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Hey, I like being a Prisoner at the Bar.

People have told me that I should have Morales. I always tell them that if you split that word in 2, it says Mor ales.

I'm always up for that.
 
CJ Wiley said:
... I played in the next Challenge of Champions and they made me a 7/2 underdog against the field [/SIZE][/B] ... the 'Challenge of Champions is still on after 22 more years......and that's the facts.
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No, that's not the facts.

You didn't play in the next (1992) Challenge of Champions. That one involved Varner, Rempe, Lebron, Strickland, Davenport, Hopkins, Archer, and Hall (event winner over Archer).

Nor did you play in the 1993 Challenge of Champions. That one involved Hall, Archer, Davenport, Sigel, Strickland, Varner, Rempe, and Hopkins (event winner over Rempe).

You did play in the 1994 Challenge of Champions at the Mirage, losing your first match 1-7 to Archer. The other players were Sigel, Hopkins, Strickland, Martinez, Ellen, and Varner (event winner over Ellen).

And the Challenge of Champions did go on for 22 years in total (1991 - 2012), but it was not played in 2013. I reported that to you four months ago: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4548053&postcount=144
 
Swamp Land in Florida Anyone?

I know when I played in the tournament and it was AFTER the 91 Event (I didn't start playing Pro Pool until 91/92)...."one of the next" if you want to get anal about it. The point is what's important, they were still booking the matches AFTER the 91 Event where Mike Lebron was victorious.

The popular rumor is the 91 Event somehow made "Vegas" not book the matches anymore and gave "pool" a bad reputation......none of this is true, I was there and the game was clearly not affected by the alleged controversy over the finals. The PBTA was the governing body of pool and Don Mackey the commissioner.......now that might have been a bit "controversial" in some people's minds.

If anyone is determined to believe these rumors, they can feel free to believe anything they want........and I have some land in west Texas they may want to consider as well.

Swamp land in Florida anyone? :groucho:
everglades.jpg




AtLarge said:
No, that's not the facts.

You didn't play in the next (1992) Challenge of Champions. That one involved Varner, Rempe, Lebron, Strickland, Davenport, Hopkins, Archer, and Hall (event winner over Archer).

Nor did you play in the 1993 Challenge of Champions. That one involved Hall, Archer, Davenport, Sigel, Strickland, Varner, Rempe, and Hopkins (event winner over Rempe).

You did play in the 1994 Challenge of Champions at the Mirage, losing your first match 1-7 to Archer. The other players were Sigel, Hopkins, Strickland, Martinez, Ellen, and Varner (event winner over Ellen).

And the Challenge of Champions did go on for 22 years in total (1991 - 2012), but it was not played in 2013. I reported that to you four months ago: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=4548053&postcount=144
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CJ Wiley said:
I know when I played in the tournament and it was AFTER the 91 Event (I didn't start playing Pro Pool until 91/92)...."one of the next" if you want to get anal about it. The point is what's important, they were still booking the matches AFTER the 91 Event where Mike Lebron was victorious.

The popular rumor is the 91 Event somehow made "Vegas" not book the matches anymore and gave "pool" a bad reputation......none of this is true, I was there and the game was clearly not affected by the alleged controversy over the finals. The PBTA was the governing body of pool and Don Mackey the commissioner.......now that might have been a bit "controversial" in some people's minds.

If anyone is determined to believe these rumors, they can feel free to believe anything they want........and I have some land in west Texas they may want to consider as well.

Swamp land in Florida anyone? :groucho:
everglades.jpg
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Hey CJ,
I don't know why this something that you want to go to great lengths to claim didn't happen or didn't have an effect on the game, it is pretty much past history and a footnote at that, (even though there are recent multiple threads on the subject).
But when you say something here you're talking to a pretty knowledgable audience, and if they see BS, they are going to call BS.

Remember the thread where there was a picture of a guy and the OP asked who it was and you said it was a 'Godfather' out of New Orleans? Turned out it was some guy nicknamed Mr. Coffee. That kind of thing is going to be pointed out when it happens, even though it was an honest mistake. This is a tough crowd to blow smoke with.
 
Vegas was still booking pool matches after that ?
I saw two PBT World 8-Ball at the Riviera.
There was no betting line on the event.
Efren won it one year ( his second in a row ) then Busti the year after .
 
When I played in the 'Challenge of Champions' the Mirage was booking the matches.

punter said:
Hey CJ,
I don't know why this something that you want to go to great lengths to claim didn't happen or didn't have an effect on the game, it is pretty much past history and a footnote at that, (even though there are recent multiple threads on the subject).
But when you say something here you're talking to a pretty knowledgable audience, and if they see BS, they are going to call BS.

Remember the thread where there was a picture of a guy and the OP asked who it was and you said it was a 'Godfather' out of New Orleans? Turned out it was some guy nicknamed Mr. Coffee. That kind of thing is going to be pointed out when it happens, even though it was an honest mistake. This is a tough crowd to blow smoke with.
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So you're saying "Mr. Coffee" is not the Godfather out of New Orleans? :clapping:

When I played in the 'Challenge of Champions' the Mirage was booking the matches.....I remember it clearly, Earl and I played golf every day while we were there. Bobby Baldwin was our host at the Mirage and he even invited us to play SHADOW CREEK GOLF COURSE......speaking of "funny," we sat down with Joe Pesci for 45 minutes, Allen Hopkins and he used to hang out at the same pool room.

But I digress.......the 'Challenge of Champions' I played in was booked, this (in my mind) proves that Vegas didn't "black-ball" pool after the 91 Challenge of Champions.....is it ok to point this out, or is this too factual? I played in a LOT of tournaments in Vegas between 92 and 97 and NEVER heard a word about any supposed "dump"......and Harry Platis would know if it's ever come up while he's pursued getting gambling on pool organized.....I'll bet he's never heard it mentioned.
 
CJ Wiley said:
So you're saying "Mr. Coffee" is not the Godfather out of New Orleans? :clapping:

When I played in the 'Challenge of Champions' the Mirage was booking the matches.....I remember it clearly, Earl and I played golf every day while we were there. Bobby Baldwin was our host at the Mirage and he even invited us to play SHADOW CREEK GOLF COURSE......speaking of "funny," we sat down with Joe Pesci for 45 minutes, Allen Hopkins and he used to hang out at the same pool room.

But I digress.......the 'Challenge of Champions' I played in was booked, this (in my mind) proves that Vegas didn't "black-ball" pool after the 91 Challenge of Champions.....is it ok to point this out, or is this too factual? I played in a LOT of tournaments in Vegas between 92 and 97 and NEVER heard a word about any supposed "dump"......and Harry Platis would know if it's ever come up while he's pursued getting gambling on pool organized.....I'll bet he's never heard it mentioned.
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All I can judge by is watching the match, and at least one post on here where Jay Helfert, who worked the tournament, says it was a dump. So whatever. It wasn't pretty anyway you slice it. Here's what Jay said in another thread:

"Allen knew about it and would not participate, out of his allegiance to Matt Braun. First time I've seen these last few racks in years. The missed eight ball by Buddy in rack sixteen was so UGLY! He would never miss that shot in life! And then the way he hit that eight-nine combo was something to behold. He had to take dead aim to hit it that bad. That combination was almost a hanger for the real Buddy. Of course he had six other guys counting on him. He couldn't let them down.

It's a wonder Mike made that last nine ball. Have to wonder what Buddy would have done had he hung it up. Maybe followed it in with the cue ball. CRAZY! I was standing only a few feet away during all this and my stomach was churning. Nothing I could do except gulp and hold my breath. Matt Braun was smart enough to know that something funny was going on. It's amazing that he even had the Challenge the following year.

I'll never forget the players meeting the night before the second Challenge. I KNEW what was on the agenda and at that point in the meeting Matt asked me to leave the room. I'm sure he lowered the boom on all eight players, threatening to not pay them if anything funny went on again. And it didn't! From the second year on, there were never any shenanigans again, although it is rumored that one year the finalists made a 10K saver (40 and 10). That doesn't bother me nearly as much. "

The truth is the teacher

who's a better source, the guy who ran the tournament or Harry Platis?

P.S. The guy did look a little like Carlos "The Little Man" Marcello
 
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Straightpool_99 said:
I wanted to show how real pressure looks like. So here is a classic short video about the match between Dennis Taylor and Steve Davis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDNpyNHrmjk

Watch that video and compare with this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y12sL1oR2s

The Davis/Taylor video is what true pressure looks like. Look at poor Steve Davis towards the end. All the blood is gone from his face, and look at how he walks as well. It's a study in body language. It actually hurts to watch. Dennis Taylor's showing the pressure too. I don't think many of you will think this match was fixed after watching it. The play in the match is not all that great, but for someone interested in sports psychology, it's a must watch. You can't fake that kind of body language, I don't care how good of an actor you are. It gives some good lessons too. I especially thought Steve's words on how he talked himself into missing were very moving. I think we've all been there.
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This proves nothing. Buddy has been under "real pressure" many times and never showed the physical signs of stress they did.

Buddy is a role model for composure and he reacts exactly how I would expect to see him react to that match if it is on the square, pretty much emotionally controlled even after an important miss. He had one of the greatest competitive minds ever imo.
 
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CJ Wiley said:
I know when I played in the tournament and it was AFTER the 91 Event (I didn't start playing Pro Pool until 91/92)...."one of the next" if you want to get anal about it. The point is what's important, they were still booking the matches AFTER the 91 Event where Mike Lebron was victorious.

The popular rumor is the 91 Event somehow made "Vegas" not book the matches anymore and gave "pool" a bad reputation......none of this is true, I was there and the game was clearly not affected by the alleged controversy over the finals. The PBTA was the governing body of pool and Don Mackey the commissioner.......now that might have been a bit "controversial" in some people's minds.

If anyone is determined to believe these rumors, they can feel free to believe anything they want........and I have some land in west Texas they may want to consider as well.

Swamp land in Florida anyone? :groucho:
everglades.jpg
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It is you who fails to see the teacherforest for the teachertree.

Nobody cares which coc you played, or if Vegas booked the sport after the dump.

Lebron was gifted that tourney win, and not just by buddy hall...even though that is the vid that gets the most references.
 
It's obvious

Too much!

the miss on the 8 in the next to last game is unreal.

Trying to scratch over and over, with some success.

The 8 to 9 combo is so bad, Buddy actually hits the 8 on the wrong side, to drive the 9 away from the pocket.

It takes all of CJ's formidable mental powers to convince himself this is on the square.
 
When the score was 7to 7 Buddy fires the 1 at the 9 missing it by at least 60 feet. I think anyone really trying to win would of tried to play safe on that shot. Guys at his level just don't do what he done most of that match.
 
especially the 8/9 combo

Chesscat said:
Too much!

the miss on the 8 in the next to last game is unreal.

Trying to scratch over and over, with some success.

The 8 to 9 combo is so bad, Buddy actually hits the 8 on the wrong side, to drive the 9 away from the pocket.

It takes all of CJ's formidable mental powers to convince himself this is on the square.
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I agree; I have respect for CJ; but on this matter, he is reaching and stretching way too much....
No way Buddy Hall does that awful 8/9 miss legitimately......and the way he jumped up on the shot doesn't get any nomination for an Academy Award either.....LOL
 
It happens in all sports. In 1989 Scot Hoch missed a two-foot put in a playoff that would have won the Masters and changed his life. Hey...it happens in pool too. Call it what you like; choke, buck fever, spit the bit, can't win the big one...and many more.
 
Sure Jar. I get 8 Ball Fever often, even on easy ones.

We're not talking one miss by Buddy, but his over all play thru out his entire match with Mike.

Redo that match over for 50K when the Dump wasn't on and I bet that it would be all over for Mike in a blink.

CJ is trying to defend the obvious. Jay comes on and tells it like it was, and tells CJ to
stick what he knows, not what he thinks.

I'll put my money on Jay's knowledge of this one.

Just watching a young Keith Mac and Efron play at the moment. Either one of them would have put the lights out for Mike or Buddy with their slop.

One poster said that he can forgive them because it was a Casino that took the hit. Under different circumstances in years past, that kind of action
may have got you a trip to the desert.

Now, I can kind of agree with him on that one considering that the odds are stacked in a Casinos favor always. But, you can be sure that there was some behind the scenes talk of this Dump among people in Vegas. They weren't about to allow something like this happen again.

One can only speculate on how this did or didn't affect pool in Vegas for the future but as Jay also said, "This was another Black Eye for pool".
 
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