Cowboy Jimmy Moore - Obviously Using Center to Edge

[SUPERSTAR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc2Q5lh_VRk

Here's another shot/angle. I promise to get the whole match up soon.

This is what i like.

FINALLY.

You see, i like blatantly obvious stuff. It really cuts out all the crap.

The more videos there are like this, the better it is for people arguing in favor of it.
Now it's just a matter of how many more videos are out there like this.
Think of all the arguments that a tidal wave of videos like this might prevent.

Considering that in the shots i posted, how he was all about center of the cue ball, and how in the Spidey shots, he is all about the edge, one has to wonder WHEN exactly he switched over.

Maybe Blackjack could clear it up when this might have happened, cause there seems to be a clear distinction in styles for CJM between the 2 time frames.

Hhmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[AtLarge]

... According to Fez, Greenleaf was the genius that had "figured it all out - and then he killed everybody with it."

Greenleaf could make any shot - no matter how ridiculous the angle or how impossible that it looked to others.

The conversations that I had with Cowboy Jimmy Moore about 14.1, aiming, alignment, ball speed, etc, occurred between 1988 and 1998. I didn't sit there with a notebook or a tape recorder - so I am going by memory - which isn't perfect, but I do know that there was an aiming system that was passed down from Greenleaf.

I am not completely sure if Moore shared it with Willis, or if Willis shared it with Moore, or how Lassiter was involved in all of that. What I can say confidently is that there was an aiming system and Cowboy Jimmy Moore used it, and it was passed down from Greenleaf. ...

According to Hal Houle, Greenleaf had nothing to do with the CTE method that Hal teaches. Hal viewed Greenleaf as an idiot savant; Greenleaf played pool fantastically well but didn't really know much about what he was doing (according to Hal).

 

[Shark75]

oh, COME ON.

Who the frip knows why he did what he did. You are trying to read lamb entrails from 50 years removed. And now he's dead and gone, RIP, and you're trying to ascribe ca-ca, that NO ONE can know about, one way or the other, concerning why he was doing what he was doing, maybe, on some shots. Maybe it was totally unconscious the way he shot.

How about giving us a bunch of videos of the top current champs who can be asked about this stuff?! I mean, why does Cory Duel air pump before each shot?

Why does Allen Hopkins switch hands to chalk before every shot?

Why does Bustamonte go to the bottom of the cue ball on every shot?

Is it because of CTE?! Be serious.

If I posted 100 videos of current guys NOT pivoting -- would that prove anything to you? No, it wouldn't and shouldn't.

Come on -- you're a smart guy too and this is all gas.

Lou Figueroa

Spider, thank you for the posting the videos. This is what I wanted players to see and learn from when I originally started this string. You cant argue that a top level pro was using a pivoting system (CTE). I am excited to see what other videos Spider posts from this match. We can learn a lot from all of us discussing what we are seeing. I've learned a lot watching how he pivots.

Lou, you obviously dont know jack about CTE. I could shoot against you all night using CTE and you would never know it. Thats because I've learned how to hide my pivot. I can do my pivoting in the air while I'm lining up the shot, and I am no where even close to a professional level. By the way, when I air pivot I am always pivoting from the left on every shot. Imagine what a top level pro can do with this system. I believe there are a lot of pros who know how to use the system and are very good at hiding it. Pool players are famous for hiding their knowledge...especially when it comes to aiming!

Just because you dont see a table pivot doesnt mean a pivot didn't take place. Before you say something so ignorant, why dont you first learn how to use the system you are criticizing. You are trying to sound smart writing about something you obviously know nothing about. Since you dont have the mental capacity to understand what we are discussing (which is pretty bad since Spider gave you the visual aid), you need to get off this string and pay someone to teach you the system. That way, those of us who are capable of understanding whats happening in Spiders videos can share some good info.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

oh, COME ON.

Who the frip knows why he did what he did. You are trying to read lamb entrails from 50 years removed. And now he's dead and gone, RIP, and you're trying to ascribe ca-ca, that NO ONE can know about, one way or the other, concerning why he was doing what he was doing, maybe, on some shots. Maybe it was totally unconscious the way he shot.

How about giving us a bunch of videos of the top current champs who can be asked about this stuff?! I mean, why does Cory Duel air pump before each shot?

Why does Allen Hopkins switch hands to chalk before every shot?

Why does Bustamonte go to the bottom of the cue ball on every shot?

Is it because of CTE?! Be serious.

If I posted 100 videos of current guys NOT pivoting -- would that prove anything to you? No, it wouldn't and shouldn't.

Come on -- you're a smart guy too and this is all gas.

Lou Figueroa

Good thing there's such thing as video so people can come to their own conclusion

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Good thing there's such thing as video so people can come to their own conclusion

Yeah, but you gotta admit that up till now, videos haven't really been reinforcing the argument and instead, hearsay has.

Big difference between the 2.

 

[Shark75]

Yeah, but you gotta admit that up till now, videos haven't really been reinforcing the argument and instead, hearsay has.

Big difference between the 2.

Superstar, I agree with your statement. Video hasnt always been the deciding factor. But I think thats because a lot of the players who use it do not use a table pivot. The pivot is done in the air. This is an intentional technique used by advanced players to hide their pivot.

Has anyone ever posted a video showing the air pivot and how it can be used to hide that you are using CTE?

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Yes I remember someone posting a video showing how they air pivot, which really hide the fact that they were using CTE.

Thanks Spidey for finding the videos of Jimmy Moore, it looks very clear that he is using a form of CTE.

As to why some videos shows him using it, others not, I have no idea. Perhaps he used CTE for some shots, and another system for others??

Sadly we will never know.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

But I think thats because a lot of the players who use it do not use a table pivot. The pivot is done in the air. This is an intentional technique used by advanced players to hide their pivot.

And this is a key point that gets everyone all fired up.
There is no doubt that you are correct that certain top players use CTE.

But, there are certain people that can't help but go off with claims that are completely unsubstantiated, and claims that quite often have been disproved.
This is something that has happened in the majority of aiming threads at one point or another.
This is the only thread i have read where there is some sort of evidence to back up one of those claims.

I know a couple of players that use CTE, but they eyeball the shots in the air and SET without using a pivot.

It's not that they are trying to "hide" their pivots, it's just they feel more comfortable doing it without it. (although some conspiracy theorists would suggest that every top player is using CTE and hiding it)

One of the guys, makes all sorts of shots, and the other misses all sorts of shots. Neither of them pivot.

So in saying that, i would assume that "air pivoting" can have it's disadvantages if one is not able to visualize the aiming line and line up correctly or if their fundamentals stink.
I think this (visualization ability) is a key distinction between higher level players and players that stay in the mid ranges, regardless of what type of aiming system they use.

I am curious to know how many players would be more successful if they stuck to the more mechanical version of using the cue to aim and then pivoting, vs the air pivot. I would think that for some, it would only improve their results as it would take the guesswork of visualization out of the equation.

 

[powerpool]

Pivot

I am watching one of my old vhs tapes. It is Cowboy playing Puckett. Cowboy is on the left side of the cue on almost every shot and then pivots back to center on his last stroke. I had the pleasure of talking with Jimmy years ago at the BCA trade show and asked him why he cued this way. At that time I had no clue about CTE. His answer was that it hid what kind of english he was putting on the ball so his opponents wouldn't learn from him. I had heard that if his name was on the roster of a tournament that most the people would leave as they knew the had no chance of winning. I have a few more old tapes but the video is very bad. I love watching this guy what a class act.

 

[DangerousDave]

But I think thats because a lot of the players who use it do not use a table pivot. The pivot is done in the air. This is an intentional technique used by advanced players to hide their pivot.

So you think, but in reality they are using ghost-ball aiming and incorporating an imperceptible air-pivot to throw you off the scent. Those devious pros!

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, you obviously dont know jack about CTE. I could shoot against you all night using CTE and you would never know it. Thats because I've learned how to hide my pivot...

Just because you dont see a table pivot doesnt mean a pivot didn't take place. Before you say something so ignorant, why dont you first learn how to use the system you are criticizing. You are trying to sound smart writing about something you obviously know nothing about. Since you dont have the mental capacity to understand what we are discussing (which is pretty bad since Spider gave you the visual aid), you need to get off this string and pay someone to teach you the system. That way, those of us who are capable of understanding whats happening in Spiders videos can share some good info.

lol. I must ask: does it hurt to sit there and type when your balls swell up that big?

I read all 15 of your posts. As others have pointed out already: you are an obvious troll, who is only here to pump CTE; you are a dufus who failed to observe the biggest slip stroke in pool; you are so clueless that you thought you were going to surprise us by dropping Hal Houle's name, though we've talked about him on various boards for over a decade; you have only been playing for 17 years (but seem to think that's a real long time); and now we can add to the list that you believe in Jedi mind tricks to hide your pivot (so no one will know!) and that you are a weenie who likes to hide behind a screen name and hurl insults.

As Smorg would have said: What a maroon.

Lou Figueroa
lol
still
laughing

 

[lfigueroa]

Good thing there's such thing as video so people can come to their own conclusion

Yes, but: we all have our own two peepers, too.

As previously mentioned on General Hospital, we've been talking about Hal Houle and CTE for over a decade. During that time, in addition to watching huge piles of Accu-Stats videos and DVDs, I've gone and played all levels of players at the DCC, the US Open (1pocket), and other events across the country. As you know, I also spent four days watching the current crop of elite players at the US Open 10-ball in Vegas.

And I see no pivoting.

So I guess I'm just asking: is the best you can do to drag out a couple of 50-year old shots of a dead pool player? I mean, what is the point? We can never know why he was doing what he did on a couple of shots way back then. (My theory is that he did it to help him get the slip stroke going and nothing else.) If you want to prove your point, why not have some video up of the current crop of champions, instead of dear departed Cowboy Jimmy Moore?

Lou Figueroa

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Yes, but: we all have our own two peepers, too.

As previously mentioned on General Hospital, we've been talking about Hal Houle and CTE for over a decade. During that time, in addition to watching huge piles of Accu-Stats videos and DVDs, I've gone and played all levels of players at the DCC, the US Open (1pocket), and other events across the country. As you know, I also spent four days watching the current crop of elite players at the US Open 10-ball in Vegas.

And I see no pivoting.

So I guess I'm just asking: is the best you can do to drag out a couple of 50-year old shots of a dead pool player? I mean, what is the point? We can never know why he was doing what he did on a couple of shots way back then. (My theory is that he did it to help him get the slip stroke going and nothing else.) If you want to prove your point, why not have some video up of the current crop of champions, instead of dear departed Cowboy Jimmy Moore?

Lou Figueroa

Dude, you make zero sense. The thread is about Jimmy Moore. I posted a video of Jimmy pivoting. What are you talking about????

If you want to see a current champ use CTE, stare at Bustamante for a little while. *rolling my eyes*

 

[lfigueroa]

Dude, you make zero sense. The thread is about Jimmy Moore. I posted a video of Jimmy pivoting. What are you talking about????

Given the context of the larger discussion about CTE on this board, which ranges and migrates over seemingly countless threads, this is more than a bit disingenuous.

But anywhos, from the OP:
"For those of you who dont know, he was using an aiming system called Center to Edge."

Your post:
"I just saw this match last night. If anyone is interested in pivoting, this is a must-see. Regardless if "CTE" was a known-term back then (early 80's when the telecast was made), Jimmy clearly sets his tip on the edge of the CB and pivots to center on his last stroke..."

Forgive me if I mistakenly assumed you were trying to make a connection between Jimmy Moore and CTE and the original intent of this thread If it will make you happier to not discuss my question in *this* thread, I'd be happy to start one with the right subject line...

Lou Figueroa

 

[Bob Jewett]

... The thread is about Jimmy Moore. ...

In both of the clips you show of Moore, there is a left-to-right motion of the tip on the final stroke. For some players, that's due to cross-eye dominance. Do you have any clips of him shooting other shots where he goes right-to-left?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Given the context of the larger discussion about CTE on this board, which ranges and migrates over seemingly countless threads, this is more than a bit disingenuous.

But anywhos, from the OP:
"For those of you who dont know, he was using an aiming system called Center to Edge."

Your post:
"I just saw this match last night. If anyone is interested in pivoting, this is a must-see. Regardless if "CTE" was a known-term back then (early 80's when the telecast was made), Jimmy clearly sets his tip on the edge of the CB and pivots to center on his last stroke..."

Forgive me if I mistakenly assumed you were trying to make a connection between Jimmy Moore and CTE and the original intent of this thread If it will make you happier to not discuss my question in *this* thread, I'd be happy to start one with the right subject line...

Lou Figueroa

I wasn't trying to make a connection... I did.

 

[lfigueroa]

In both of the clips you show of Moore, there is a left-to-right motion of the tip on the final stroke. For some players, that's due to cross-eye dominance. Do you have any clips of him shooting other shots where he goes right-to-left?

I saw that too and was wondering the same thing. As I've said, it could have just been part of his wind up for the slip stroke motion.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I wasn't trying to make a connection... I did.

Only for those that have already drunk the Kool-Aid.

Sooo, any slightly more current video? Maybe of someone who is alive?

Lou Figueroa
do we have
any of those?

 

[peteypooldude]

For the reason why Busta goes to the bottom of the cb is IMHO that is the center of the cb,not right or left.That is him pivoting to center

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

He said, he lays his cue down at the side of the cueball so that the cue doesn't interfere with his vision while aiming. On the final stroke he pushes it through the cueball where he wants to hit it.