Believe it or not you can, especially with combo and safety. The Pivot system works really good...you basically use the object ball that you want to combo as your pocket and/or line for safety.
Regards,
Duc.
Regards,
Duc.
Cowboy Jimmy Moore - Obviously Using Center to Edge
- Thread starter Shark75
- Start date
C'mon, guy, you give sincere CTE'ers - and there are obviously many of them - a bad name. My theory is that you are just having some fun by posting the most outrageous thing you can think of, and then you sit back and laugh at everybody who takes it seriously.
Have some respect for the people who really do believe in and use CTE.
Every time I try CTE it becomes CTETM. Center to edge to miscue. 
Every time I try CTE it becomes CTETM. Center to edge to miscue.
After you go to the edge, pivot back to CB center. It's too hard to stroke off the edge!:grin:
I use it and never even knew until I analyzed my self on tape...but it's funny because I thought I had a flaw in my stroke until I noticed Jimmy Moore doing it on one of his matches I watched a long time ago so I never tried to change.
A lot of them had stroke-slip or slip-stroke.
Hey Joey-which does Wayne use?
From a similar era, So Cal's Wayne Norcross has a pretty stroke-for 14.1 and 9ball-would you agree?
Which of the two stroke styles is his? Would you explain the differences and similarities so we might better appreciate their merits and /or shortcomings.
Thanks
From a similar era, So Cal's Wayne Norcross has a pretty stroke-for 14.1 and 9ball-would you agree?
Which of the two stroke styles is his? Would you explain the differences and similarities so we might better appreciate their merits and /or shortcomings.
Thanks
because Hal claims he taught everyone???
He probably guessed it because Hal claims he taught CTE to every top player even when the players specifically say that they don't use CTE. lol.
Jaden
He probably guessed it because Hal claims he taught CTE to every top player even when the players specifically say that they don't use CTE. lol.
Jaden
So lets see.
Hal lied to pump up his product.
Sorry, but if someone is going to attribute every great players skill to their own product when it is not true...
Snake oil anyone?
Calling CTE snake oil is naive. To the contrary, the knowledge is quite ingenious. You're gonna look like the guys who cried that the world was flat when the info is published.
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IMHO, "Product" implies something that's for sale or being sold. To my knowledge, Hal Houle has never charged anyone even so much as ONE RED CENT to share what he knows. So, if it's beneficial to some, whether it is to you or not, then I really don't understand your problem with Hal Houle or CTE.. If it's because you're tired of hearing about CTE, then IGNORE the posts about it. I hope you don't feel like you're saving the young players of the world by warning them about the evils of CTE or any other system. We have enough "Murphy's" in the world, and I don't need saving... nor do many of the players/posters on the forums.
If Hal was selling this package for a few hundred bucks, I could see where a lot of people would take issue with him, but, again I reiterate, Hal has never charged ANYONE for sharing his knowledge and his stories. NO money, NO product, just a concept, an idea... a "system" if you wish.
So, if Hal is selling "Snake Oil" then are you not doing the same thing, trying to sell the idea that CTE is a farce and that YOUR way is the only way? Snake Oil is, it seems, anything that is NOT what you think is THE way...
I'm not jumping up your a$$ on this, I just need to understand why you have so much of a problem with someone learning a new way to pocket balls when you don't agree with it's validity.
I am what you might consider a CTE "Disciple" or a "Houlian" or whatever you want to call me. Years ago, Hal told me that CTE would make any shot go in any pocket. Well, I personally have found that NOTHING IS PERFECT, but it's damn close. I use it a LOT if I'm having trouble with a shot. Couldn't honestly tell you what I do when I'm shooting. I just go into a "place" when I'm in competition. Wanna call that shooting by "feel", go ahead. It doesn't really matter if I'm using CTE or Ghost Ball or HAMB or if I'm just plain Lucky, what matters is that the ball quits rolling because it's hitting the bottom of the pocket.
Bob
Funny you mentioned Wayne, he sparred with Mosconi a few times. Wayne also played in the world straight pool in Stardust.
Wayne has a slip stroke. Holds the cue forward during practice stroke then pulls the grip hand back on the last stroke.
Wayne swears they all used ghostball then.
Wayne who is from PA originally copied Mosconi's stroke.
Wayne still runs 100+.
Stroke slip is just letting the cue slide after contact like Efren.
Wayne paid me the greatest compliment I've ever received...
years ago after playing in a tourney at Danny K's, a bunch of us were playing hickey pool and someone left me way up table with a ball at the opposite end about six inches out of the pocket. I shot the ball into the pocket and drew the ball all the way back down table to rest against the rail.
I look up to see Wayne look at where the cueball landed and then back up at me and say "If I had a stroke like that, I'd frame it".
I had to just laugh, but I'll never forget that comment...
Jaden
years ago after playing in a tourney at Danny K's, a bunch of us were playing hickey pool and someone left me way up table with a ball at the opposite end about six inches out of the pocket. I shot the ball into the pocket and drew the ball all the way back down table to rest against the rail.
I look up to see Wayne look at where the cueball landed and then back up at me and say "If I had a stroke like that, I'd frame it".
I had to just laugh, but I'll never forget that comment...
Jaden
Slip stroke -- The grip hand slips back on the butt just prior to the forward stroke at the cue ball.
Stroke slip -- As the forward stroke at the cue ball is executed, the cue slips through the grip hand to some degree (a "throw").
I just saw this match last night. If anyone is interested in pivoting, this is a must-see. Regardless if "CTE" was a known-term back then (early 80's when the telecast was made), Jimmy clearly sets his tip on the edge of the CB and pivots to center on his last stroke. I have NO idea how the hell he does that. The amount of hand coordination that takes is super-human, imo.
Anyways, before flaming me to death for bumping this thread - I hope those interested will seek out that match. If I didn't think it was important, I wouldn't have bumped the thread.
Nothing to "look" for, btw. He does it on 95% of the shots on the video. It's blatant - can't miss it.
Anyways, before flaming me to death for bumping this thread - I hope those interested will seek out that match. If I didn't think it was important, I wouldn't have bumped the thread.
Nothing to "look" for, btw. He does it on 95% of the shots on the video. It's blatant - can't miss it.
Superhuman feat -- pivot + slip-stroke
Dave:
And don't forget that Cowboy Jimmy Moore did all that with a slip-stroke! So while he's pivoting, he's sliding his hand back on the grip, re-gripping (all in standard slip-stroke fashion), pivoting to the shot line, and delivering through on that shot line. I agree, that is quite a feat. But he had the movement down pat, so for him, it was probably natural -- "no biggie." At times his cue looks a bit "wobbly" on the delivery, but it might be due to the slip/re-grip not being as smooth as usual for him.
I'm a big admirer of Cowboy Moore. Beautiful slip-stroke, making it all look so effortless.
-Sean
Dave:
And don't forget that Cowboy Jimmy Moore did all that with a slip-stroke! So while he's pivoting, he's sliding his hand back on the grip, re-gripping (all in standard slip-stroke fashion), pivoting to the shot line, and delivering through on that shot line. I agree, that is quite a feat. But he had the movement down pat, so for him, it was probably natural -- "no biggie." At times his cue looks a bit "wobbly" on the delivery, but it might be due to the slip/re-grip not being as smooth as usual for him.
I'm a big admirer of Cowboy Moore. Beautiful slip-stroke, making it all look so effortless.
-Sean
If anyone ever saw Petey Fusco play back in the day, you would see a player who clearly sets his tip not even on the ball, but down and and off to the side of the ball on his warm up strokes, and then when he lets go, he hits it dead center. He is not using CTE.
I would be hard pressed to think that everyone that might not cue the ball center before their final stroke is using CTE. That isn't to say that none of them are using CTE at all. Some of them very well might be, but at the same time, it might just be goofy fundamentals that stayed a part of their game.
Happens all the time.
Speaking of Jimmy Moore.
In this series of ABC videos on you tube where he is playing Irving Crane.
They have several parts where they have an overhead camera angle.
So far, i have yet to see an overhead camera shot of Moore shooting a ball where he is doing any pivoting.
At 3:35 of this video, he is shooting a ball in the side, and he doesn't pivot at all. He is aiming at the middle of the cue ball.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Foa-lVwnfv0&feature=related
In this part of the series, also at 3:35, they have an overhead of his shooting another ball in the side, and he is again aiming at the center of the cue ball.
Also at 4:20, he is shooting a combo and again, when they cut to him, he is aiming center. When he is drawing the stick back to shoot, it gets a little wobbly but i would attribute that to his slip stroke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68gzu7P_4sg&feature=related
And in the next section of the video, at 55 seconds, they have an overhead where he is lining up a combo again, and when they cut to him before he is stroking the shot, he is again aiming like he is using a half tip of left, and he lets the cue go through that line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIUQb7VrLPs&NR=1
At no point in this series of videos, in any of the overhead shots that they have of Cowboy Jimmy Moore, does he demonstrate any type of pivot like people are claiming to CLEARLY see.
I don't know if that ESPN classic match has an overhead camera, but after looking at this series of videos WITH it's overhead camera angle, i'd be willing to bet that you would see exactly the same thing. A guy aiming at the center of the ball, and following through that line when he strokes.
As a matter of fact, i'd be willing to bet that that ESPN classic video DOES NOT have an overhead camera angle, cause if it did, and they showed clear pivots on all Jimmy Moore's shots, that would be the ultimate proof, and someone would surely have posted that info already.
So far, no one has.
In this series of ABC videos on you tube where he is playing Irving Crane.
They have several parts where they have an overhead camera angle.
So far, i have yet to see an overhead camera shot of Moore shooting a ball where he is doing any pivoting.
At 3:35 of this video, he is shooting a ball in the side, and he doesn't pivot at all. He is aiming at the middle of the cue ball.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Foa-lVwnfv0&feature=related
In this part of the series, also at 3:35, they have an overhead of his shooting another ball in the side, and he is again aiming at the center of the cue ball.
Also at 4:20, he is shooting a combo and again, when they cut to him, he is aiming center. When he is drawing the stick back to shoot, it gets a little wobbly but i would attribute that to his slip stroke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68gzu7P_4sg&feature=related
And in the next section of the video, at 55 seconds, they have an overhead where he is lining up a combo again, and when they cut to him before he is stroking the shot, he is again aiming like he is using a half tip of left, and he lets the cue go through that line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIUQb7VrLPs&NR=1
At no point in this series of videos, in any of the overhead shots that they have of Cowboy Jimmy Moore, does he demonstrate any type of pivot like people are claiming to CLEARLY see.
I don't know if that ESPN classic match has an overhead camera, but after looking at this series of videos WITH it's overhead camera angle, i'd be willing to bet that you would see exactly the same thing. A guy aiming at the center of the ball, and following through that line when he strokes.
As a matter of fact, i'd be willing to bet that that ESPN classic video DOES NOT have an overhead camera angle, cause if it did, and they showed clear pivots on all Jimmy Moore's shots, that would be the ultimate proof, and someone would surely have posted that info already.
So far, no one has.
Very true, Superstar.
Jimmy, however, aligns his cue just off the edge of the cue ball and practice strokes from there (as if that were center). He strokes to lock in the position and then immediately goes to center. It's exactly how I play, except I don't pivot to center DURING my final stroke (amaaazing). I'm going to illegally record a few segments of that match and edit it down to his setup and CB strike for everyone to check out.
I spend my pool life basically trying to master this exact same move (so suffice it to say, I know it when I see it). The "hmmmm" moment that stuck me funny was the telecast was from 1981, and Jimmy was well beyond his prime at this time. That means (to me).... how OLD is this technique really?? To us on AZB, it's a new technique that many are getting tired of reading about; however, we might have only re-discovered something that has been around forever.
I'm not saying it's not Hal's info at all. It might very well be. I'm just open to the idea that CTE far precedes him (Ralph???).