Congratulations Topeka APA National Champions

FL9ballboy said:
congrats on your win, but not to take anything away from your players but if i know APA im sure your 2's and 3's can run racks but yet you play like that in florida they make you a 6 or a 7. thats why a team from Florida has never won the national title cause its not a level playing field in Vegas. anyone else agree with this?
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Waldo's finished 2nd in 1999 almost won it all!

Uncle Waldo's Billiards 1999 Runner up

http://www.unclewaldosbilliards.com/images/apa.gif
 
rossaroni...Actually, my response was intended to be very sarcastic. I do believe that it's possible to play straight up APA, and win a national tournament. I'd like to believe that the Topeka team did just that...although the naysayers will say it's impossible. That was the whole point of my "sarcasm".

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

rossaroni said:
Isn't Scott kind of saying that you have to sandbag to win out there? I think he is saying that it would be tough to get an honest handicaped team and win.

Congrats to the winners...sandbagging or not.:wink:
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rossaroni said:
I think it has to do with the 23 rule and handicaps moving up. Isn't there also a rule about only being able to play 2 or less players rated 6+? It sees like it would be tough to get through a field of 700-800 teams without a couple players being a little lower then they should probably be.
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The 2 senior player (s/l 6 & above ) only applies in 9ball .
In 8ball , any combination totalling 23 is legal , i.e. ,
7-6-6-2-2
6-6-6-3-2
 
Scott Lee said:
rossaroni...Actually, my response was intended to be very sarcastic. I do believe that it's possible to play straight up APA, and win a national tournament. I'd like to believe that the Topeka team did just that...although the naysayers will say it's impossible. That was the whole point of my "sarcasm".

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Sorry about that. I forgot that you used to run an APA league, if I remember correctly.

With a tournment that is so strongly handicapped, I can see how people would think that you would have to sandbag to win. If the sandbagging is as bad as people say, it just seems hard to compete against them with a straight up team. After all, you do have to play less rated players every match. Don't they go up if they win a lot?

It seems like it may be easier to be legit(and win) in 9 ball. It is based on points, and the higher rated players could just torture their opponents and score a lot more points then the lesser players win or lose by.
 
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Scott Lee said:
rossaroni...Actually, my response was intended to be very sarcastic. I do believe that it's possible to play straight up APA, and win a national tournament. I'd like to believe that the Topeka team did just that...although the naysayers will say it's impossible. That was the whole point of my "sarcasm".

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

So here is the scoop on this team. And Scott, I do know this team personally. I personally think that most teams that play APA pool are honest; that includes most teams that earn the trip to nationals, but the 3 Topeka teams that have won their national championships were anything but.
The team that won in 2004 were DQ'ed the following fall for handicap manipulation. Three of those players were on this years team after coming off their 2 year suspension. Go to the APA national championship archives and look at the team names for 2004 and 2010.

This years team recruited a regional shotstop from the KC area (easily a sl7) and had him playing as a sl3. The league operator caught wind of this player and raised him to a sl6 for the LTC in June. He played and helped them win the LTC and a trip to vegas. The national office wanted to DQ the team but the LO talked them out of it saying they had won the qualifier and had already received part of the travel funds. The deal worked out between the national office and the LO was to ban the shortstop and raise all three of the sl3 players to sl4s. So the team goes to Vegas with a sl7, and 6 - sl4s. Three of the sl4s play in other league fomats and gamble at sl6 speed or higher. Our LO knows this but when asked about it states "thats not what the computer says." So at the national tournament all three of the underhandicapped sl4's are raised to sl 5's. So in essence everyone on the team that played at Vegas, except the sl7 went up in sl and the team didn't get DQed. You can blame the LO for looking the otherway on some of this, but how can you not place some of the blame on the national office for this example of a cheating team winning a championship.

So to summarize, you have three members coming off suspension for cheating, one case of obvious handcap manipulation ( the whole team playing a part in this subterfuge), and six players whose handicaps were raised.

Since 2003, Topeka APA teams have had remarkable success in the APA 8-ball team championships.
2003 - 3rd
2004 - 1st
2006 - 1st
2007 - 17th
2008 - 5th
2009 - 9th & 65th
2010 - 1st & 65th

Scott this post is not trying to bash you and your support of the APA. It's my attempt to get the LO and the national office to do something so that local players and teams that play with integrity have a fair opportunity to win a trip to play in the national championships. I have had many conversations with the LO written complaint reports to both the LO and the national office that never receive responses to. The comments I hear from the LO are oft repeated ones: "did you consider they were having an off night when you played them?" "thats not what the computer says!"
 
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CONGRATULATIONS , TOPEKA !:grin-devilish::grin-devilish::grin-devilish:
You have shown a mastery of the APA system! May we all learn by your example !
 
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Looks like tho 04, 2010 had one common player - brian ramirez. There is another ramirez on both teams but a different first name. Need more info from you please.
Duane Hinton said:
So here is the scoop on this team. And Scott, I do know this team personally. I personally think that most teams that play APA pool are honest; that includes most teams that earn the trip to nationals, but the 3 Topeka teams that have won their national championships were anything but.
The team that won in 2004 were DQ'ed the following fall for handicap manipulation. Three of those players were on this years team after coming off their 2 year suspension. Go to the APA national championship archives and look at the team names for 2004 and 2010.

This years team recruited a regional shotstop from the KC area (easily a sl7) and had him playing as a sl3. The league operator caught wind of this player and raised him to a sl6 for the LTC in June. He played and helped them win the LTC and a trip to vegas. The national office wanted to DQ the team but the LO talked them out of it saying they had won the qualifier and had already received part of the travel funds. The deal worked out between the national office and the LO was to ban the shortstop and raise all three of the sl3 players to sl4s. So the team goes to Vegas with a sl7, and 6 - sl4s. Three of the sl4s play in other league fomats and gamble at sl6 speed or higher. Our LO knows this but when asked about it states "thats not what the computer says." So at the national tournament all three of the underhandicapped sl4's are raised to sl 5's. So in essence everyone on the team that played at Vegas, except the sl7 went up in sl and the team didn't get DQed. You can blame the LO for looking the otherway on some of this, but how can you not place some of the blame on the national office for this example of a cheating team winning a championship.

So to summarize, you have three members coming off suspension for cheating, one case of obvious handcap manipulation ( the whole team playing a part in this subterfuge), and six players whose handicaps were raised.

Since 2003, Topeka APA teams have had remarkable success in the APA 8-ball team championships.
2003 - 3rd
2004 - 1st
2006 - 1st
2007 - 17th
2008 - 5th
2009 - 9th & 65th
2010 - 1st & 65th

Scott this post is not trying to bash you and your support of the APA. It's my attempt to get the LO and the national office to do something so that local players and teams that play with integrity have a fair opportunity to win a trip to play in the national championships. I have had many conversations with the LO written complaint reports to both the LO and the national office that never receive responses to. The comments I hear from the LO are oft repeated ones: "did you consider they were having an off night when you played them?" "thats not what the computer says!"
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cookie man said:
Looks like tho 04, 2010 had one common player - brian ramirez. There is another ramirez on both teams but a different first name. Need more info from you please.
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looking at photos of the two teams , I concur - it appears to be only 1 player commonality between championship teams .
However , I believe he is speaking of commonality between the DQ'd team and the 2010 champions , and I've never been able to find much info on ANY of the DQ'd teams anywhere .
 
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cookie man said:
Looks like tho 04, 2010 had one common player - brian ramirez. There is another ramirez on both teams but a different first name. Need more info from you please.
Click to expand...

The 2004 team had 2 players retire and they picked up the two that were also on this years team for the fall session. It was the fall team that were suspended for 2 years. The two Ramirez's are brothers, but I won't name names on this forum. The people that need to fix these problems know their names.

For those that might be wondering why I posted this on the forums: I did not play in the Topeka APA last year and I will not play in the Topeka APA until the cheating is dealt with. My Topeka team is playing BCA this fall after playing in an in-house league last year. So not a poor loser here. I just want a fair opportunity for all APA players in the Topeka area to earn a trip to nationals. I do play APA pool in the Lawrence area, where I believe that most of the teams play with integrity and by the rules. My wife and I played both fall and spring in Lawrence last year with both of us going up one sl each. The LO didn't hear any complaining from us about improving. I won 80% of my matches last year; how can I complain about moving up? My wife won one of her matches 2-0 with 4 innings and another match 2-1 in 8 innings; how can she complain about movingup? We just want the cheating environment in Topeka to be dealt with by the APA.
 
cookie man said:
Looks like tho 04, 2010 had one common player - brian ramirez. There is another ramirez on both teams but a different first name. Need more info from you please.
Click to expand...

The 2004 team had 2 players retire and they picked up the two that were also on this years team for the fall session. It was the fall team that were suspended for 2 years. The two Ramirez's are brothers, but I won't name names on this forum. The people that need to fix these problems know their names.

For those that might be wondering why I posted this on the forums: I did not play in the Topeka APA last year and I will not play in the Topeka APA until the cheating is dealt with. My Topeka team is playing BCA this fall after playing in an in-house league last year. So not a poor loser here. I just want a fair opportunity for all APA players in the Topeka area to earn a trip to nationals. I do play APA pool in the Lawrence area, where I believe that most of the teams play with integrity and by the rules. My wife and I played both fall and spring in Lawrence last year with both of us going up one sl each. The LO didn't hear any complaining from us about improving. I won 80% of my matches last year; how can I complain about moving up? My wife won one of her matches 2-0 with 4 innings and another match 2-1 in 8 innings; how can she complain about movingup? We just want the cheating environment in Topeka to be dealt with by the APA.
 
I'm not at all familiar with the team from Topeka, but our team did lose to their finals' opponents Bad Element from N.C. in the round of 32...

Bad Element was, in my opinion, a well-contstructed and honest team...

They had an excellent 7, a very strong 5 and other players who played within themselves and didn't rattle easily...

I know it happens all over the place, but I personally didn't play against any teams that I felt were sandbagging...

I'm an SL7 and I am very confident that I would recognize sandbagging...

Both of our losses were to solid, experienced teams...

The APA is what it is...

I had a great time and I hope to do it again next year...
 
Congratulations

Congratulations from Rackem Magazine
Chumba's All Stars APA National Champions
The team made the front cover of Rackem
You can read more at http://www.rackemmag.com

RackemSep10Sm.jpg
 
Congrats' for Nat'l. APA win ???

I agree.... that probably some of the same players were among the winners of all 3 National Championship teams!


FL9ballboy said:
congrats on your win, but not to take anything away from your players but if i know APA im sure your 2's and 3's can run racks but yet you play like that in florida they make you a 6 or a 7. thats why a team from Florida has never won the national title cause its not a level playing field in Vegas. anyone else agree with this?
Click to expand...
 
Duane Hinton...I suspected as much, although it doesn't make me happy to hear it. From your description of his/her action, the LO is definitely one of the "bad apple" league operators that I've railed against in the past. I used to be good friends with the franchise owner in your area, but I'm sure it's not the same guy these days. That's very weird about all those players being raised at the national tournament. When I was an LO, if a team had that many players raised, it was an automatic DQ. It appears things are different these days, and that's not good. What's incredibly disheartening is that the national office let this team even play, having prior "known" cheaters on it. Leopards don't change their spots...once a cheater, always a cheater, imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Duane Hinton said:
So here is the scoop on this team. And Scott, I do know this team personally. I personally think that most teams that play APA pool are honest; that includes most teams that earn the trip to nationals, but the 3 Topeka teams that have won their national championships were anything but.
The team that won in 2004 were DQ'ed the following fall for handicap manipulation. Three of those players were on this years team after coming off their 2 year suspension. Go to the APA national championship archives and look at the team names for 2004 and 2010.

This years team recruited a regional shotstop from the KC area (easily a sl7) and had him playing as a sl3. The league operator caught wind of this player and raised him to a sl6 for the LTC in June. He played and helped them win the LTC and a trip to vegas. The national office wanted to DQ the team but the LO talked them out of it saying they had won the qualifier and had already received part of the travel funds. The deal worked out between the national office and the LO was to ban the shortstop and raise all three of the sl3 players to sl4s. So the team goes to Vegas with a sl7, and 6 - sl4s. Three of the sl4s play in other league fomats and gamble at sl6 speed or higher. Our LO knows this but when asked about it states "thats not what the computer says." So at the national tournament all three of the underhandicapped sl4's are raised to sl 5's. So in essence everyone on the team that played at Vegas, except the sl7 went up in sl and the team didn't get DQed. You can blame the LO for looking the otherway on some of this, but how can you not place some of the blame on the national office for this example of a cheating team winning a championship.

So to summarize, you have three members coming off suspension for cheating, one case of obvious handcap manipulation ( the whole team playing a part in this subterfuge), and six players whose handicaps were raised.

Since 2003, Topeka APA teams have had remarkable success in the APA 8-ball team championships.
2003 - 3rd
2004 - 1st
2006 - 1st
2007 - 17th
2008 - 5th
2009 - 9th & 65th
2010 - 1st & 65th

Scott this post is not trying to bash you and your support of the APA. It's my attempt to get the LO and the national office to do something so that local players and teams that play with integrity have a fair opportunity to win a trip to play in the national championships. I have had many conversations with the LO written complaint reports to both the LO and the national office that never receive responses to. The comments I hear from the LO are oft repeated ones: "did you consider they were having an off night when you played them?" "thats not what the computer says!"
Click to expand...
 
Hey Duane... thanks for the information. VERY good to know. Our team actually played this team in Vegas last week, and they are OBVIOUSLY loaded. Their 7 speed shoots lights out, which is expected, but their 4 speeds are not true 4's, and slaughtered our (very good) S/L 6 with no problem. I agree with you, it sucks for all the other APA teams. And if the LO knows about this and has done nothing, then they are obviously failing the league, or have a vested interest in seeing this team advance. You should forward this entire forum to them. HA HA
 
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"... You should forward this entire forum to them. HA HA "

Trust me. This thread has been brought to the attention of the folks in Lake St Louis.
 
TCIndepMo said:
"... You should forward this entire forum to them. HA HA "

Trust me. This thread has been brought to the attention of the folks in Lake St Louis.
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I wrote the national office an official complaint. The automated email they returned stated that it was received and that I would be contacted within 1 - 2 business days. When that didn't happen I chose to post it publically on the forum. Having done so, I don't expect to ever haer from the national office. I've come to realize that this organization likes to operate under a cloak of secrecy. It's bad PR to admit they let a cheating team win the national championship.
 
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