Charlie Williams
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NYC cue dude said:
Very sad post, NYC cue dude. I've always said that pool's toughest critics do come from within its own culture.
Maybe that's the reason pool as a sport hasn't advanced. There's a class struggle, those who have the means and think they are better than all others and those who strive to be all that they can be, but don't have the funds to follow the tournament trail.
I wish you and your wife the very best.
Sign me, a mere plebian who frequents pool halls and proud of it.
JAM
All About Charlie
When I first started reading this thread I was a bit bewildered at all the animosity directed at Charlie. I am glad to see a few people posting on some of his good points.
First, I must say Charlie is definitely a top drawer pool player, certainly in the World's top 50 players. He has won major tournaments with all the top guys and is nearly always in the top ten. So, he CAN play!
My hat goes off to anyone who would step up at such a young age and try to do something to better the sport. There are many poolplayers around who only want to criticize someone elses efforts, and never would dare to try to do anything themself.
Take it from one who has been there, that promoting professional pool tournaments can be a thankless and unrewarding task. It is probably the lowest paying job I've ever had. Owning billiard rooms and investing in real estate have paid my bills; not tournament promotion. It is a labor of love, by people who wish to showcase the talents of great poolplayers and give them a venue to be seen.
Charlie has always been most cordial and courteous with me at every juncture. My dealings with the UPA were handled professionally and all was above board. I would not hesitate to work with Charlie or Frank Alvarez again. That is all I wanted to say on this subject.
When I first started reading this thread I was a bit bewildered at all the animosity directed at Charlie. I am glad to see a few people posting on some of his good points.
First, I must say Charlie is definitely a top drawer pool player, certainly in the World's top 50 players. He has won major tournaments with all the top guys and is nearly always in the top ten. So, he CAN play!
My hat goes off to anyone who would step up at such a young age and try to do something to better the sport. There are many poolplayers around who only want to criticize someone elses efforts, and never would dare to try to do anything themself.
Take it from one who has been there, that promoting professional pool tournaments can be a thankless and unrewarding task. It is probably the lowest paying job I've ever had. Owning billiard rooms and investing in real estate have paid my bills; not tournament promotion. It is a labor of love, by people who wish to showcase the talents of great poolplayers and give them a venue to be seen.
Charlie has always been most cordial and courteous with me at every juncture. My dealings with the UPA were handled professionally and all was above board. I would not hesitate to work with Charlie or Frank Alvarez again. That is all I wanted to say on this subject.
NYC cue dude said:
RG,
I hope you'll consider that fact that quite a few here showed support for Charlie, and I suspect a great many readers would like to have shown support but know better than to get into the middle of such threads.
A few negative comments is not representative of the whole community here. Part of being in a pool hall, a night club or any social gathering is experiencing contrasting or offensive opinions from some within the group. The same holds true here.
Colin
I just want to point out to toastie here and now that I back cw all the way and the reason this thread was started was because I was digusted by the way cw was being treated by people in the pool world, no harm was meant to cw because I am 100% behind him.
Please give him my best regards toastie and here's hoping you still consider me a fan
Please give him my best regards toastie and here's hoping you still consider me a fan
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=17235&highlight=charlie+williams
I pulled a thread from last year when someone asked about CW and DP. I still stand by my statements. He has done soo much for the sport. I challenge anyone of you haters to promote a successful tour and play along side the best in the world.
I pulled a thread from last year when someone asked about CW and DP. I still stand by my statements. He has done soo much for the sport. I challenge anyone of you haters to promote a successful tour and play along side the best in the world.
Blackjack said:
Wow that is a completely different attitude than what you had when I spoke to you in Orlando... What happened?
thorstenhohmann said:
Thorsten,
I don't know Charlie personally so I cannot talk for or against his work ethic, personality or integrity. I can only talk about what has been obvious for the past couple of years. I have not been affected by what Charlie has done so I would think that my word is not jaded by feelings or past dealings. I DO read billiard news and try to get to every pro event that I can near my home here in Florida. (which you know are mostly dragon promoted or UPA sanctioned). I talk with the pros in the stands and I have got to say that there are quite a few that do not agree with your opinion. Are you able to deny the publicity that the UPA and Charlie has got over the past few years? I have not bad mouthed CW I just don't agree with some of the practices and decisions that he and the UPA has made. Had the UPA worked with the existing tours, instead of trying to strong arm them, opinions would have been different.
To say that the opinion of the general public does not count because we "have never done anything for the sport, don't know the players, don't know nothing about pool politics" is so far off the mark. If it wasn't for us you wouldn't be playing in tournaments because, believe it or not, it is our interest in the sport and our money we put into it that supply the funds to the sponsers that pay the promoters that fund the prize money. If that forces me to not be a fan of yours then so be it.
John <--- Guesses he is a smart ass and can make 2 balls in a row.
This is great, someone to take the heat off of good old Earl.
Ha Ha.
Charlie being a top 50 player? Hell, I'd rank him in the top 25.
Too bad the Gremlin is banned here he would straighten all you nay sayers out. he is a big fan of CW.
He made quite a few decisions over the past few years that didn't sit right with a lot of people but you have to give him credit for making the decisions - right or wrong. He didn't just talk the game, he did something.
The only decision that upset me was when he announced at a tournament where he charged admission that none of the pro players would be signing cue balls or cue cases. He, among other misinformed people, thought that they were bringing big bucks on Ebay. When actually they have no value at all on Ebay.
We know what Thorsten Hohmann thinks of Charlie now if only we could get Earl Strickland to give his opinion.
I'm with SJM "Long live Charlie Williams". He is from "south" Korea isn't he?
Jake
Ha Ha.
Charlie being a top 50 player? Hell, I'd rank him in the top 25.
Too bad the Gremlin is banned here he would straighten all you nay sayers out. he is a big fan of CW.
He made quite a few decisions over the past few years that didn't sit right with a lot of people but you have to give him credit for making the decisions - right or wrong. He didn't just talk the game, he did something.
The only decision that upset me was when he announced at a tournament where he charged admission that none of the pro players would be signing cue balls or cue cases. He, among other misinformed people, thought that they were bringing big bucks on Ebay. When actually they have no value at all on Ebay.
We know what Thorsten Hohmann thinks of Charlie now if only we could get Earl Strickland to give his opinion.
I'm with SJM "Long live Charlie Williams". He is from "south" Korea isn't he?
Jake
Johnny "V" said:
I have not always seen eye to eye with Charlie, however Charlie has always been open to communication with those issues. Charlie understands that he's not going to be able make everybody happy. Charlie makes errors in judgment, but then again I believe that is caused by having so much to deal with and so little time to take care of it. In my dealings with Charlie, he has always been respectful and he has never been arrogant or condescending. He has been professional when talking about business, when business is put aside, he's a good friend to talk with.
As far as "what happened" - I think that the fact that Danny subtitled his post "in Charlie's defense" explains what happened more than anything. I have a lot of respect for Danny and Charlie for working through that and leaving the past in the past.
For those that don't understand the dynamics of the UPA or Dragon Promotions, it is not a one man show. Charlie, Frank Alvarez, Tony Robles, Marty Rimlinger, and Luc Salvas work as a team to take care of the players and assist in organizing the events.
The DP team of Charlie, Cindy Lee, and James West works round the clock at every UPA event taking care of many aspects of event planning that most fans have never heard about. In return, they get criticized when things don't go well. My answer to that is that Charlie inherited professional pool from the ruins of what Don Mackey left behind. Nobody was out there knocking other people down to get to the front of the line to help men's professional pool. The UPA started as a grass roots effort by people that wanted to see it grow. Ask any tour promoter - ITS NOT EASY. Like Jay said, it is a thankless job where you work 24/7 only get kicked in the nuts afterwards by people that want to insult your efforts. I remember when the WPBA first started out on its own - some events were complete disasters and I know those early days shaved about 5 years off the lives of Vicki Paski and Peg Ledman, but they stuck with it, learned from their mistakes and moved forward.
Johnny "V" said:
Well stated, Johnny "V."
In an ideal pool world, there should exist a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD where ALL PLAYERS ARE TREATED EQUAL.
In Vegas, a few short weeks ago, as I gazed out into the audience, it was the same cast of regulars: friends, family members, fans, and those who have been passionate about pool for sometime.
What will elevate the sport, at least here in the States, is when a new audience comes forth. I for one hope to see pool grow leaps and bounds, but it is important to remember the folks who have supported pool thus far. This does not exclude the EXISTING culture consisting of fans, friends and family, industry members, players of all caliber, and, yes, people who frequent pool rooms. To label them as "scumbags" is disgusting and in poor taste. JMHO, FWIW!
JAM
I have no idea what Charlie does in terms of promotions. But I stand by what I said about him being out of place playing on the mosconi team...I watched a couple of the matches he played...and it was terrible pool. I'm not talking about misses...I'm talking about bad lines, bad patterns, etc. I saw him play another time...it was a skins match on tv - and it was the same story, bad lines, out of line, shooting balls in wrong pockets, and working hard. Maybe it was the tv tables. But when you look at that and put it next to Morris, Strickland, etc. it looks even worse. That is my honest opinion.
thorstenhohmann said:
Blackjack said:
And that is why I think you are a straightup individual.
JV
Does someone have some stats on Charlie's performances the last few years.
From what I have seen, he seems to put in a good show at just about every event he enters. It would seem to me he deserves a high ranking among the elites of the game.
Colin
From what I have seen, he seems to put in a good show at just about every event he enters. It would seem to me he deserves a high ranking among the elites of the game.
Colin
Blackjack said:
There have been far more than those stated in the UPA efforts.
Here are some of those that were not mentioned:
Teddy Garrahan
Corey Harper
Jeremy Jones
Jimmy Wetch
Nick Varner
Johnny Archer
Max Eberle
Phil Muller
Bill Meacham
Harold Seigel
Robert Lipson
Ralf Souquet
Jack McGinnis
As a former UPA Board Member, I have spent some time with Charlie and though I rarely agree with his politics, I applaud him for his drive, vision and just having the balls to get things done.
He still pisses me off a little here and there (politics & as a promoter), but he is overall a good guy.
Quite Intelligent!!!!
Can we have some intelligent defense for Charlie Williams. I realize that he was your corner man in the IPT and he sponsers you in the events you play, but come on lets look beyond what he does for you. My experience was in Athens, Ga for the UPA event. He did nothing to bring crowds into the event. While the room had to front 8 grand and he kept the larger percentage of the door money. What a move that is!!!!! Maybe I should learn from him. Do much of nothing for the room itself, make most of the money and then in return play in the event. His promotion is all for the players and nothing for the people that the tour leaches off of for the 5 days it is there.
Sure its great for you guys because you get a shot at making some money, but this is the exact reason why there is not a successful mens tour like the WPBA. Mens pro level pool has been a fly by the night operation until the IPT came along. I suppose we can thank old Charlie for it too......
thorstenhohmann said:
Can we have some intelligent defense for Charlie Williams. I realize that he was your corner man in the IPT and he sponsers you in the events you play, but come on lets look beyond what he does for you. My experience was in Athens, Ga for the UPA event. He did nothing to bring crowds into the event. While the room had to front 8 grand and he kept the larger percentage of the door money. What a move that is!!!!! Maybe I should learn from him. Do much of nothing for the room itself, make most of the money and then in return play in the event. His promotion is all for the players and nothing for the people that the tour leaches off of for the 5 days it is there.
Sure its great for you guys because you get a shot at making some money, but this is the exact reason why there is not a successful mens tour like the WPBA. Mens pro level pool has been a fly by the night operation until the IPT came along. I suppose we can thank old Charlie for it too......
What a disheartening thread!
I've already had my say, and as I've noted, I see Charlie as a great visionary and presence in our sport. But that's just my view, and I recognize that I probably have far greater access to him than most. Other posters have had interactions with Charlie, on which they base their impression of him, and that's appropriate. Those with little or no access have to go on hearsay and on their own impressions of our sport, and that's completely understandable.
Charlie, like every player-promoter before him is a controversial figure. He has been bashed unfairly, and far too often, by his fellow professional players. Unfortunately, far too many of them painted a very negative picture of Charlie as a power-crazed, money-crazed, self-serving kind of guy. Nothing that could ever happen on this forum could undo the damage done to Charlie's reputation by his fellow pros. For example, what regular poster on this forum wil ever forget the merciless pounding of Charlie perpetrated by Grady Matthews in the period leading up to the 2006 World Straight Pool Championships, a character assassination that was a disgrace to this forum.
I feel fortunate and privileged to know Charlie. I like him very much and believe in him. I believe he cares deeply about our sport and its future, and that he is an extremely positive influence in our sport. Brunswick Billiards, which had not had a male player representative for over a decade, signed Charlie last year, proof positive that they, too, view him as a very credible ambassador for our game.
Still, other than those that have taken tasteless exception to him, I cannot find fault with those of you that view Charlie less favorably than I do. You have your reasons. I predict, however, that if you keep an open mind, time will help you to recognize just how much Charlie means to our sport.
I've already had my say, and as I've noted, I see Charlie as a great visionary and presence in our sport. But that's just my view, and I recognize that I probably have far greater access to him than most. Other posters have had interactions with Charlie, on which they base their impression of him, and that's appropriate. Those with little or no access have to go on hearsay and on their own impressions of our sport, and that's completely understandable.
Charlie, like every player-promoter before him is a controversial figure. He has been bashed unfairly, and far too often, by his fellow professional players. Unfortunately, far too many of them painted a very negative picture of Charlie as a power-crazed, money-crazed, self-serving kind of guy. Nothing that could ever happen on this forum could undo the damage done to Charlie's reputation by his fellow pros. For example, what regular poster on this forum wil ever forget the merciless pounding of Charlie perpetrated by Grady Matthews in the period leading up to the 2006 World Straight Pool Championships, a character assassination that was a disgrace to this forum.
I feel fortunate and privileged to know Charlie. I like him very much and believe in him. I believe he cares deeply about our sport and its future, and that he is an extremely positive influence in our sport. Brunswick Billiards, which had not had a male player representative for over a decade, signed Charlie last year, proof positive that they, too, view him as a very credible ambassador for our game.
Still, other than those that have taken tasteless exception to him, I cannot find fault with those of you that view Charlie less favorably than I do. You have your reasons. I predict, however, that if you keep an open mind, time will help you to recognize just how much Charlie means to our sport.
I do know whats going on, not being able to run 2 balls in a row?? whats that mean? Probably the most intelligent people in the world can't run 2 in a row. Anyhoooooooo; I worked with him, at a venue, made him money over 3-4 days, got paid, went to lunch ate with him, sat in his car there and back, next time I saw him he never said HI and I did see him three or four times over a couple days at that tournament. Maybe if I played like I did in my younger years he would of seen me??????? When I run into Varner, Rempe, Earl, Buddy, Fleming, Miz, Hopkins, Souquet especially, even across the room he sees you, or any of the earlier PBT players they all notice me and said HI and usually stop and chat. I know we all need to grow, we all make mistakes, but I would never tolerate these actions with my children, I would jump right in their face if this was the way they treated others. He's a hard worker, done allot for the sport, I am not questioning that at all, but when I become invisible like he does not know me, I got a problem with those actions.thorstenhohmann said:
sjm said:
Gee, I am surprised that we have not seen several posts by first time posters asking their opinion of Brunswick.
Or, did I miss them?
Oh well, who really cares about Charlie? Just another pool player trying to eke out a living. We watch them play, wish we could play half as well, then go home and forget them and get back to our own problems.
Jake