Comments on Willie Moscont

Many people still have their beliefs, and will not be convinced other wised.
I think I was making a sarcastic point that Willie Mosconi made his record without the benefit of modern equipment, except for pre-flag. :D

literally the same stuff as the new

also they still make it without flags
 
Absolutely!
Jayson Shaw, Appleton, or one of their running mates would be long gone with that money.
I wish someone would post only $10,000...that would get those hungry wolves out for some fresh blood.
I'd bet a little of my own money that one of them would, under the stated conditions, bust that record run in 45 days or less.
Keep on truckin'
:thumbup:

As I recall, $20,000 was posted for a 527 at one of the 14.1 high run competitions. The table was a Diamond 9-foot and the competition lasted for only a few days. I'm pretty sure no one broke 200 and maybe not 150.

The conditions under which the record was set will not be duplicated. It was a scheduled exhibition with an audience. Shooting on your home table with a camera recording is not the same thing.

As mentioned above, Mosconi often did multiple 14.1 exhibitions in a day. I can't see that sort of exhibition schedule happening today and if it did I doubt that many spectators would be present after the first hour of the run.

I've heard that usually Mosconi's run would stop at a score of 150, although if he had not run 100 in the game yet, he might continue. We can speculate about how many 400s or 500s we would have seen if he had had the opportunity and an incentive to continue all of his exhibition runs.

As for having an opponent as mentioned above, in the exhibitions Willie's opponents were best thought of as warm cue racks. They were not there to provide competition.

Here is what Mike Shamos had to say about the run 20 years ago:

The following facts can be established through contemporaneous
evidence: On March 19, 1954 at the East High Billiard Club in
Springfield, Ohio, Mosconi played an announced exhibition against Earl
J. Bruney, a local Springfield player. (Usually Mosconi advertised in
advance that he was going to give an exhibition but it was up to the
local room to determine who his opponent would be.) Mosconi beat
Bruney, 200-3, in the exhibition on an 8-foot Brunswick table. The
length of his unfinished run was not recorded, but he was urged to
continue. After approximately two additional hours, he reached 526 and
missed a shot. It is also not recorded what type of shot he missed on,
and recollections of various people are contradictory on this point.
At least 36 people were present at the end of the run, since they
signed a statement attesting to the run on the stationery of the East
High Billiard Club. The Billiard Archive has a copy of this document.
It is signed by, among 35 others, "Earl J. Bruney (opponent)". Howard
Barrett did not sign it. This does not mean he wasn't there, just that
he may have had his reasons for not signing.
While Barrett says in the current Pool & Billiard Magazine that
Mosconi ended his regulation game with a run of only 33, I consider it
unlikely (but not impossible) in view of the fact that Bruney only
scored 3 points. Mosconi always promised the room owner that he would
run 100 in an exhibition. If he did not run 100 on his way to a total
of 200, and his last run was 33, he must have taken at least three
innings and probably more. That means Bruney would have had at least
two chances to shoot and we would expect him to score more than 3
points. It is more likely that Mosconi broke for Bruney, Bruney ran 3
and then Mosconi ran 200. He felt in the zone, and so was persuaded to
continue to try to break his previous record of 365, which he set in
Wilmongton, NC in 1953. (This paragraph is just speculation.)
The New York Times reported the story on March 21, 1954. The BCA
recognized the run as an exhibition high run several days after it
occurred. The requirement for exhibition high runs back then was that
the run must have occurred in an announced exhibition on a table
satisfying BCA specifications and been witnessed. The reason for
requiring announcement in advance is so the public, and especially the
press, are notified and have a chance to attend. If the exhibition is
not announced, but is made known only to close friends of the player,
you can imagine that all sorts of questionable records would be
claimed. There is no category of BCA record for practice runs, since
these do not occur in a competitive situation and are usually not
witnessed. There are several stories of practice runs in the 700s.
Whether or not they occurred, they are not records.
Later in his life, Mosconi, apparently too proud to admit that he
ever missed a shot (admittedly a rare event), started telling people
that he just got tired and put his cue down, and so it is written in
his (auto)biography, "Willie's Game." But it's just not true.
Much has been made of the fact that the run of 526 was made on an
8-foot table. However, I have never seen a convincing argument that
such a run is easier on an 8-foot table than on a 9-footer. While the
shots are shorter on a smaller table, the chance of the balls getting
tied up is greater, particularly right after a break shot. There is no
question that such a run is easier on an 8 or 9-foot table than on a
10-foot table. (Straight pool high run on a 10-foot table: 309.
Amazingly, this record was set by Crane and TIED by Mosconi.)
The story surrounding Mike Eufemia's claimed run of 625 is very
complicated. The upshot is that it is not recognized by the BCA
because it did not meet the standards for an exhibition high run
record.
Mike Shamos
Chairperson, BCA Statistics and Records Committee
 
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What made him great was he was a perfectionist who had little tolerance for "stuff".

Regarding gambling - did he have a clause in his contract with Brunswick preventing him from gambling? I can't imagine Mosconi turning down a 1,000 ball challenge from Grady.
 
...
Here is what Mike Shamos had to say about the run 20 years ago:

... Later in his life, Mosconi, apparently too proud to admit that he
ever missed a shot (admittedly a rare event), started telling people
that he just got tired and put his cue down, and so it is written in
his (auto)biography, "Willie's Game." ...

No. The autobiography says: "I finally missed a difficult cut shot, but by that time I was weary; it was almost a relief to have it come to an end."
 
I loved Grady, and knew him pretty well for 40 years. Grady started doing exhibitions because I convinced him that it was a viable way to make a steady income from pool. I observed many of his exibitions (including some where he either ran, or tried to run 100). He was a great pool player. That said, like was mentioned earlier, nobody can just step up and run 100+ balls at will, on demand, under pressure, in one try...like Mosconi did, day after day, for years! Grady would stand ZERO chance of beating Mosconi in a 1000 point 14.1 match. One pocket would be a different story! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

What made him great was he was a perfectionist who had little tolerance for "stuff".

Regarding gambling - did he have a clause in his contract with Brunswick preventing him from gambling? I can't imagine Mosconi turning down a 1,000 ball challenge from Grady.
 
:rotflmao1: :rotflmao1: :rotflmao1: Sure! LOL...especially since all of those guys (and almost everybody else) WERE hustlers and gamblers...character traits that Mosconi publicly despised. Respect? Not likely. More likely that they just didn't give a sh!t because no $$$ was involved...pretty much the same reason as today.

Like somebody else said...put a bounty on it of at least $100K, with a limited time frame. It would have to be in one place, and live streamed with a referee to prevent cheating. You could make bets on a particular player breaking the record. I would make it so that every player who coughed up the entry fee got 1-3 chances to break the record...just like they do at the DCC. Even then, I doubt that the record would even be equaled, let alone broken...but it would sure be fun to watch them try! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Any chance that the Sigel, Rempe, Varner generation didn't go after it out of respect for Mosconi?
 
I loved Grady, and knew him pretty well for 40 years. Grady started doing exhibitions because I convinced him that it was a viable way to make a steady income from pool. I observed many of his exibitions (including some where he either ran, or tried to run 100). He was a great pool player. That said, like was mentioned earlier, nobody can just step up and run 100+ balls at will, on demand, under pressure, in one try...like Mosconi did, day after day, for years! Grady would stand ZERO chance of beating Mosconi in a 1000 point 14.1 match. One pocket would be a different story! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Great Post Scott. Then, they argue how anyone can win more than a dozen World Championships. And Willie did it when pool was a big time game and 1000's of pool rooms, and international interest, and some stone cold killers playing the game. I won't hold my breath ;)
 
I have a friend that told me the same thing.
He had seen Mosconi spotting really good players the 5 ball in 9 ball.
What did you think of Joe Procita?
Almost no one knows who he was, yet about 5 years he came in second to Mosconi as world champion.
I was told Procita also gambled .

I knew Joe Procita from the Johnson City days. He was really a straight pol player but he played all games well.

I think he had the official record for straight on a 5x10. 150 and out.

He did gamble some but like most of the straight players did not bet high.

Nice guy.

Bill S.
 
In 1964 I was 17 years old and played Mosconi an exhibition game at a new pool room in Toms River N.J.
Of course i was just there as the opponent to be soundly beaten and i did not disappoint.
The start of the game I made some balls ,he made some balls then we traded safes and he ran 85 perfect balls and out.
He turned in a world class performance as a pool player.
I turned in a world class performance as a rack boy.
Willie was well groomed and wore a suit.
He was a perfect gentleman to me and the crowd.
What ever else he may be criticized for ,that day he was the perfect performer.
 
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I knew Joe Procita from the Johnson City days. He was really a straight pol player but he played all games well.

I think he had the official record for straight on a 5x10. 150 and out.

He did gamble some but like most of the straight players did not bet high.

Nice guy.

Bill S.

Not sure what you mean as the official record for straight on a 5x10 150 and out.
150 is not the high run on a 5x10.
Both Mosconi and Crane ran 309
Greenleaf 289.
 
Really? Ease of recording is era specific. You might as well ask for video of Mingaud.

Back in the day there was no video, TV was just coming in with big bulky cameras; occasionally there'd be some film shot for a newsreel or a short, but that even that wasn't done much. That's why we have so little footage of guys like Mosconi, Greenleaf, Crane, Caras, Procita, et al in action. Even later we still don't have much of Lassiter, Danny Jones, Joe Balsis, Weenie Beanie, Cowboy Jimmy Moore and the rest.

Nowadays everyone carries still and video in their back pocket.

Lou Figueroa

Lou,

You are correct.

I had the privilege of knowing all the players you listed (Mosconi, Greenleaf, Crane, Caras, Procita, Lassiter, Danny Jones, Joe Balsis, Weenie Beanie, Cowboy Jimmy Moore and the rest. Except Greenleaf.

I gambled with Lassiter, Danny Jones, Joe Balsis, Weenie Beanie, and many others from that era. You left out Clem, Cotton, Earl H., Taylor, and a large number of really great players. Not to mention Fatty.

It was a Golden Era to be a pool player and just travel the US and find a game wherever you stopped. What a way to make a good living.

I remember in 1958 during the summer before going back to high school my sister asked me when I was going to get a summer job. I didn't say anything and just reached into my jeans pocket to make sure the $5000.00 I had made so far that summer from playing pool was still there. It was.

Bill S.
 
Not sure what you mean as the official record for straight on a 5x10 150 and out.
150 is not the high run on a 5x10.
Both Mosconi and Crane ran 309
Greenleaf 289.

Lasttime I looked in the record book it was Procita but that was a long time ago.
Perhaps there are newer records.

One thing we do agree on is the Russian chalk. It is great.

Bill S.
 
The Mosconi I met twice was nothing but a snob both times.

PS: 3 chances are not enough for someone to break the 14.1 record. How many did Mosconi get to do it? A few 1000? Johnnyt
 
Well they have that competition at the DCC, and it seems to me that most of them dont even break 100, let alone 526.

Again, I say, it can be done but its no cake walk.

No disrespect to either player, but wasnt John Schmidt and Danny Harriman the top 14.1 players at one time?

I think John was called Mr. 400. Im old, maybe I got this wrong too.

Ken
 
Grady had a point..,

I loved Grady, and knew him pretty well for 40 years. Grady started doing exhibitions because I convinced him that it was a viable way to make a steady income from pool. I observed many of his exibitions (including some where he either ran, or tried to run 100). He was a great pool player. That said, like was mentioned earlier, nobody can just step up and run 100+ balls at will, on demand, under pressure, in one try...like Mosconi did, day after day, for years! Grady would stand ZERO chance of beating Mosconi in a 1000 point 14.1 match. One pocket would be a different story! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Grady's point was that Willie didn't take on all comers and that he didn't put his own Money up and that he didn't play the hustlers that he should have played. I spoke with Grady about this on a few occasions.

Grady Loved and Respected Gamblers as well as the game, Willie was no Gambler
 
Grady's point was that Willie didn't take on all comers and that he didn't put his own Money up and that he didn't play the hustlers that he should have played. I spoke with Grady about this on a few occasions.

Grady Loved and Respected Gamblers as well as the game, Willie was no Gambler

True, but Grady's attitude was that if one of you didn't go broke you weren't gambling.
 
I can assure you that Mosconi's titles are all real.
I have thorough documentation of every one, including the participants and their scores.

Unless I am mistaken, I don't believe anyone alive or dead has as many world titles in pool.

Mike Sigel is pushing the idea that Mosconi was given the title in years when they didn't even play...nonsense.
 
The Mosconi I met twice was nothing but a snob both times.

PS: 3 chances are not enough for someone to break the 14.1 record. How many did Mosconi get to do it? A few 1000? Johnnyt

You are assuming he ran balls in exhibition until he missed. That didn't happen. He would run 100 or 150 and then just stop playing. Why on earth would he try to run more when he had another event to go to? On this one occasion, he gave it a shot just for sh!its and giggles and managed 526. You never hear stories of Mosconi running 294 balls in exhibition and missing, or 396 balls and missing, do you? It's not like he was attempting runs like this every day.

If someone came to him and offered $100,000 for every run he could make over 1000 balls, he might well have died a very rich man.
 
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