Cowboy Jimmy Moore - Obviously Using Center to Edge

[SpiderWebComm]

Speaking of Jimmy Moore.
In this series of ABC videos on you tube where he is playing Irving Crane.
They have several parts where they have an overhead camera angle.

So far, i have yet to see an overhead camera shot of Moore shooting a ball where he is doing any pivoting.

At 3:35 of this video, he is shooting a ball in the side, and he doesn't pivot at all. He is aiming at the middle of the cue ball.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Foa-lVwnfv0&feature=related

In this part of the series, also at 3:35, they have an overhead of his shooting another ball in the side, and he is again aiming at the center of the cue ball.
Also at 4:20, he is shooting a combo and again, when they cut to him, he is aiming center. When he is drawing the stick back to shoot, it gets a little wobbly but i would attribute that to his slip stroke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68gzu7P_4sg&feature=related

And in the next section of the video, at 55 seconds, they have an overhead where he is lining up a combo again, and when they cut to him before he is stroking the shot, he is again aiming like he is using a half tip of left, and he lets the cue go through that line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIUQb7VrLPs&NR=1

At no point in this series of videos, in any of the overhead shots that they have of Cowboy Jimmy Moore, does he demonstrate any type of pivot like people are claiming to CLEARLY see.

I don't know if that ESPN classic match has an overhead camera, but after looking at this series of videos WITH it's overhead camera angle, i'd be willing to bet that you would see exactly the same thing. A guy aiming at the center of the ball, and following through that line when he strokes.

As a matter of fact, i'd be willing to bet that that ESPN classic video DOES NOT have an overhead camera angle, cause if it did, and they showed clear pivots on all Jimmy Moore's shots, that would be the ultimate proof, and someone would surely have posted that info already.

So far, no one has.

No one posted it because it's not on the web (I looked). Don't get too matter-of-fact because I wouldn't invest the time into encoding that match if it was wishy-washy. It soooo clear, it made me re-think a lot of aspects about this technique. Hold your horses and don't pick a fight until you view the video. I just need a few days. Stand by.

 

[Nostroke]

Very true, Superstar.

Jimmy, however, aligns his cue just off the edge of the cue ball and practice strokes from there (as if that were center). He strokes to lock in the position and then immediately goes to center. It's exactly how I play, except I don't pivot to center DURING my final stroke (amaaazing). I'm going to illegally record a few segments of that match and edit it down to his setup and CB strike for everyone to check out.

I spend my pool life basically trying to master this exact same move (so suffice it to say, I know it when I see it). The "hmmmm" moment that stuck me funny was the telecast was from 1981, and Jimmy was well beyond his prime at this time. That means (to me).... how OLD is this technique really?? To us on AZB, it's a new technique that many are getting tired of reading about; however, we might have only re-discovered something that has been around forever.

I'm not saying it's not Hal's info at all. It might very well be. I'm just open to the idea that CTE far precedes him (Ralph???).

U sure that is 1981? Looks at least 15 years older to me. It's not even color and everyone was broadcasting in color by 1970 iirc.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Very true, Superstar.

Jimmy, however, aligns his cue just off the edge of the cue ball and practice strokes from there (as if that were center). He strokes to lock in the position and then immediately goes to center.

Are you sure about this?
Please see the above videos.

As for Ralph Greenleaf, who knows what the man knew, and who he may have told.
But as far as Jimmy Moore using CTE, after watching the above videos, i will choose to be a skeptic in regards to J.M clearly pivoting.

If you can get a link to a classic video where they show the overhead perspective like shown in the ones i linked, that would go a long way to convincing people.
But from my perspective after watching the whole series, i didn't see one pivot at all when he shot.
I saw his cue wobble on the pre final shot slip stroke, where he is drawing the cue back before final delivery, but there were no pivots.

Maybe you can point out some situations in the above videos where i can see what you are saying, and see if i agree or disagree with you on it being a pivot from aiming to the edge of the ball back to center.
Because as far as i am concerned, the overhead shots are where the truth lies.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

No one posted it because it's not on the web (I looked). Don't get too matter-of-fact because I wouldn't invest the time into encoding that match if it was wishy-washy. It soooo clear, it made me re-think a lot of aspects about this technique. Hold your horses and don't pick a fight until you view the video. I just need a few days. Stand by.

LOL.
I think this is a generalized misconception on a lot of people's parts.

I am not picking a fight.
I am not even being hostile.

I think people just assume that i am being hostile, because i have been hostile in the past.
But actually, that is the furthest thing from my mind.

If you can post it up, i'll gladly wait to see if i agree or not.

But, even before you do post that up, do you have any comments on the overhead shots i pointed out in the series of videos?
I don't see a pivot in any of them.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

LOL.
I think this is a generalized misconception on a lot of people's parts.

I am not picking a fight.
I am not even being hostile.

I think people just assume that i am being hostile, because i have been hostile in the past.
But actually, that is the furthest thing from my mind.

If you can post it up, i'll gladly wait to see if i agree or not.

But, even before you do post that up, do you have any comments on the overhead shots i pointed out in the series of videos?
I don't see a pivot in any of them.

bear with me i'm on my phone. the video i'm referring to is espn classic 1981 vs. lassiter....not the above video. i only clicked on the first link and jm was jacked up over the muck...no one is pivoting with that. the video i'm gonna post is crazy obvious and prob 20 years later.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHtRjbHZU2g

This video stuff takes forever, so I thought I'd post a good one in the meantime.

His tip is nearly off the ball and his final stroke is at center. The video I'm working on -- he pivots all the time, even the breaks.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

A little bump to maybe get a comment or two on the video I posted.

 

[LAMas]

Thanks for the vid.
It looks more like 90/90 aiming to me, which doesn't have the shift. He starts off at the side of the CB and not CTE.

 

[lfigueroa]

A little bump to maybe get a comment or two on the video I posted.

I guess my comment is: with all the bazillion Accu-Stats matches out there (not to mention, still living players) why are you citing a 50 year old Kinescope of a long departed player, who everyone recognizes had an idiosyncratic (slip-stroke) style of play, to support CTE? I mean, who can really know what was going on?

Lou Figueroa
just askin'

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Thanks for the vid.
It looks more like 90/90 aiming to me, which doesn't have the shift. He starts off at the side of the CB and not CTE.

CTE and 90-90 are the same system geometrically. In fact, for that shot--- 90-90 and Pro1 look identical. They're ALL the same system - with the pivots coming in from different sides.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I guess my comment is: with all the bazillion Accu-Stats matches out there (not to mention, still living players) why are you citing a 50 year old Kinescope of a long departed player, who everyone recognizes had an idiosyncratic (slip-stroke) style of play, to support CTE? I mean, who can really know what was going on?

Lou Figueroa
just askin'

You're a smart guy, Lou. Why would a player place his tip at the extreme edge of the CB just to final-stroke towards the center?

I'm not trying to support CTE with this (this isn't even my thread). I watched the video after the original poster made the thread. I think the OP got ridiculed for suggesting Jimmy was using CTE and after review--- it wasn't a retarded comment at all. Who can really know what's going on? Maybe all of us when watching in slo-mo. It is what it is.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHtRjbHZU2g

This video stuff takes forever, so I thought I'd post a good one in the meantime.

His tip is nearly off the ball and his final stroke is at center. The video I'm working on -- he pivots all the time, even the breaks.

See, now this is what i am talking about.
Nice Video.

If the next video you put up truly has him doing it all the time, that would go a long way to backing up the OP's claim.

And that's all anyone really wants. If someone is going to have a claim, then at least try to back it up, instead of just putting it up there, and talking about a video that not everyone has seen or can even access.

Now this leads to the next question.
Is it always from one side, or is it using both edges of the cue ball, depending on the shot going to the left or right, and being thick or thin.
(i don't think an edge aiming system would work from just one side of the ball, but i honestly don't know)
If it is both sides of the ball, then in the next video, obviously, we need to see pivots to both right and left edges of the cue ball on every shot.
And then if we see that, the "edge" proponents will have a better foundation for their assertions regarding this system.

I will await the next video.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

See, now this is what i am tal
king about.
Nice Video.

If the next video you put up truly has him doing it all the time, that would go a long way to backing up the OP's claim.

And that's all anyone really wants. If someone is going to have a claim, then at least try to back it up, instead of just putting it up there, and talking about a video that not everyone has seen or can even access.

Now this leads to the next question.
Is it always from one side, or is it using both edges of the cue ball, depending on the shot going to the left or right, and being thick or thin.
(i don't think an edge aiming system would work from just one side of the ball, but i honestly don't know)
If it is both sides of the ball, then in the next video, obviously, we need to see pivots to both right and left edges of the cue ball on every shot.
And then if we see that, the "edge" proponents will have a better foundation for their assertions regarding this system.

I will await the next video.

It'll be a few more days. This takes a lot of time. I just had a conversation with someone (I hope they read this and post) who connected Jimmy Moore with Greenleaf. Seems like those who float around Greenleaf like to pivot.

 

[peteypooldude]

See, now this is what i am talking about.
Nice Video.

If the next video you put up truly has him doing it all the time, that would go a long way to backing up the OP's claim.

And that's all anyone really wants. If someone is going to have a claim, then at least try to back it up, instead of just putting it up there, and talking about a video that not everyone has seen or can even access.

Now this leads to the next question.
Is it always from one side, or is it using both edges of the cue ball, depending on the shot going to the left or right, and being thick or thin.
(i don't think an edge aiming system would work from just one side of the ball, but i honestly don't know)
If it is both sides of the ball, then in the next video, obviously, we need to see pivots to both right and left edges of the cue ball on every shot.
And then if we see that, the "edge" proponents will have a better foundation for their assertions regarding this system.

I will await the next video.

CTE started out using both edges of the cb according to thickness,it has evolved to setting up on the left side for all shots,one shot for all angles and directions.For a right handed person

 

[Blackjack]

Cowboy Jimmy Moore used an aiming system that he learned from Don Willis who learned it from Ralf Greenleaf.

I was blessed to be able to go up to Albuquerque several times to play and to learn from Cowboy Jimmy Moore.

When I asked Jimmy about the way he lined up all of his shots. He told me it was "pure magic."

My friend Fez (who traveled on the road with Don Willis and Jimmy Moore) called the system "shadowing".

You can call it what you like.

I'll call it CTE.

Cowboy Jimmy Moore was winning tournaments in his 70's and running 100's in his 80's because he knew how to get the balls in the pockets cleanly and consistently by using this system. No other reason.

 

[Big Bad Bern]

Blackjack, are you saying that Don Willis used CTE in some form. I have noticed that Lassiter pivoted on some shots during his legends of pool match with UJ Puckett, I just thought he might be adjusting due to his age and eyesight. I know that Lassiter and Willis ran around together, and if they used some sort of CTE this in my opinion would lend all sorts of credibility to the concept.

I have learned the system but don't use it, but if this is true I will have to go work with it again.

Thanks

Bern

 

[billyjack]

You can call it what you like.

I'll call it CTE.

Agreed.
I've DVR'd a bunch of the ESPN "legends" series from '82 and '83. While there were very few overhead camera shots, Jimmy's pivot couldn't be more obvious.

Bill

 

[Blackjack]

Blackjack, are you saying that Don Willis used CTE in some form.

He must have.

I am basing this information on my personal conversations with Cowboy Jimmy Moore and Fez Kasan (Fez traveled with Moore and Willis and lived here in El Paso for many years).

I have noticed that Lassiter pivoted on some shots during his legends of pool match with UJ Puckett, I just thought he might be adjusting due to his age and eyesight. I know that Lassiter and Willis ran around together, and if they used some sort of CTE this in my opinion would lend all sorts of credibility to the concept.

I have learned the system but don't use it, but if this is true I will have to go work with it again.

Thanks

Bern

I have noticed the pivot with Lassiter as well. It makes sense that Willis shared this information with him also.

According to Fez, Greenleaf was the genius that had "figured it all out - and then he killed everybody with it."

Greenleaf could make any shot - no matter how ridiculous the angle or how impossible that it looked to others.

The conversations that I had with Cowboy Jimmy Moore about 14.1, aiming, alignment, ball speed, etc, occurred between 1988 and 1998. I didn't sit there with a notebook or a tape recorder - so I am going by memory - which isn't perfect, but I do know that there was an aiming system that was passed down from Greenleaf.

I am not completely sure if Moore shared it with Willis, or if Willis shared it with Moore, or how Lassiter was involved in all of that. What I can say confidently is that there was an aiming system and Cowboy Jimmy Moore used it, and it was passed down from Greenleaf.

My conversations with Fez are extensive. I have known Fez since 1983 - and many of the road stories that Fez told me - specifically in regards to Willis and Greenleaf - were told in the presence of Cowboy Jimmy Moore. I would sit there and listen to them for hours going back and forth about their days on the road. There are many people here on the forums that know Fez.

Fez is now 97 years old and in a VA nursing home in New Mexico. The last time I saw him, we talked mostly about New Mexico horse racing. He knew me by name - he told stories, although his memories were chronologically jumbled.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc2Q5lh_VRk

Here's another shot/angle. I promise to get the whole match up soon.

 

[lfigueroa]

You're a smart guy, Lou. Why would a player place his tip at the extreme edge of the CB just to final-stroke towards the center?

I'm not trying to support CTE with this (this isn't even my thread). I watched the video after the original poster made the thread. I think the OP got ridiculed for suggesting Jimmy was using CTE and after review--- it wasn't a retarded comment at all. Who can really know what's going on? Maybe all of us when watching in slo-mo. It is what it is.

oh, COME ON.

Who the frip knows why he did what he did. You are trying to read lamb entrails from 50 years removed. And now he's dead and gone, RIP, and you're trying to ascribe ca-ca, that NO ONE can know about, one way or the other, concerning why he was doing what he was doing, maybe, on some shots. Maybe it was totally unconscious the way he shot.

How about giving us a bunch of videos of the top current champs who can be asked about this stuff?! I mean, why does Cory Duel air pump before each shot?

Why does Allen Hopkins switch hands to chalk before every shot?

Why does Bustamonte go to the bottom of the cue ball on every shot?

Is it because of CTE?! Be serious.

If I posted 100 videos of current guys NOT pivoting -- would that prove anything to you? No, it wouldn't and shouldn't.

Come on -- you're a smart guy too and this is all gas.

Lou Figueroa