Cuemaker keeping a customer's cue

Give the que back or file THEFT charges

maha said:
if it had a fake logo then i could see the maker taking that off. but keeping the cue or messing with any other part of it is criminal. it was sent to verify it not to have it confiscated.
without now knowing who it was how could anyone send any high dollar cue to anyone for verification knowing that it might be taken away or ruined by someone reputable at cue making. what if it was real and the cuemaker made a mistake. or if it was real and had be repaired years before and changed somewhat.
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I would go to the full extent of the law to get my que back and if that did not work, I feel sorry for the DB when I run into them in the future. Because they would be filling out a police report on me, but someone would have to sign their name for them since neither of their arms would work too good.

Have a good day.:confused::confused::confused:
 
I don't think that he should keep it. They should try to find who is making them.

I agree with the others. Remove the markings and send it back. Don't do any other work on it because then it could be considered that makers cue.

On the other hand could this falls into that gray area like getting counterfeit money. You are the loser.
 
Basis in LAW????

Surely someone knows what law(s) govern this situation?

Seems most everyone is tossing out opinion, not law.

If the forged cue is illegal (infringement law?), then in the absence of an agreement between the 2 parties, shouldn't the police be called?

My speculation (opinion, lol):

I don't know that a custom cue made by "John Quemaker", with John's logo on it, with no trademark/copyright registration or whatnot, is protected such that it would deem the cue illegal. In the absence of such protection, I wouldn't think the authentic cuemaker has any right to alter or keep the cue without consent from the owner.


CUEMAKERS: ARE THERE INFRINGEMENT LAWS GOVERNING THIS SITUATION?
 
It is certainly a matter for the courts, either way.

If the cuemaker has confiscated the cue, then the sender has the right to sue for its return.

If the cuemaker confiscated the cue and turned it over to the police as part of a copyright fraud case, etc, then the cue should be in the possession of the police.

This is nasty, especially for the innocent victim who purchased the item in good faith.

Joe
 
KoolKat9Lives said:
Surely someone knows what law(s) govern this situation?

Seems most everyone is tossing out opinion, not law.

If the forged cue is illegal (infringement law?), then in the absence of an agreement between the 2 parties, shouldn't the police be called?

My speculation (opinion, lol):

I don't know that a custom cue made by "John Quemaker", with John's logo on it, with no trademark/copyright registration or whatnot, is protected such that it would deem the cue illegal. In the absence of such protection, I wouldn't think the authentic cuemaker has any right to alter or keep the cue without consent from the owner.

CUEMAKERS: ARE THERE INFRINGEMENT LAWS GOVERNING THIS SITUATION?
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CONVERSION - Torts. The unlawful turning or applying the personal goods of another to the use of the taker, or of some other person than the owner; or the unlawful destroying or altering their nature.

When a party takes away or wrongfully assumes the right to goods which belong to another, it will in general be sufficient evidence of a conversion but when the original taking was lawful, as when the party found the goods, and the detention only is illegal, it is absolutely necessary to make a demand of the goods, and there must be a refusal to deliver them before the conversion will be complete. The refusal by a servant to deliver the goods entrusted to him by his master is not evidence of a conversion by his master.

The tortious taking of property is, of itself, a conversion and any intermeddling with it, or any exercise of dominion over it, subversive of the dominion of the owner or the nature of the bailment if it be bailed, is evidence of a conversion.

Of course the law is never that simple, and often you get involved in a conflicting set of laws, in which case one will supercede another. That said, you must still follow due process. IMO the cuemaker did not.

First of all the cue belonged to another and even if he had and believed that his trademark or intellectual property rights had been violated, he still had no right to personally confiscate the property. Just like Calvin Klein cannot just go into retail establishments and personally conficate unauthorized knock offs of his clothes, this cuemaker must follow the judicial process through the courts.

Disclaimer; This is not legal advice.

Jim
 
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Problem #2. I spoke with Neil about this a little. I am not sure where the cue's owner is but the cue manufacturer is not a Florida cuemaker. This is going through another state since the offense took place in that state you would have to go by that state's laws for a tort case. Non the less we go back to a civil court case not a criminal one unless they are broken up individually. One being from cuemaker to replicator for unauthorized use of a trademark. Getting copywrite on the cue design itself will be nearly impossible. The other would be between the cuemaker and the current owner for theft.

Disclaimer: I AM NOT A LAWYER despite my related degree. I will gladly accept any corrections from any attorneys that would like to chime in if I have not stated this correctly. But, I don't think I'm too rusty on this crap.
 
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You say "manufacturer" like its a production cue,not that it should make a differance but is it a custom or production cue?
 
I kind of don't get this!

Okay is this a new form of gambling or something? Do you get odds on the cue being authentic before sending it off? I mean it seems a bit of a lopsided bet. On one hand, you get authentification, on the other you lose your cue!

I mean the fact that a cue is sent for verification assumes the possibility that it may or may not be made by that cuemaker! This was the sole purpose of sending it! So if the cuemaker has intentions of keeping the cue- if in fact it is not his (ironic, isn't it?)- should he say so up front?

I have NEVER heard of this happening. Can anyone else tell me of a situation where a cuemaker has done this in the past? I hear of cues being sent all the time for this purpose. Does that mean that EVERY cue has been verified? Or is it just possible that this is NOT common practice and is not how this kind of thing is done?

I, for one would love to hear the cuemakers point of view on this. Why so quiet? If you have the nerve to tell your customer (or potential customer) that you feel justified in keeping his cue, why not come on here and tell why? This feels VERY shady! Why not come out and explain yourself?


Did you offer some sort of compromise? Even a discounted deal on a cue? This guy was willing to pony up the cash to be able to own a cue from you. He obviously respects your work, and has intention of having one of your cues. He made a mistake. You are punishing him for a mistake. Why do that? Offer some solutions! Make a happy customer. Then he will have a great cue and a great story about the maker! What is the deal?

Hypothetical- You see someone playing in a pool hall with this cue, do you rip it out of his hands? I fail to see a difference. Oh, except that this guy actually showed some trust and good faith in you first by sending it to you! Way to show it was misplaced.

Again, why so silent?


Jw
 
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I dont think they are a member of this site or they would have allready spoke up.As wrong as a fake cue might be I still cant see a reputable maker just saying "too bad,you're out of luck".. Got to be more to it,or this whole story is fake. Maybe I'm wrong but a maker is not going to take a chance at hurting his rep over a piece of crap cue. Just dont sound right....
 
Junkyarddog said:
Problem #2. I spoke with Neil about this a little. I am not sure where the cue's owner is but the cue manufacturer is not a Florida cuemaker. This is going through another state since the offense took place in that state you would have to go by that state's laws for a tort case. Non the less we go back to a civil court case not a criminal one unless they are broken up individually. One being from cuemaker to replicator for unauthorized use of a trademark. Getting copywrite on the cue design itself will be nearly impossible. The other would be between the cuemaker and the current owner for theft.

Disclaimer: I AM NOT A LAWYER despite my related degree. I will gladly accept any corrections from any attorneys that would like to chime in if I have not stated this correctly. But, I don't think I'm too rusty on this crap.
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Although there are choices for determining venue, most favor the defendant. In this case it would likely be the place of residence or business of the defendant (cuemaker). The laws of that state apply.

This should be a civil case of illegal conversion, IMO, since no "taking of property", by force; breaking and entering, etc, took place, and the property, from what we are told, belongs to the sender, it would not appear to meet the standards of theft. The party mailed the item willingly.

At this point, I, or my attorney, would send a registered letter "demanding" the return of my property immediately. If the cuemaker did not respond by returning my cue, I would proceed with legal action, of course providing the cue is more valuable than the cost of litigation. If it was returned. I'd let it be.

Disclaimer: This is not to be considered legal advice.

Jim
 
Bs

I cry BS on this one. There would be no reason the OP can not say who the cuemaker is after several people on this thread have asked. If this person doesn't really seem so heartbroken or pissed on what happened, they should have no problem saying who it is. Either certain details are missing on this story or I smell a rat...

Edit...I see you say you know them personally so you don't want to start a war...so then why start this thread? You know what is going to happen if you do... just sayin.
 
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jimmyg said:
This should be a civil case of illegal conversion, IMO, since no "taking of property", by force; breaking and entering, etc, took place, and the property, from what we are told, belongs to the sender, it would not appear to meet the standards of theft. The party mailed the item willingly.
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Jim,

The lack of force or breaking and entering would (in most, if not all, states) remove this crime from the status of robbery or burglary, but it would not remove the status of theft. Delivery does not normally prevent the illegal conversion from being defined as theft. For example, Wisconsin law reads, "If the property owner willingly delivers the property to a person who later decides to take the property and convert it into his own use, a larceny is committed when the property is converted....Under Wisconsin law, the charge for larceny is theft. "

I don't think a letter frrom the cue owner's lawyer is the proper action (especially considering that my attorney has never written a letter for less than about a thousand bucks). The OP should call the cue maker and advise him that if the cue is not returned immediately then the police will be called and the OP will file a theft report against the cue maker.

If the cuemaker has a legitimate registered trademark, and if the cue appears to violate that trademark, the cue maker should have called his attorney when he received the cue. The attorney should know what actions to take. The cue maker cannot legally hang on to the cue until after a judgment has been made that there has been a violation of law. The courts have to make that judgement; not the cue maker.

What the cue maker should be pursuing is finding the a**hole that perpetrated the initial fraud by creating a fake cue and selling it as genuine.
But, as several have pointed out, we only have a small bit of the entire story.
 
junkbond said:
Jim,

The lack of force or breaking and entering would (in most, if not all, states) remove this crime from the status of robbery or burglary, but it would not remove the status of theft. Delivery does not normally prevent the illegal conversion from being defined as theft. For example, Wisconsin law reads, "If the property owner willingly delivers the property to a person who later decides to take the property and convert it into his own use, a larceny is committed when the property is converted....Under Wisconsin law, the charge for larceny is theft. "

I don't think a letter frrom the cue owner's lawyer is the proper action (especially considering that my attorney has never written a letter for less than about a thousand bucks). The OP should call the cue maker and advise him that if the cue is not returned immediately then the police will be called and the OP will file a theft report against the cue maker.

If the cuemaker has a legitimate registered trademark, and if the cue appears to violate that trademark, the cue maker should have called his attorney when he received the cue. The attorney should know what actions to take. The cue maker cannot legally hang on to the cue until after a judgment has been made that there has been a violation of law. The courts have to make that judgement; not the cue maker.

What the cue maker should be pursuing is finding the a**hole that perpetrated the initial fraud by creating a fake cue and selling it as genuine.
But, as several have pointed out, we only have a small bit of the entire story.
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Not to argue the issues, just to clarify.

True that delivery, in and of itself, does not eliminate the described act from the crime of theft. The legal definition of theft is broad, it includes; any example or act of stealing, which includes burglary, embezzlement, false pretenses, fraud, and larceny. I don't believe that any of these, or similiar acts, occured...I could be wrong.

Certainly, if the sender can convince the cuemaker's local law enforcement agencies to treat the situation as a "theft", that would simplify and lessen the cost of recovery. Just the threat of being criminally charged would probably settle this very quickly. But, IMO, this will most likely result in a civil action, if any.

I would positively send a registered and certified letter demanding the return of my property. I would write the letter myself and, as I stated before, if the cost of having an attorney become involved, either to write the letter and/or litigate, exceeds the value of the cue then I probably wouldn't bother taking this route. But the letter is necessary, in many cases the conversion is not complete until the defendant refuses to return the item and the documentation serves as evidence of demand.

I totally agree. I believe that the cuemaker is acting illegally, unethically, and stupidly. He is harming an innocent person by what he is doing. The only exception I can imagine, and I do not know the actual process, is if the cuemaker has established patent/trademark rights and has turned the cue to the proper legal authorities for legal recourse.

Anyhow, enough for me. Hope this works out well for all.

Jim
 
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PoolPro~ Please read my two posts carefully, thank you.

~For all of you e-badasses what if the cuemaker, and this is a big "what if", is a female? You still going to kick her/his ass in a dark alley?

Spimp~ In the TWO posts I have made I outlined why I started this thread in the first place, please read them carefully for your answer.


Again I just wanted to find out if anyone had a similar experience with ANY cuemaker about them keeping a cue because of a possible patent/ trademark infringement?
 
Fuji-whopper said:
PoolPro~ Please read my two posts carefully, thank you.

~For all of you e-badasses what if the cuemaker, and this is a big "what if", is a female? You still going to kick her/his ass in a dark alley?

Spimp~ In the TWO posts I have made I outlined why I started this thread in the first place, please read them carefully for your answer.


Again I just wanted to find out if anyone had a similar experience with ANY cuemaker about them keeping a cue because of a possible patent/ trademark infringement?
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Okay, I read your posts again. You say the cue has the mark of a famous cuemaker and that it was sent to that cuemaker. I have a hard time thinking that a very famous cuemaker who has his cue copied all the time is not involved on this forum.

Okay, it was a FL cuemaker, oh wait, no it isn't. It is a cue manufacturer ( or is it?) Now, the cuemaker may or may not be female! Why all this secrecy and distraction? I have to say that the whole thing sounds shady.


Even if we suppose that the cuemaker is not a memeber here. I have to believe that SOMBODY who knows the cuemaker and the situation IS. We have already confirmed that this kind of thing DOES NOT happen often ( really if ever). So it is very likely that this thread has been brought to the attention of the cuemaker in any event.

So all of my questions still stand. And I can only wonder why you would choose to start this thread and then try to throw the details off, and try to add confusion to the whole thing.

If you wanted to keep this to yourself and did not want differing opinions, why post at all?


Jw
 
Fuji-whopper said:
Spimp~ In the TWO posts I have made I outlined why I started this thread in the first place, please read them carefully for your answer.


QUOTE]

In the four posts you have made (# 1, 4, 11, 29) before my post, I get why you are starting the thread to get some opinions on what others would do. If you are really concerned, you or your friend should talk to the authorities instead of seeing what fellow cuemakers, or highend collectors would do. We can tell stories on things that have happened in the past, but every state is potentially different regarding the law. I took a law class in college in Missouri and I live in Iowa so I am a bit familiar with knowing that there are differences for certain laws even if they are minor. When you say you know the cuemaker who did this, as a friend, acquaintance or? Hopefully your friend gets this resolved in a quick/painless matter as I know I would be beyond pissed regardless if the cuemaker is a "friend". Best of luck.
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Fuji-whopper

~For all of you e-badasses what if the cuemaker, and this is a big "what if", is a female? You still going to kick her/his ass in a dark alley?
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I would never hit a woman but I can guarantee you if you stole from me you also stole from my wife who has a shorter temper than me...:grin:
 
poolpro said:
Okay, I read your posts again. You say the cue has the mark of a famous cuemaker and that it was sent to that cuemaker. I have a hard time thinking that a very famous cuemaker who has his cue copied all the time is not involved on this forum.

Okay, it was a FL cuemaker, oh wait, no it isn't. It is a cue manufacturer ( or is it?) Now, the cuemaker may or may not be female! Why all this secrecy and distraction? I have to say that the whole thing sounds shady.


Even if we suppose that the cuemaker is not a memeber here. I have to believe that SOMBODY who knows the cuemaker and the situation IS. We have already confirmed that this kind of thing DOES NOT happen often ( really if ever). So it is very likely that this thread has been brought to the attention of the cuemaker in any event.

So all of my questions still stand. And I can only wonder why you would choose to start this thread and then try to throw the details off, and try to add confusion to the whole thing.

If you wanted to keep this to yourself and did not want differing opinions, why post at all?


Jw
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I'm saying it again...

Well-known cuemaker (who the OP has referred to as 'THEM').
The cuemaker is question does NOT post here.
The cuemaker's designs are heavily copied.
The logo is found on the pin.
There is now a big 'what if' as to whether or not the cuemaker may be a female.

I'm again going to guess South West.

What do I win?
 
Contact the authorities in the jurisdiction of the cuemaker. They have no right to keep the cue. If it's being held as evidence in an investigation that's a different issue, but the cuemaker can't decide on his/her own to not return your property.
 
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