Deflection useful?

[BigDaddyInc.]

Im not looking to bash ld shafts just a question. Does anyone besides me find that deflection of the cue shaft can be kinda useful after you get used to it? I been playing with the same cue for years and it is not an ld shaft. Just a standard mcdermott shaft. I tried a predator yrs ago and just could not get the hang of it at all the hit was so stiff and flat.

My standard shaft is springy and lively now when the cueball squirts or deflects to the left when using right hand english in my mind it comes at the object ball at a slight angle and in my mind that gives me more oppurtunity to create more angle on a shot if need be.

But with an ld shaft supposedly if i use right hand english i shouldnt have to compensate so therfore the cb is coming straight at the object ball and all i have to get me where i want to go is the english to where as i could create a little more angle with the use of squirt or deflection. Basically with a standard shaft left or right hand english creates a light masse which is a curve and i believe this curve gives me more options on certain shots.

Does this make any sense to anyone? Or am i over anilyzing? I want to figure this out because i would honesly like to purchase a ld shaft like an I-shaft only because of the consistancy and the ld shafts have a better chance of not warping. I wish i could get the qualities of an LD shaft without the LD if that makes any sense.

 

[the420trooper]

You're definitely right about the slight curve shot being easier with standard shafts, because they allow to the ball to scoot to the side of the shot line and curve back into it.

On the other hand, jacked up shots are WAY easier with LD shafts because they don't flex, so the ball won't curve as much.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Does anyone besides me find that deflection of the cue shaft can be kinda useful after you get used to it?

You're not the first to think so.

...when the cueball squirts or deflects to the left when using right hand english in my mind it comes at the object ball at a slight angle and in my mind that gives me more oppurtunity to create more angle on a shot if need be.
...
i could create a little more angle with the use of squirt or deflection.

You don't need squirt for that. You can do the same thing by simply aiming at a little more angle.

Basically with a standard shaft left or right hand english creates a light masse which is a curve and i believe this curve gives me more options on certain shots.

You can get exactly the same curve with any shaft.

I wish i could get the qualities of an LD shaft without the LD if that makes any sense.

There are no special qualities of an LD shaft except the LD.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You're definitely right about the slight curve shot being easier with standard shafts, because they allow to the ball to scoot to the side of the shot line and curve back into it.

You can simply aim a little more to the side with an LD shaft and do exactly the same thing.

On the other hand, jacked up shots are WAY easier with LD shafts because they don't flex, so the ball won't curve as much.

LD shafts do flex. And whether or not a shaft flexes has nothing to do with how much the ball curves.

pj
chgo

 

[RRfireblade]

IMO the difference in deflection between a good 'standard' shaft and a marketed LD shaft is waayyy over rated.

Some make it sound like you can't miss with an LD shaft and its a wonder you ever make a ball with a normal shaft.

I've been back playing with an LD shaft for the last month or so after probably a 3/4 year period of not. Honeslty its such a subtle difference its surprising to me how much discussion there is over it.

Outside of the psychology involved, I don't see anything you can't do with either shaft.

 

[the420trooper]

LD shafts do flex. And whether or not a shaft flexes has nothing to do with how much the ball curves.

pj
chgo

Yep, I should have said " don't flex as much" because they're low-d, not no-d.

I don't need to know why it happens, I'm just observing what I see.

 

[BigDaddyInc.]

Ya'll are prolly right im just over thinking and i admit the marketing of the ld's has skewed my perception a bit. I really want to try the I-3 shaft from mcdermott i need a new shaft bad mine is warped and it still hits great just messes with my head so much when i see the slight warp when im down shooting i don't need that distraction i have enough going on so one less distraction would be great!

 

[iusedtoberich]

IMO the difference in deflection between a good 'standard' shaft and a marketed LD shaft is waayyy over rated.

Some make it sound like you can't miss with an LD shaft and its a wonder you ever make a ball with a normal shaft.

I've been back playing with an LD shaft for the last month or so after probably a 3/4 year period of not. Honeslty its such a subtle difference its surprising to me how much discussion there is over it.

Outside of the psychology involved, I don't see anything you can't do with either shaft.

I'm one of the players who can't make a freaking ball with a conventional shaft. They are night and day different in aim required compared to a LD shaft. Its a HUGE difference to me. Your perception, and mine, are at the opposite ends. And I've seen plenty of people post comments similar to both of ours. I wonder why this is? Is it a visual perception thing? Patrick, do you have any insight into this?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

RRfireblade:
IMO the difference in deflection between a good 'standard' shaft and a marketed LD shaft is waayyy over rated.

Some make it sound like you can't miss with an LD shaft and its a wonder you ever make a ball with a normal shaft.

I've been back playing with an LD shaft for the last month or so after probably a 3/4 year period of not. Honeslty its such a subtle difference its surprising to me how much discussion there is over it.

Outside of the psychology involved, I don't see anything you can't do with either shaft.

iusedtoberich:
I'm one of the players who can't make a freaking ball with a conventional shaft. They are night and day different in aim required compared to a LD shaft. Its a HUGE difference to me. Your perception, and mine, are at the opposite ends. And I've seen plenty of people post comments similar to both of ours. I wonder why this is? Is it a visual perception thing? Patrick, do you have any insight into this?

It may be a matter of degree. There are clearly real and significant differences between high-squirt and low-squirt shafts, but maybe not so much between medium-high and medium-low. More shafts call themselves LD now than really deserve to.

I think psychology can work both ways: it can make you see differences that aren't there and miss differences that are there.

I agree there's nothing you can do with one shaft that you can't do with the other.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

Im not looking to bash ld shafts just a question. Does anyone besides me find that deflection of the cue shaft can be kinda useful after you get used to it?
...
Basically with a standard shaft left or right hand english creates a light masse which is a curve and i believe this curve gives me more options on certain shots.
...
Does this make any sense to anyone?
...
I wish i could get the qualities of an LD shaft without the LD if that makes any sense.

LD shafts have both advantages and disadvantages. However, if you spend time with an LD shaft and learn how to compensate for the lesser squirt, an LD shaft can offer a slight advantage. For more info, see my December '07 BD article on this topic.

As PJ pointed out, swerve really has nothing to do directly with the type of shaft. LD shafts have less endmass and produce less squirt (AKA "cue ball deflection"). That's the only "quality" that is common to LD shafts. Depending on the tip, ferrule, taper, joint, butt, etc., the "hit," "feel," and "playability" can be different from one shaft to another, but these things are mostly independent of the small differences in squirt among LD and non-LD shafts.

I hope that makes some sense,
Dave

 

[RRfireblade]

I'm one of the players who can't make a freaking ball with a conventional shaft. They are night and day different in aim required compared to a LD shaft. Its a HUGE difference to me. Your perception, and mine, are at the opposite ends. And I've seen plenty of people post comments similar to both of ours. I wonder why this is? Is it a visual perception thing? Patrick, do you have any insight into this?

IDK. I do mean a 'good' quality wood shaft as I know there are tons of crappy wood shafts out there that are probably detrimental to anyones game. And you'd have to compare like specs I would think, not 13mm conical VS "LD".

My standard wood shafts are 12.25 with about 15" of parallel taper and altho I use ivory ferrules, the balance points between my favorite wood shafts and the OB and Preds that I've been messing with lately are only about 1" or so (+/-) different.

Which leads to be believe end mass may not be so drastically different either. So perhaps my wood shafts are better than 'average' ? IDK but I was quite surprised when I pulled out the LD shafts I have, just for grins, and didn't hardly see a difference. I mean there is one but it took like 30 mins of shooting to dial it in at most. Only reason I haven't gone back to wood is cause I cleaned them all up and re-sealed them and thier so dang pretty I dont want to get them dirty now.

 

[LAlouie]

Deflection shmeflection.
All you require is consistency from your cue. It's not like Mosconi worried about deflection. All 3C players play with deflection. They're not looking to replace their cues with Predators.

 

[genomachino]

He had no choice?

Deflection shmeflection.
All you require is consistency from your cue. It's not like Mosconi worried about deflection. All 3C players play with deflection. They're not looking to replace their cues with Predators.

That's pretty obvious..................it wasn't available then......if it was I'll bet he used one for sure.

And he did worry about deflection. If he didn't he would have missed alot.

With a LD shaft you still have to worry about it. Just not as much as in less.

Lower level players might not even know the difference as they don't even know why they miss. Once they learn exactly how it works they can adjust their aim resulting in less missed shots.

 

[dr_dave]

Deflection shmeflection.
All you require is consistency from your cue. It's not like Mosconi worried about deflection. All 3C players play with deflection. They're not looking to replace their cues with Predators.

That's pretty obvious..................it wasn't available then......if it was I'll bet he used one for sure.

And he did worry about deflection. If he didn't he would have missed alot.

With a LD shaft you still have to worry about it. Just not as much as in less.

Lower level players might not even know the difference as they don't even know why they miss. Once they learn exactly how it works they can adjust their aim resulting in less missed shots.

Excellent post, Geno. I agree 100%.

Regards,
Dave

 

[LAMas]

"....I wish i could get the qualities of an LD shaft without the LD if that makes any sense."

So who makes a non warping segmented laminated shaft that isn't LD?

 

[CreeDo]

Overthinking it BD =)

Deflection might cause the object ball to overcut a ball a hair (altering where the CB goes), but you can get the same thing by just aiming to cut a hair thinner. And there will be times when you don't want that overcut or undercut, and it's really important to just make the ball, yet still have full spin.

Do you really want to worry about whether you're using medium sidespin or heavy side, and going into mental gymnastics like "ok, I'm using medium left, so that shouldn't cause me to overcut... or will it? Should I hit a little full just to be sure? But what if I hit full and undercompensate for deflection and I just plain miss? Or hit fuller than I wanted and don't get shape?"

...it's so much easier to just aim where you want the ball to go.

I also wouldn't buy a cue based on 'consistency' because that's mostly up the player. A broom handle can be consistent if you shoot with it for 20 years. Your own personal consistency is gonna go down for a little while, as you adjust to the new shaft. So don't buy it thinking you'll turn 70% shots into 90% shots. For the next six months they're gonna be 50% shots and eventually you'll reach 70% again. Going past that is up to the shooter and not the stick.

As far as warpage, I think most cues won't warp unless you're really unlucky or just treat them badly. Try not to use the shaft to stir the spaghetti.

 

[porper-sig]

IMO the difference in deflection between a good 'standard' shaft and a marketed LD shaft is waayyy over rated.

Some make it sound like you can't miss with an LD shaft and its a wonder you ever make a ball with a normal shaft.

I've been back playing with an LD shaft for the last month or so after probably a 3/4 year period of not. Honeslty its such a subtle difference its surprising to me how much discussion there is over it.

Outside of the psychology involved, I don't see anything you can't do with either shaft.

All true.. Some will just not let it go.

 

[jgobigred]

Pfffft......what goods a shaft if you can't stir spaghetti with it?

 

[Rod]

Well you can't compare a lemon to a lime, they both squirt but the lime squirts far less. :grin: Same goes for shafts, if you compare a 12mm std shaft with a 12mm LD they may be similar. When people give their opinion sometimes they neglect, or you do to take that into consideration. Same goes for shaft construction, some LD's are not very LD, just marketing hype.

To the OP I prefer an LD with more squirt. Its far less than my stock shaft but not as LD as a Predator or OB & fits my style of play. As far as stiffness a 314 has a little more taper than a straight pro taper so its not stiff. My LD is stiff compared to a 314. So before you compare be aware that shaft specs makes a difference. The shaft & tip is a way to fine tune your game. As with most feel things you need time to adjust.

Rod

 

[Bob Jewett]

There is one shot that (I think) Fred Agnir pointed out that may benefit from a high-squirt shaft. That is when the cue ball is close to the object ball and you use inside side spin to avoid the double hit. The higher squirt helps get the cue ball out of the way of the stick coming through. I don't know whether this has been analyzed but in a brief test it did seem to be a useful effect.