Darren Forfeits Beloit

[david(tx)]

all I know is that these big calcutas are a big part of these big money sports bar tournaments. There are not that many big backers or big calcuta betters around. If all that are involved in putting these great tournaments on don't quickly get cell #'s and where the last 5 or so are staying, these great tournaments will dry up quickly.

Also, Cory is doing nothing wrong breaking like he does at this time. Fix the rules, before this also kills these tournaments. Johnnyt

PS: If anyone is suspected of doing business, they must be banned quickly from playing in any more of them. I hope everyone involved in these type of tournaments fixes all problems NOW.

all I know is that these big calcutas are a big part of these big money sports bar tournaments. There are not that many big backers or big calcuta betters around. If all that are involved in putting these great tournaments on don't quickly get cell #'s and where the last 5 or so are staying, these great tournaments will dry up quickly.


Maybe they can take a percentage out of each calcutta players purchase price and have a bad beat jackpot for situations like this .:smile:

 

[sjm]

Darren owes nothing to anybody here. He made a mistake and I'm sure he's upset with himself. When you buy someone in the Calcutta, certain risks come with the territory and one of them is that the player won't show up to a match.

 

[terryhanna]

if the horse fails in the middle of the race, do you get your money back ?
Lol lmao rofl :grin-square::grin-square::grin-square::grin-square::grin-square:
Can someone tell me how much for 1st place in the calcutta ? Thanks.

..............

 

[Black-Balled]

Darren doesn't owe anyone who was in the calcutta anything. When you go in on a calcutta, you're not backing the player, you're gambling to win money for yourself. If he had any backers, that's different...

Technicall, you are right.

Ethically, he should though. You can't disagree it would be a classy move.

 

[sjm]

Technicall, you are right.

Ethically, he should though. You can't disagree it would be a classy move.

It would not be classy, but instead stupid. He has absolutely no accountability of any kind to those that purchased him.

Unless his no show was intentional, which seems inconceivable, there are no ethical issues here.

 

[KRJ]

If I got 8 large riding on him, I'm probably going to ask him the night before what he wants for breakfast, pick it up, pay for it, feed him in bed, and then have a super model give him a massage, but hey, that's just me

 

[justadub]

It would not be classy, but instead stupid. He has absolutely no accountability of any kind to those that purchased him.

Unless his no show was intentional, which seems inconceivable, there are no ethical issues here.

Darren doesn't get anything from the Calcutta (unless he buys into it), so he really isn't obligated to anyone involved in it.

I would assume that those who play these Calcutta's understand the risk. A shame when it goes down like this, but it is gambling, after all...

 

[jay helfert]

Appleton does not owe any Calcutta gamblers any money, any way you look at it. He should apologize to his fans for the unprofessional act of oversleeping a match, of course, but that's about the limit. Being human, he made a human mistake, and that's the end of it. He does not owe any Calcutta gamblers anything.

They guys who bought the Calcutta are gamblers who bet they will make money. If they want insurance to reimburse them when unforeseen human behaviors affect their win-loss ratio, they need to hire Lloyds of London.

I do certainly respect the OP as a veteran gambler, because he is not whining about his gambling loss, nor is he claiming anyone owes him anything. Betting on the uncertain outcome of an event is the very essence of gambling. Living with that uncertain outcome is the very essence of what makes a person a gambler, rather than some sort of a lock artist.

As for monies won, although Appleton's tournament winnings were $4k, his profit was probably about nil, taking into account his tournament (and ongoing) expenses. Using mythical profits to repay rail-side gamblers some money he never owed them in the first place just does not make sense.

The other factor is this - there was no guarantee Appleton would have qualified for the Calcutta even if he had arrived fresh and on time to play his Sunday morning match. Woodward was more than a 50% favorite, if his play since Darren's forfeit is any yardstick. Woodward over Appleton would have meant no Calcutta winnings at all for the gamblers who bought Appleton.

A payback to any rail-side gambler is a real slippery slope. Next thing is what about a payback because the pro missed a makeable shot, or miscued because he failed to chalk up? There are many less-that-professional behaviors a pro can exhibit which directly lead to loss of game or match. Oversleeping is just one of many. Even the OP described taking such behavior into account before he placed his bet on Appleton in the Calcutta.

There is not really much difference between flubbing the wakeup time and flubbing an easy shot. Both are foreseeable events which should not happen to a pro, expecially in a 16-player top-pro tournament with minimum $2k expense to hit their first ball. But such things do happen - review a certain easy side pocket shot missed by SVB in the Mosconi Cup, and check back at all the other forfeitures for late appearance in tournaments over the years.

Misses are not unlikely events at all, and failure to show up on time is not so rare either. An experienced TD like Jay Helfert may have witnessed all sorts of misses - including late appearances - probably as much or more than anyone else on the forum, at least.

The OP might reconsider his take on Calcutta gambling for the future. I would say place your bet on Appleton, believing he would never again oversleep, and would also be extra careful to avoid any other human failures he might anticipate.

Sorry, but I beg to differ with you Tex. I will agree that Darren does not "owe" anyone anything. But that does not mean he doesn't have any moral responsibility to make things right with them in some way. Just to say "I'm Sorry" doesn't really cut it here.

Among real gamblers there is a moral code, that allows them to loan money on a hand shake. Their word is their bond! And they know when they are wrong and need to do something to right it. In this instance Darren pretty obviously screwed up and it was potentially very costly to someone else besides just himself. This is not about a missed ball or anything like that, so please save that conversation for someone else. Missing a match is very different than missing a ball! Plus Darren was already guaranteed money back in the tournament, so he didn't come up empty, like the guys who bought him in the Calcutta. He was in position to offer them something.

The OP is a class act who doesn't whine about his losses and I respect him for that. Is he happy about what happened? Obviously not. He feels let down by Darren and well he should. Will Darren reach out to him I don't know. It's on his conscience, that's for sure. Stuff like this you don't just sweep under the rug and say tough luck. If you're a man you try to make it right somehow. And that somehow should include more than just an apology.

I know Darren will read this and be unhappy with me because I'm not the one involved. But if he (or anyone else) asked me what I think I will tell them. And I did right here!

 

[jay helfert]

Technicall, you are right.

Ethically, he should though. You can't disagree it would be a classy move.

Thank you, you get it!

 

[jay helfert]

It would not be classy, but instead stupid. He has absolutely no accountability of any kind to those that purchased him.

Unless his no show was intentional, which seems inconceivable, there are no ethical issues here.

Sorry Stu, this is one time I will have to disagree with you. Maybe it's because I'm kind of an old school gambler and know how we handled stuff like this. We did our best to make it right!

 

[jay helfert]

Yes, people oversleep all the time, including myself.

From time to time, I will schedule a 6:00am workout so that I can hit the gym before work, but I'm sorry to say that I oversleep quite a bit for this. Also, from time to time, I will schedule a 6:00am conference call with clients from Europe. But I'm happy to say that I have NEVER EVER overslept for this.

Why? because working out in the am is not a big deal. If I miss a workout, oh well. I can hit the gym in the afternoon or even skip a day...it's just not that important. On the other hand, my conference call is a big deal and very important. So whatever it takes, my ass get's out of bed in time to make the call.

So, when pool players like Darren oversleep in the semifinals of a $36k tournament, or when Justin Hall oversleeps his chance at winning Master of the Table at DCC, what message does this send?

In my opinion, the message is very loud and clear. That it's just not that important. And the fact is, they're 100% entitled to this opinion. Maybe the money's not enough, maybe it's too much effort, whatever. That's their choice to make.

However, if pool players aren't taking these events seriously, or treating them as if they're not a big deal? WHY IN THE WORLD SHOULD I? Why should I shell out my money buying PPV streams? Why should I take time out of my life to attend local events? And of course it goes without saying, why in the world would I put my money at risk in backing players or entering Calcuttas?

For that matter, why would anyone? Why would anyone be interested in watching a professional play pool, if they suspected the player of not treating it seriously. Simply put, if the players don't take the sport seriously, I consider myself a sucker to do otherwise.

THIS for anyone who thinks the OP doesn't really care about losing $4,900. I guarantee you that as a gambler all you want is a shot for your money. If you get that chance and lose, so be it. If you're denied that chance it won't sit well with you.

I once backed Keith in the Sands tournament. He was in the final four on the winners side and scheduled to play in the first round on the final day (I think it was at Noon). He was already guaranteed $2,000 but to make it to the hot seat match locked up $6,000, so there was a $4,000 swing on that match.

Needless to say Keith was a no show. Was I pissed? You better believe it. Drunk or sober he should have been there and he knew it. That was the last time I backed Keith in a tournament.

By the way he did show up in time for his loser's side match with Nick Varner. He knew he had to play that day and when he needed to be there. Like our OP said it just wasn't that important to him. Nick creamed him and that was it.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

If I got 8 large riding on him, I'm probably going to ask him the night before what he wants for breakfast, pick it up, pay for it, feed him in bed, and then have a super model give him a massage, but hey, that's just me

There is an extreme amount of wisdom here in this post.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

THIS for anyone who thinks the OP doesn't really care about losing $4,900. I guarantee you that as a gambler all you want is a shot for your money. If you get that chance and lose, so be it. If you're denied that chance it won't sit well with you.

I once backed Keith in the Sands tournament. He was in the final four on the winners side and scheduled to play in the first round on the final day (I think it was at Noon). He was already guaranteed $2,000 but to make it to the hot seat match locked up $6,000, so there was a $4,000 swing on that match.

Needless to say Keith was a no show. Was I pissed? You better believe it. Drunk or sober he should have been there and he knew it. That was the last time I backed Keith in a tournament.

By the way he did show up in time for his loser's side match with Nick Varner. He knew he had to play that day and when he needed to be there. Like our OP said it just wasn't that important to him. Nick creamed him and that was it.

Jay, back in the day, if you were backing a player heavy, wad there ever an effort to keep tabs on the player or get them to the tournaments on time? If not you, did you ever hear about gamblers going the extra mile in policing their horse?

Clearly before cell phones, it must have been nerve racking waiting for the player

 

[mikeyfrost]

If I got 8 large riding on him, I'm probably going to ask him the night before what he wants for breakfast, pick it up, pay for it, feed him in bed, and then have a super model give him a massage, but hey, that's just me

The sad truth most of us have to learn at some point is that if you take a risk on someone who doesn't know you well enough to feel accountability you are much better with your money in your pocket. I'd never walk up to someone I barely know or don't know at all and offer to stake them or anything else. I might make a side bet here and there but that's the max.

The only correct recourse here is to ban him from this event. Now it gets interesting though cause if he plays in another Calcutta event how do you handle it? If people don't trust him and he goes for cheap and starts snapping off these type of events that would smell bad. The industry should police itself though. Too many second and third chances and there is a lot of money in play.

Someone is going to get seriously hurt one of these times

 

[justadub]

Hypothetically, can a player ask that he not be included in the Calcutta, so that he is not beholden to anyone?

 

[liakos]

This is regarding the big money $2,000 entry, 16 man 8 ball event being held in Beloit, WI this weekend at Dave Cole's Carom Room.

Darren had eliminated Jesse Bowman 15-14 last night to guarantee himself 4th place. He was scheduled to play Sky Woodward on the loser's side for 3rd place this morning at 10:00am. Darren failed to show for his match and at the conclusion of the SVB/Corey match, it was announced on the stream that Darren had forfeited with no further explanation given. The following post by Lee Brett (in another thread) summarizes what happened.

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"Sky won on a forfeit, Darren overslept and Sky's backers asked for him to be forfeited."
- Lee Brett
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It turns out that there were several attempts made -by the Carom Room staff- to find, wake, and notify Darren prior to his match this morning. And finally, only after stumbling across an old text that contained the name of a nearby hotel, were they able to contact the hotel and reach Darren - asleep in his room. It was 10:20am - 20 minutes after the match was supposed to begin.

Unfortunately, the people who were financially invested in Sky felt that a forfeit was the only correct call.


All I can say is Wow!

Before I proceed, I would like to make it very clear that my interest in this spectacle is not merely as a spectator or fan. I (along with another individual) had purchased Darren in the Calcutta for $4,900.

Funny as it sounds, one of the principle reasons why we chose to buy Darren (beyond his eight ball expertise, and superb pool playing skills) was the degree of professionalism Darren has always exhibited on and around a pool table. Every time I've watched Darren play (Mosconi Cup, US Open, Chinese 8 Ball, etc...) I've been very impressed with the way he has carried himself. Furthermore, when I've listened to him on American Billiards Radio, I've been equally impressed with his insights and intelligence. In Short, Darren had always personified the best of pool, and represented everything that this sport can and should aspire towards.

So when thrown into a tournament filled with absolute killers (Shane, Dennis, Corey, Sky, Justin, Kiamco, Morra, etc...) I felt lucky to place the winning bid on Darren. Why? because I felt that it would take much more than just pool skills alone to win this tournament. It would take will, drive, and most of all character to best this field. All traits that I thought Darren carried in spades.

So to find out that oversleeping was what kept Darren from playing his match this morning -a match that still carried with it the possibility of winning a 16,000 first prize- I am bewildered and disappointed.

Let me be very clear, am I upset about being out $2,450? (my half of the calcutta - No, Darren did not buy half of himself), of course I am. But, I'll be ok.

However, I will seriously reconsider what involvment -if any- I ever have again with pro pool as either a backer, spectator, or stream viewer.

Will I ever participate in another calcutta again? NEVER - FU**ING - EVER! Fool me once... To put it bluntly, I think it will be a long time before I put any of my money back into the pro pool economy.

That totally sucks! I applaud you for your calmness! I got involved with backing some players for a very short time, 2 to be exact! I was asked to back a player and I did so he lost that set and I was bust but he found a couple more backers for the next 2 sets and he won those,,,, well they won, I lost!

That didn't sit too well with me and I asked a couple people and they said technically, your out! But the player should of gave you a cut. Anyway, I got drawn into it again a couple weeks later and I said no thanks but got talked into it because it sounded good boy was I wrong!! I don't back anyone, I don't partner with anyone, and I don't gamble unless it's me playing with my money!!! Period!!!

As far as Darren goes, I'm sure by the book he technically owes you nothing! BUT,,,,, if he's a man about his actions,, he should at least give half the money of the total purchase! That's just me, and I'm sure other people say the same!(btw, I haven't read anything yet, so I'll start after I post this)

P.S. again sorry for the unfortunate situation !

 

[JCIN]

I agree, Darren should make good somehow with the people who bought him in the Calcutta (he did win $4,000 in the tournament, so he won't go home empty), at least pay them back half since he was 50-50 to win the match with Skyler. He owes them something any way you look at it.

This makes no sense to me. Why should any player make up anything to someone who bets on them? Players get nothing when a side better wins on them why should they be forced to feel obligated to cover a loss?

Now if a player has a backer and they are in a calcutta sure I can see a case being made. But Darren had no part of himself in this. He literally had nothing to do with the calcutta as far as I know. If Daz has to pay the calcutta guys does he have to pay everyone who bought the stream too?

This situation is but one reason big money calcutta's are just a bad idea as far as I am concerned. Someone always goes away pissed off. A buyer because a player didnt do something, a player because he didnt get any jelly the list goes on and on.

I guarantee you Darren feels bad about this. I would bet it borders on physically ill. He won $4K for fourth. The entry was $2K. Plus travel. The idea he is supposed to pony up money to cover a calcutta or anyone else is nuts.

 

[JCIN]

THIS for anyone who thinks the OP doesn't really care about losing $4,900. I guarantee you that as a gambler all you want is a shot for your money. If you get that chance and lose, so be it. If you're denied that chance it won't sit well with you.

I once backed Keith in the Sands tournament. He was in the final four on the winners side and scheduled to play in the first round on the final day (I think it was at Noon). He was already guaranteed $2,000 but to make it to the hot seat match locked up $6,000, so there was a $4,000 swing on that match.

Needless to say Keith was a no show. Was I pissed? You better believe it. Drunk or sober he should have been there and he knew it. That was the last time I backed Keith in a tournament.

By the way he did show up in time for his loser's side match with Nick Varner. He knew he had to play that day and when he needed to be there. Like our OP said it just wasn't that important to him. Nick creamed him and that was it.

Darren didnt ask anyone to back him. He got nothing from the calcutta.

It would be like me betting on you in a last longer bet in the World Series with my buddy. You get nothing either way. You sleep in and blind off. Do you owe me money?

 

[Island Drive]

Darren owes nothing to anybody here. He made a mistake and I'm sure he's upset with himself. When you buy someone in the Calcutta, certain risks come with the territory and one of them is that the player won't show up to a match.

One's true integrity only has one barrel in life. I can't imagine a player of his character, and background who has the respect of players all over the planet, to NOT be concerned and hurt by his miscue. The amount of effort he puts into each match play is extremely draining compared to Gamblers. He manages his time like a true Thoroughbred, and being in this type of arena and time format is like a racehorse that always runs on grass, to try to win in the dirt....he's not a twenty one year old and physically bulletproof. Great players know the best drug of all is SLEEP. Oh yeah I played in an event yesterday as Player number 127 on a 128 board, slept poorly.........VERY poorly the night before, and arrived at ten am, played my first match at seven thirty pm, my second match at eleven pm my third around midnight, then if I would of won that match I would of finished in the money by two thirty am. I didn't care anymore, nothing in the tank. And if I did win, I had a forty minute drive home and would of had to play the same morning, today at 10 am, with another forty minute drive back. That format and this format he's in at the Carom room is for youth, it appears he found that out, the hard way.

 

[JCIN]

The sad truth most of us have to learn at some point is that if you take a risk on someone who doesn't know you well enough to feel accountability you are much better with your money in your pocket. I'd never walk up to someone I barely know or don't know at all and offer to stake them or anything else. I might make a side bet here and there but that's the max.

The only correct recourse here is to ban him from this event. Now it gets interesting though cause if he plays in another Calcutta event how do you handle it? If people don't trust him and he goes for cheap and starts snapping off these type of events that would smell bad. The industry should police itself though. Too many second and third chances and there is a lot of money in play.

Someone is going to get seriously hurt one of these times

If you are talking about physically I think not. Whens the last time a player ever got hurt bad over something like this? Not Little Wonky down the pool room either but a name player. People like to talk some shit but nothing ever happens. Absolute worst case is a black eye. Way more guys have been knocked out over saying something stupid in the bar than any mythical gambler revenge.