Custom Cue Mythology
- Thread starter Grilled Cheese
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hdgis1
New member
Man Vs Machine
I am not gonna argue about the who makes a better cue kinda thing cause I have already been there. However, I must say I don't agree with this last statement. The way I understand manufacturing is that there is a whole economy around choosing the appropriate machine on your production line. Set the price of the cue, decide the overhead you can carry while selling these cues to make a profit, and buy your machines. End the end, the tolerances these machines are capable of reaching seems to be the result of how much one is willing to spend on the machine itself.
I posit that a factory that is not worried about profit, could make the tightest tolerance cue any one has ever seen. And make them over and over again. I also think that when it comes to consistency, a machine has a human beat 6 days out of seven. IMO...
Chris
I am not gonna argue about the who makes a better cue kinda thing cause I have already been there. However, I must say I don't agree with this last statement. The way I understand manufacturing is that there is a whole economy around choosing the appropriate machine on your production line. Set the price of the cue, decide the overhead you can carry while selling these cues to make a profit, and buy your machines. End the end, the tolerances these machines are capable of reaching seems to be the result of how much one is willing to spend on the machine itself.
I posit that a factory that is not worried about profit, could make the tightest tolerance cue any one has ever seen. And make them over and over again. I also think that when it comes to consistency, a machine has a human beat 6 days out of seven. IMO...
Chris
Give a pool player a regular salary and they will play with anything. And the truth is the 'best' can beat most with a house cue. It takes an even competitor for a cue to make a difference.
Here is where we'll disagree. As a bit of a historian, and knowing what Brunswick was making at the turn of the century, I'll go out on a limb, piss a few people off and say that I think there were BETTER cue craftsman then. At least in the mass production level. There are guys today that on their best day wouldn't attempt to build a 360, or a marquetry cue by HAND. Back then didn't have Unique Products, CNC, Bobcad or Monkeycam.. they sighted by eye and if half of them had steady rests they were probably lucky.
JV (----Monkeycam is a joke BTW
simple things
Nothing at all taboo about the subject. I think this rabbit has been ran at least a half-dozen times since I have been on the forum. However I won't spend much more time discussing this with you because you are basing your beliefs on false assumptions to begin with and nobody can change somebody else's beliefs regardless of fact or logic presented. It is like arguing with a christian that there isn't a God or an atheist that there is.
Pictures have been posted multiple times on this forum of the predator shafts failing at the adapter. Won't happen on a custom cue, nobody that I know of uses the adapter as a production shortcut. Predator wouldn't use them either except it speeds and simplifies things in a production environment. Save three minutes on fifty shafts a year and it means nothing. Save three minutes on each of fifty shafts an hour and it significantly increases production. There have also been images posted of badly off center holes in the wonder low deflection shafts. Again the kind of work that never leaves a decent custom shop even if it happens for some reason.
Notice the little detail of how they turn the production cue in the video too, in a very few passes one behind the other. All wood can have residual stress in it from where it was at in the tree and what it supported. If the wood is stressed as we turn it down we relieve these stresses and the wood moves and warps. It often takes time for this to show which is why custom makers make many small passes over months and toss the wood that moves around too much even if it appears perfectly straight at the moment. These multiple heavy passes in factories again speed production and reduce labor costs since the shafts are handled far less. They sacrifice quality assurance in the interest of the bottom line.
There is an assurance of consistent quality from shaft to shaft buying from a good custom maker that just isn't there buying a production cue purely because of the nature of the beast of production runs. I don't have to chase around proving this, images have already been posted on these forums proving my points concerning production shafts. If you doubt me, you are welcome to dig.
Here is a start:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=131574&highlight=center+hole+predator
Ever see anything like that from a top custom cue maker?
Hu
Nothing at all taboo about the subject. I think this rabbit has been ran at least a half-dozen times since I have been on the forum. However I won't spend much more time discussing this with you because you are basing your beliefs on false assumptions to begin with and nobody can change somebody else's beliefs regardless of fact or logic presented. It is like arguing with a christian that there isn't a God or an atheist that there is.
Pictures have been posted multiple times on this forum of the predator shafts failing at the adapter. Won't happen on a custom cue, nobody that I know of uses the adapter as a production shortcut. Predator wouldn't use them either except it speeds and simplifies things in a production environment. Save three minutes on fifty shafts a year and it means nothing. Save three minutes on each of fifty shafts an hour and it significantly increases production. There have also been images posted of badly off center holes in the wonder low deflection shafts. Again the kind of work that never leaves a decent custom shop even if it happens for some reason.
Notice the little detail of how they turn the production cue in the video too, in a very few passes one behind the other. All wood can have residual stress in it from where it was at in the tree and what it supported. If the wood is stressed as we turn it down we relieve these stresses and the wood moves and warps. It often takes time for this to show which is why custom makers make many small passes over months and toss the wood that moves around too much even if it appears perfectly straight at the moment. These multiple heavy passes in factories again speed production and reduce labor costs since the shafts are handled far less. They sacrifice quality assurance in the interest of the bottom line.
There is an assurance of consistent quality from shaft to shaft buying from a good custom maker that just isn't there buying a production cue purely because of the nature of the beast of production runs. I don't have to chase around proving this, images have already been posted on these forums proving my points concerning production shafts. If you doubt me, you are welcome to dig.
Here is a start:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=131574&highlight=center+hole+predator
Ever see anything like that from a top custom cue maker?
Hu
We're not talking defective cues here.
As was stated earlier, there are production cues that are inconsistent. As well as production cues that aren't straight either.
The discussion here is about a custom cue, that isn't defective and which is consistent vs. a production cue, that isn't defective and is consistent. Does the custom perform better? Does it play better? They don't. It's up to the player to play better.
All a cue can do is react to the impact against the cue ball in the same manner each time. That's all you can expect from a cue. A good cue, regardless of custom or production should do that.
Balance, weight, thickness of grip etcetera are all personal preferences. Someone mentioned that pros have preferences and that having them set they way they like makes them play better. OK, but that also applies to a production cue. Assume another pro is perfectly satisfied with the balance and grip of a production cue - that pro is playing at his/her peak as it fits their preference. However, does that cue play better or worse because it is a production cue? It doesn't.
As was stated earlier, there are production cues that are inconsistent. As well as production cues that aren't straight either.
The discussion here is about a custom cue, that isn't defective and which is consistent vs. a production cue, that isn't defective and is consistent. Does the custom perform better? Does it play better? They don't. It's up to the player to play better.
All a cue can do is react to the impact against the cue ball in the same manner each time. That's all you can expect from a cue. A good cue, regardless of custom or production should do that.
Balance, weight, thickness of grip etcetera are all personal preferences. Someone mentioned that pros have preferences and that having them set they way they like makes them play better. OK, but that also applies to a production cue. Assume another pro is perfectly satisfied with the balance and grip of a production cue - that pro is playing at his/her peak as it fits their preference. However, does that cue play better or worse because it is a production cue? It doesn't.
Great post and great responses. Seems most everyone got their opinions across without openly insulting anyone. Rare indeed.
I would like to make a point though.
You mentioned that "sound" from a Stradivarius was actually measured and found superior than other violins. I'm sure that was a conclusion of material and construction from a "master" of the art.
That applies also to the building of cues. Although I have to agree with you in your general view of "custom cue builders", there are "masters" in cue building. And "sound " is what they aspire to. The "sound/resonance" I believe is achieved through knowledge of material and construction just like a "Strad". You can marry wood to joint to shaft to ferrule to tip and achieve something glorious! It's just rare.
I would like to make a point though.
You mentioned that "sound" from a Stradivarius was actually measured and found superior than other violins. I'm sure that was a conclusion of material and construction from a "master" of the art.
That applies also to the building of cues. Although I have to agree with you in your general view of "custom cue builders", there are "masters" in cue building. And "sound " is what they aspire to. The "sound/resonance" I believe is achieved through knowledge of material and construction just like a "Strad". You can marry wood to joint to shaft to ferrule to tip and achieve something glorious! It's just rare.
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UrbanCowboy
Registered
you made a lot of people mad--GOOD.
I totally agree with your premise.
But, for example, if you tell someone who just spent $2000 on a custom pair of shoes that he could have spent $200 in stead for off the rack, he would be mad too. This may be a bad example since custom shoes take multiple measurements and feel like walking in leather gloves instead of bulky and uncomfortable blocks/gun-boats.
Some may think this is a good analogy since their custom cues feel like extensions of their arms, as Steve Mizerak used to say about his Richard Black cues....
Personally, I adjust to whatever cue I use whether it is a limited production Meucci Original, or custom Richard Chudy, or production J Pechauer, or production Schmelke....etc. The clothes may make the man, but the man makes the cue.
From the pool basements of San Francisco
I totally agree with your premise.
But, for example, if you tell someone who just spent $2000 on a custom pair of shoes that he could have spent $200 in stead for off the rack, he would be mad too. This may be a bad example since custom shoes take multiple measurements and feel like walking in leather gloves instead of bulky and uncomfortable blocks/gun-boats.
Some may think this is a good analogy since their custom cues feel like extensions of their arms, as Steve Mizerak used to say about his Richard Black cues....
Personally, I adjust to whatever cue I use whether it is a limited production Meucci Original, or custom Richard Chudy, or production J Pechauer, or production Schmelke....etc. The clothes may make the man, but the man makes the cue.
From the pool basements of San Francisco
If you watch that great authoritative pool movie, The Hustler, Fast Eddie rolls a cue by putting the butt on the cushion and the tip on the bed of the table.
If you tell everyone the correct way to roll a cue, how will thee and me corner the market on truly straight cues?
I knew this was gonna get ugly. Stay away from 3 topics on AZ. Custom cues, smoking in poolhalls and the biggest one of all ELBOW DROPPING. Its like politics and religion. No one will ever change their mind and all you get is a 50 page thread of bickering.
Its always fun to watch though.
Its always fun to watch though.
Just an observation
I dabble in cue making and I find it interesting that almost without exception the production cues I get do not spin true on the lathe. I have a 15 year old Mottey that has both 2 shafts that spin dead nuts straight. Most of the great custom cue makers have a science on how they pick wood (how striaght the grain is, growth rings etc...). I just worked on a 50 year old Martin - both shafts were still straight - and I mean perfect straight. Most custom cue makers also take many more passes on their shafts when cutting down - mass produced cues I suspect do not.
I dabble in cue making and I find it interesting that almost without exception the production cues I get do not spin true on the lathe. I have a 15 year old Mottey that has both 2 shafts that spin dead nuts straight. Most of the great custom cue makers have a science on how they pick wood (how striaght the grain is, growth rings etc...). I just worked on a 50 year old Martin - both shafts were still straight - and I mean perfect straight. Most custom cue makers also take many more passes on their shafts when cutting down - mass produced cues I suspect do not.
I have spent thousands of dollars on high end cues including customs.
In the end I shoot with a 70$ cue with a cracked buttcap for the simple reason it feels better to me.
Lots of custom cue makers make bad cues that are inconsistent from cue to cue. Some of high end cues are fun to have as a piece of art.
Some people feel special for having one of a kind cue. As for playability it is a hit and miss like with everything else.
In the end I shoot with a 70$ cue with a cracked buttcap for the simple reason it feels better to me.
Lots of custom cue makers make bad cues that are inconsistent from cue to cue. Some of high end cues are fun to have as a piece of art.
Some people feel special for having one of a kind cue. As for playability it is a hit and miss like with everything else.
I think bolo's got a fair point, but a lot of custom cue buyers will freely admit they are buying it for looks and because it's customized to their specs.
If somehow a guy can tell the difference between 21 and 21.5, and that extra half ounce makes his speed control perfect (or whatever) then you can't fault him for paying for a custom 21.5 oz cue.
If it were strictly about playability then you'd see a lot of 21.5 oz, 12.3 mm, pro taper, 61" plain pine sticks. So I think the poster's problem isn't so much with people who make or buy these sticks... I think the problem is with them trying to BS themselves and the rest of the world as to their real reason for buying it.
And, not to single anyone out, but I think this post helped bolo's point by accident:
You purchased 8-10 custom cues, that sounds like a collector to me. Hell, collector is the wrong word, maybe 'addict' How fast do you go through them? If you're all about the playability, why didn't you find one that played perfect and stick with it for 20 years? Did the first 7 customs not hit balls good enough, or fall apart, so you just had to go buy that 8th?! Surely it can't help your consistency to keep switching every few years.
I think a lot of people buy customs because they like to shop around for, pick out, customize and buy things. No shame in that, just be honest about it.
If somehow a guy can tell the difference between 21 and 21.5, and that extra half ounce makes his speed control perfect (or whatever) then you can't fault him for paying for a custom 21.5 oz cue.
If it were strictly about playability then you'd see a lot of 21.5 oz, 12.3 mm, pro taper, 61" plain pine sticks. So I think the poster's problem isn't so much with people who make or buy these sticks... I think the problem is with them trying to BS themselves and the rest of the world as to their real reason for buying it.
And, not to single anyone out, but I think this post helped bolo's point by accident:
You purchased 8-10 custom cues, that sounds like a collector to me. Hell, collector is the wrong word, maybe 'addict'
How fast do you go through them? If you're all about the playability, why didn't you find one that played perfect and stick with it for 20 years? Did the first 7 customs not hit balls good enough, or fall apart, so you just had to go buy that 8th?! Surely it can't help your consistency to keep switching every few years. I think a lot of people buy customs because they like to shop around for, pick out, customize and buy things. No shame in that, just be honest about it.
Agreed, but with an explanation. The pros were good enough to tell the difference between cues. They needed to work with a cue maker who would work with them. They all had their own preferences, so customs were truly that - no cookie cutter cues for them.
Pete Margo told me that he liked working with George Balabushka because he could go to George tell him anything - this tips too hard or that shaft has a buzz, and no matter how many times he had to do it over, Balabushka would do it until everything was just perfect. Gus Szamboti was the same way - loved and adored by his customers. When you're running 200 balls, the last thing you want to worry about is your ferrule popping off.
There was an issue of trust and in many cases, friendship. A cue maker was like a mechanic and a psychologist to those guys - doing them a real service. But it was the cue makers also learned a lot by the interaction and this is why they are the "greats".
Chris
Billiards is 95% skill/talent/experience and 5% equipment. Some folks think they can buy themselves into playing a better game. If you buy a custom and it boost's your thinking that your equipment is going to help your game, you'll probably play better.
As we all know, if you approach the table guessing what the outcome of the shot is going to be, you have already talked yourself out of the shot before you even stoke the cue...
With that said, make mine a custom, all day long...
As we all know, if you approach the table guessing what the outcome of the shot is going to be, you have already talked yourself out of the shot before you even stoke the cue...
With that said, make mine a custom, all day long...
A custom cue is about pride of ownership and craftsmanship. Playability can be found almost anywhere now. And why shouldn't it be? Production cues are copies of cues that were developed by custom makers and just mass produced.
What I see is the greatest advances in innovation will not be coming from custom cue makers but from the aftermarket. Since the popularity of the Predator, OB and Tiger shafts has taken hold, many custom cues are now serving as a fancy handle for aftermarket shafts, and this is not just marketing.
I predict the next wave of high tech shafts, ferrules, and tips is coming and they will be considerably better than the first generation. My prediction is they will combine all of the best traits of conventional shafts with the playing characteristics of LD shafts and will be very consistent, and eventually the improved hit will be embraced by some custom makers as well.
Chris
Tap! Tap! Tap!
Chris,you get big kudo's from me on this. With all the beauty of our legendary cuemakers being respected,the Billiards Industry is constantly being Innovated. Why shouldn't we benefit from the expanses in technology. We witnessed it with the pantograph,CNC,Laser,and others being developed. It is for our benefit that they do this. "Only Change is Permanent."plagairized from somebody,I'm not that smart!!:embarrassed2:
This is my cue. There are many like it, but this one is mine. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my cue is useless. Without my cue, I am useless. I must hit my cue true. I must shoot straighter than the enemy who is trying to take my money. I must pocket the game ball be for he pockets his. I will. My cue and I know that what counts in war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, or the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit. My cue is human, even as I am human, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strengths, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my cue clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. Before God I swear this creed. My cue and I are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life. So be it, until victory is America’s and there is no enemy