Cue Makers with Tight Tolerances?

Black-Balled said:
I think the conical design is the way to get the tightest fit, btw.

Piloted a close 2nd, standard threads about a lap and a half behind.

c/ o Layain Cues;
planche-layani.jpg
Click to expand...


Never tried conical. Been curious though.

I don't think this tolerance has anything to do with the quality of the hit or even the quality of the cue within reasonable limits anyway.

As for the piloted...it really depends on if you are talking about a true compression pilot or not. Most are not true compression pilots these days. My old JOSS is, my newer JOSS cues are not.

Th true compression pilot is really a thing of the past I think.
 
Chopdoc said:
Never tried conical. Been curious though.

I don't think this tolerance has anything to do with the quality of the hit or even the quality of the cue within reasonable limits anyway.

As for the piloted...it really depends on if you are talking about a true compression pilot or not. Most are not true compression pilots these days. My old JOSS is, my newer JOSS cues are not.

Th true compression pilot is really a thing of the past I think.
Click to expand...

Are the Lambros Ultras true compression pilots?

Conical provides 5x more surface are contact between shaft/ butt than traditional joint designs, claims the Layani website:

http://www.layanicues.com/sitexml/Files/main-en.html then click 'technology' on L) side.
 
I had a conversation with a local cue maker last week about joints. He is a retired IBM engineer and thinks everything way out and does a lot of math to make just one cue. For example he spends about 30 minutes putting the materials of a cue into some spreadsheet he created to make sure he can reach ideal weight and balance point. He also has a log of the bend tolerances for every shaft he has ever made or cleaned for that matter. He is a very interesting man to talk to about cues.

Anyway, he was explaining to me how a 5/16 -18 joint would naturally get tighter than a 5/16 - 14 joint. His explanation was if you have a heavy object to push up a ramp it would be easier to push up a small angled ramp rather than a steeper ramp. A thread on a joint is basically a ramp, just one in a circular motion if you think about it. Therefore the finer the thread the less the angle of the "ramp" and the tighter you should be able to get it.

I had thought up until that point that my Olney which gives you a major forearm workout to screw together the last few turns was the tightest possible, but at a 3/8 - 10 and with his theory I just don't know now. Although my Olney has never became the least bit loose while playing with it.
 
Chopdoc said:
Never tried conical. Been curious though.

I don't think this tolerance has anything to do with the quality of the hit or even the quality of the cue within reasonable limits anyway.

As for the piloted...it really depends on if you are talking about a true compression pilot or not. Most are not true compression pilots these days. My old JOSS is, my newer JOSS cues are not.

Th true compression pilot is really a thing of the past I think.
Click to expand...

The conical joint hits well, but I didn't keep the cue long enough to see
how it stood up to wear and tear.

I would like to see the double-threaded Viking 'super-joint' made of
Joey Gold's pin material.

Doc....what is a true compression pilot?
Is this why I wouldn't take a new car for my '68 Joss?

A cue-maker (who is no longer with us) told me that a tight pilot makes
a difference any time you hit the cue-ball off center.
 
My Carmelli and my BHQ are both tight....It's like a work-out just to put them together....
 
rburgoyne said:
I had a conversation with a local cue maker last week about joints. He is a retired IBM engineer and thinks everything way out and does a lot of math to make just one cue. For example he spends about 30 minutes putting the materials of a cue into some spreadsheet he created to make sure he can reach ideal weight and balance point. He also has a log of the bend tolerances for every shaft he has ever made or cleaned for that matter. He is a very interesting man to talk to about cues.

Anyway, he was explaining to me how a 5/16 -18 joint would naturally get tighter than a 5/16 - 14 joint. His explanation was if you have a heavy object to push up a ramp it would be easier to push up a small angled ramp rather than a steeper ramp. A thread on a joint is basically a ramp, just one in a circular motion if you think about it. Therefore the finer the thread the less the angle of the "ramp" and the tighter you should be able to get it.

I had thought up until that point that my Olney which gives you a major forearm workout to screw together the last few turns was the tightest possible, but at a 3/8 - 10 and with his theory I just don't know now. Although my Olney has never became the least bit loose while playing with it.
Click to expand...

Who is this 'local cue-maker'?
I'm very curious about his theories....I prefer 18 thread over 14 thread.
And I had two snooker cues that were 24 thread that hit like a dream.
..for me, it's all feel...but I'd like to know more about this cue-maker.
 
I'm surprised Huebler's haven't been brought up. Very tight joint but not because of tolerances. That nylon insert provides a pretty solid hit.
 
pt109 said:
Doc....what is a true compression pilot?
Is this why I wouldn't take a new car for my '68 Joss?

A cue-maker (who is no longer with us) told me that a tight pilot makes
a difference any time you hit the cue-ball off center.
Click to expand...

Basically it's a tight pilot.
 
.


I don't know about the newer Schon but the two Runde era that I have are a tight fit. Any shaft with a 5/16 fittng will fit on the butt but the Schon shaft will not fit on a butt from another make. It gets tighter during the last turn. Don't think it really makes a difference in anything. Bolts that are used in building construction don't have interference fits. Everything depends on friction, tightness and surface mating.



.
 
The Secret to a Tight Cue



You want a tight tolerance cue?

Have a cue made for you by a Hall of Fame Cue Maker !!!!

Hall of Fame Cue Makers stand behind their products and will make it right, it is in their DNA.

Don't even think about the cost, just do it.

Case in point Bill Stroud "Joss West" sent me three cues before he sent the right one, I wanted one with his original fancy ring work at the joint.
All three cues he sent were beautiful and there are three lucky guy's who have them.
The problem with the three cues were that they were made with a Stainless Steel joint.
I wanted a Ivory joint.
Bill said Barney a Ivory joint will eventually crack, and you are going to blame me.
Bill you were right you did a terrible job..........grin.
The Ivory joint cracked last year..... now what are you going to do about it.
I bought the cue in 1972, I believe? I shouldn't have cracked after 40 years !!!!!
Bill it was't your fault, I moved to a hot area and when, I came home one day three of my Ivory jointed cues were cracked.

What HOF guy's charge too much, yeah right............
Bill Stroud Ivory Joint $180
Bert Schrager Ivory joint, $200
Ray Schuler Schuler Joint Gift
 
BarneyCalip said:


You want a tight tolerance cue?

Have a cue made for you by a Hall of Fame Cue Maker !!!!

Hall of Fame Cue Makers stand behind their products and will make it right, it is in their DNA.

Don't even think about the cost, just do it.

Case in point Bill Stroud "Joss West" sent me three cues before he sent the right one, I wanted one with his original fancy ring work at the joint.
All three cues he sent were beautiful and there are three lucky guy's who have them.
The problem with the three cues were that they were made with a Stainless Steel joint.
I wanted a Ivory joint.
Bill said Barney a Ivory joint will eventually crack, and you are going to blame me.
Bill you were right you did a terrible job..........grin.
The Ivory joint cracked last year..... now what are you going to do about it.
I bought the cue in 1972, I believe? I shouldn't have cracked after 40 years !!!!!
Bill it was't your fault, I moved to a hot area and when, I came home one day three of my Ivory jointed cues were cracked.

What HOF guy's charge too much, yeah right............
Bill Stroud Ivory Joint $180
Bert Schrager Ivory joint, $200
Ray Schuler Schuler Joint Gift
Click to expand...


Hmmm...interesting notion.

Stroud is in the Hall of Fame?

Neither the international nor the national cue makers hall of fame includes Stroud as far as I know....though I have not checked lately.

His former partner Dan Janes is. Now there is a high bang for your buck hall of famer cue if you ask me.


Stroud was a great cue maker, now retired of course. Not a hall of famer (yet?)....correct me if I am wrong.

EDIT: Apparently people who sell Josswest cues refer to him as a "future" hall of famer.
 
Bill Stroud is not in the Billiard Hall of Fame

Chopdoc, I stand corrected, I was in error.

I apologize to you, Bill Stroud and the AZ Forum family for my mistake.

It is my personal opinion that he should be in the Hall of Fame.
Bill's cues hit awesome.
Everyone who has hit with my Joss West loves it and wants it, Barney

 
Simple solution to all the questions about threads

shoot with a one piece cue.

SLIM
 
Chopdoc said:
EDIT: Apparently people who sell Josswest cues refer to him as a "future" hall of famer.
Click to expand...

I may not be his biggest fan, but goodness he should be in every cuemaker Hall of Fame.

Freddie <~~~ supporter for Hall of Famer - Bill Stroud
 
Tight Fit,,,,

I'll put Jeff Olney up there against any of them,,,,and I have most of those ''Big Cues'',,,,,,,,,,,,!!
 
Cdryden said:
Here is a pic taken from Bob Dzurickys page explaining his threads. Interesting read.

pin.jpg


http://dzcues.com/
Click to expand...

Chris:

Thanks for passing this on. The information is correct about the modified 3/8-10 pin, in that it closes-up the gap between the wood and the minor diameter of the screw (i.e. the "rod" part of the screw). I believe this pin was invented to compete with the Radial pin in that regard.

However, to borrow a little rifle-barrel-speak (i.e. "lands and grooves"), because wood is softer than steel, the rounded "lands" of the Radial pin's cut is more conducive to gentle and more uniform wear on the pressure points on the wood when the joint is screwed together. Plus, it's nearly impossible to cross-thread a Radial-cut shaft, because 1.) the penetration of the grooves in the wood is deeper, and 2.) the beginning of the rounded "land" inside the wood simply won't allow the initial thread of the steel pin to cut into it without blistering the end of the shaft itself. (I'll go on record as saying if one manages to cross-thread a Radial pin, either that joint was cut incorrectly or else the person assembling the cue was actually an 800lb gorilla!)

But the modified 3/8-10 is a great compromise, because a shaft that already accepts a standard 3/8-10 pin is easily modified by drilling out the existing pin's hole a wee bit larger to accept the larger "rod" underneath the threads of the modified 3/8-10 pin.

-Sean
 
I have a Gina with phenolic inserts in the shaft collars and you can't just spin the shaft on tho the butt. There is no play at all when screwing the cue together. And obviously everything fits flush.
 
DoubleD said:
I'm not convinced a tight fitting screw is a good thing. Any idiot can tap a hole that will fit a screw tightly, but that is not how a screw is meant to work. Screws are very good at resolving axial force (i.e. the screw works in tension) and very bad at resolving side and bending forces.

But, if it gives you the 'warm and fuzzies', go ahead and believe it.

dld
Click to expand...

You got it. It's not a good thing, but not a bad thing, either. What it does is center lines the cue for placement, meaning the shaft seats down on the butt in the same place every time, no slop. That's the plus. Otherwise, once tightened, the cue's energy will flow efficiently through the faces, no matter how sloppy the threads are. It could maybe be argued that a tight fit increases energy flow efficiency, but i'd have to see lab data to prove it because I haven't experienced it personally.

The finer threads do indeed make it easier to tighten a shaft, and can actually get tighter than coarse threads. But at what point does it not matter? A solid union at the faces is all that's needed. Anything past that is potential danger for damage due to compression.

Personally, I have become accustomed to a tighter (smooth) fitting 3/8-10 flat minor pin. Not because it plays better, but because of alignment purposes, keeping things on center so the shaft is always flush to the butt. That's the only practical reason, and IMO, a good reason.
 
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