"Diamondizing" A Table Thread

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Ok, I've read about diamondizing a table in another thread to a small degree. But since i've already got one of the ultimate tables - that being a Gold Crown IV - it got me to thinking about some things. So, i thought i'd start a discussion of this topic. here goes......

1) Why would i want to change a Gold Crown when tons and tons of major championships were played on it for 30+ years and its still considered either the best or 2nd best table out there?

Diamond tables have been taking over the tournaments here in the US for many years now, just look at every major tournament held here and ask yourself which tables are being played on. I'm not knocking Brunswick...but Brunswick has failed to evolve with the stricter demands of the pool players today, so much so that they didn't even come out with a tighter pocket by extending the sub-rails until the GC5...and even then it's set at 4 9/16" openings. The GC4 tournament edition used thicker facings in an attempt to tighten the pockets. My buddy Mark Gregory is the table mechanic that designed the GC5 pockets for Brunswick...so I know what I'm talking about here. What somebody did in the past, has nothing to do with what they're doing today. Brunswick LET Diamond get into business 25 years ago...by doing nothing to make their tables play better, in order to stop Diamond from trying to make a better playing table, that's Brunswick's bad business decisions...not Diamond's. This is the very reason Brunswick's resale value is so low, and why Diamond's is so high...it's called customer demand, the more something is wanted...the more it's going to cost. Ever tried looking for a used Diamond 9ft ProAm?...you'll come across 1,000 GC's before one ProAm, and if you FIND that ProAm....it's not going to be priced cheap like a GC.


2) What would be done to a Gold Crown IV if it were diamondized?

First of all, the rails would have to be calibrated to have the exact same thickness at the top edge of the sub-rail where the cushions line up at the down angle bevel, as different thickness rails are going to give you different nose heights of the cushions. I'm not going to give exact numbers, but there is an exact sub-rail thickness that is needed in order to align body of the cushion in proportion to the nose of the cushion when the nose height is set at 1 7/16"...and Brunswick rails are missing the sub-rail thickness mark by a mile, which effects the play of the cushions and the alignment of the nose of the cushions.

Then the cushions would have to be replaced with the Artemis Intercontinental K55 cushions, because these are the only cushions made that'll cross breed the table with the banking of a billiards table...with pockets. I can not describe how a table plays when this is done right....other than to call it a billiards table with pockets....it's something you have to see for yourself.

Then the pocket miters have to be corrected to 141 degrees, because with the 4 1/2" pockets, you want the pocket angles to deflect the balls being pocketed at pocket speed a little deeper in the jaws of the pocket instead of rattling the balls out if they're hit good. Some people would believe that making the pocket angles parallel to each other then tightening the pockets to 4" makes them play harder...wrong answer, as all that does is make the target smaller...but have a straight hallway so to speak for the balls to shoot right through, meaning either you're in...or your out....because there is no rattle of the pocket...so in that case, you have to focus all your attention on the smaller target if you don't want to miss the shot...and shoot your next shot basically from where you land the cue ball....because to combine position play with 4" pockets...is a stroke of luck in most cases.


3) What are the costs? how long does it take? can it be done at my home?

Depending on the rails and the condition they're in, plus cushions, cloth, leveling the slates...and fixing any thing else that can be fixed...like the frame rails on your GC4 from sagging...in the neighbor hood of about $1,500 to $2,000. It can take anywhere from 2 days...to a week, and yes...I always do my work at the customers home.

4) Does diamondizing a Gold Crown IV actually make it play better? or just play different?

Better and different....wouldn't that be about the same, because if the table played better than any table you've ever played on...wouldn't that be different?

Glen
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I said that Worst was the only cross over.....a member thumped my head and reminded me about Allison Fischer

This is true, but oddly enough no men......I'm sure this is a money issue but when the top snooker players play the top pool players in pool they usually get thumped and vice versa.

Diff equip, diff skill set.

BUT...Allison Fisher would have never beaten Steve Davis either...playing snooker...I mean, being a female world snooker champion is not the same thingas winning the "world" snooker championship...unless you beat all the world class snooker players, kind of like Allison trying to win the US Open...against all the men that entered...and come out on top:grin:

Glen
 

u12armresl

One Pocket back cutter
Silver Member
It was me who said that I has someone who would play him, but it wasn't meant to happen as Jesse needed to play around his area, wanted it to be streamed, and also wouldn't play the game that this guy wanted to play. No big deal, he is a good player, one of the best.

As far as the no way to argue the point, yes there is. The experiment can take place in a hall with both diamonds and GC's, but it wont be overnight results, sorry.
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
BUT...Allison Fisher would have never beaten Steve Davis either...playing snooker...I mean, being a female world snooker champion is not the same thingas winning the "world" snooker championship...unless you beat all the world class snooker players, kind of like Allison trying to win the US Open...against all the men that entered...and come out on top:grin:

Glen

Tho I agree, I just wasn't trying to go that far into it and start some gender flame war lmfao
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
He'd sure like you to believe that.

There are plenty of table people who don't come on forums who do incredible work.

Did you just fart?...cus I could have sworn I just heard you say something that sounded like a fart coming out of your mouth. Your problem is that you live on a very small island buddy...and you have no real idea as to what's going on around you. I travel from coast to coast, from poolroom to poolroom....bar to bar...and from home to home, delivering pool tables, working on pool tables...and teaching other table mechanics how to improve their skills. I've lived overseas for YEARS....and was a player long before becoming a table mechanic. I get PM's from all around the world about how to fix pool tables...how to make tables play better...and job offers to move to other countries...and go to work designing pool tables for other table manufactures to build a table for "them" to compete with the Brunswick GC5 and Diamond's ProAm. I've seen the work of at least 10,000 other table mechanic's in the last 30 years...and YOU....who knows shit about this kind of work.......sitting back behind your computer screen...are going to tell me there are "PLENTY" of other table mechanic's out here that do the kind of work that I do????????....Holy shit man....NAME ONE...big mouth...that I haven't already trained!!!!

Glen
 
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realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
It was me who said that I has someone who would play him, but it wasn't meant to happen as Jesse needed to play around his area, wanted it to be streamed, and also wouldn't play the game that this guy wanted to play. No big deal, he is a good player, one of the best.

As far as the no way to argue the point, yes there is. The experiment can take place in a hall with both diamonds and GC's, but it wont be overnight results, sorry.

I'll tell you what, you go out and find the BEST table mechanic you know...put $10,000 on your man/woman...and I'll pick the worst GC1's in use today...and lets get it on buddy, because if your man/woman can fix them better than I can...they've got me beat on every table out here...so when do you want to do this...because the tables are in Cali...just waiting, in fact....I know who worked on them last, because they have K66 cushions on them:grin:

in fact, they kind of look like this.....

Before (4).JPG

Before (5).JPG

Chris Cross Brunswick Billiards table 017 - Copy.JPG
 
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Dartman

Well-known member
Silver Member
There are plenty of table people who don't come on forums who do incredible work.

Name one -
that has the knowledge and ability to change a table to perfect metrics for optimum and "consistent" play.
I do agree there are plenty of non-forum table people that do incredible "standard" work.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
...Diamond tables have been taking over the tournaments here in the US for many years now, just look at every major tournament held here and ask yourself which tables are being played on. ...
Glen

But isn't that because Diamond actively- and agressively- pursued having their tables used in the Majors with the goal being a shortcut to acceptance of being "the players' table"?

Not saying that is a goal that can be achieved without delivering on the quality, but I don't recall USOpen/ DCC seeking Diamond out.

I think Diamonds are used more than GCs in big events today coz:
Brunswick didn't think it needed to/ didn't want to keep its tourney customers;
Diamond wanted the credibility associated with major events;
Diamond has a quality product to offer;
Brunswick has no 7' pro level table.
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
But isn't that because Diamond actively- and agressively- pursued having their tables used in the Majors with the goal being a shortcut to acceptance of being "the players' table"?

Not saying that is a goal that can be achieved without delivering on the quality, but I don't recall USOpen/ DCC seeking Diamond out.

I think Diamonds are used more than GCs in big events today coz:
Brunswick didn't think it needed to/ didn't want to keep its tourney customers;
Diamond wanted the credibility associated with major events;
Diamond has a quality product to offer;
Brunswick has no 7' pro level table.


You forgot transportation and setup......that I'm sure has alot to do with it also.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
But isn't that because Diamond actively- and agressively- pursued having their tables used in the Majors with the goal being a shortcut to acceptance of being "the players' table"?

Not saying that is a goal that can be achieved without delivering on the quality, but I don't recall USOpen/ DCC seeking Diamond out.

I think Diamonds are used more than GCs in big events today coz:
Brunswick didn't think it needed to/ didn't want to keep its tourney customers;
Diamond wanted the credibility associated with major events;
Diamond has a quality product to offer;
Brunswick has no 7' pro level table.

naaa...what you have to understand about Diamond...and Greg...is that unlike all the other table manufactures...Diamond is ready, willing, and able to put their money where their mouth is...meaning...put up a great playing table to support pool....or sit on the sidelines and do nothing, which is what most all table manufactures do...sit on the sidelines...because all they do is sell pool tables...they don't actually do anything to help support this sport....because they figure...why should they....they're going to sell tables anyway....so...let Diamond tables support the tournaments...we don't care!
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
WOw- this is all f'd up. How do quotes keep getting attributed to the person that is quoting?!?

I am RKC. Paypal me all your money now and I'll put you on the list next! :haha:
naaa...what you have to understand about Diamond...and Greg...is that unlike all the other table manufactures...Diamond is ready, willing, and able to put their money where their mouth is...meaning...put up a great playing table to support pool....or sit on the sidelines and do nothing, which is what most all table manufactures do...sit on the sidelines...because all they do is sell pool tables...they don't actually do anything to help support this sport....because they figure...why should they....they're going to sell tables anyway....so...let Diamond tables support the tournaments...we don't care!

Hay!@ You are quoting yourself?! Weird...:confused:
I think I had tat covered:
Brunswick didn't think it needed to/ didn't want to keep its tourney customers;
Diamond wanted the credibility associated with major events;
Diamond has a quality product to offer;
Brunswick has no 7' pro level table.

And of course there is the win-win for promoters and Greg...
 
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DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
speaking of the U.S. Open/Diamond connection......

someone correct me if i am wrong but i thought the contract between Brunswick and the U.S. Open/Barry Behrman expired and Brunswick didnt want to renew it because of Barry having to serve time in jail? Brunswick didnt want to be associated with any tournament whose chairman was in jail so they didnt want to come back. and the U.S. Open chose Diamond as the replacement.

is that right or wrong?

Mike
 

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
No table plays perfect from the factory...

If Brunswick built the perfect table...then I shouldn't be able to take a brand new GC5 and make it play even better than it does new...right? Well, not only can I...but I have...so when you're talking about a "Perfect" table...then find one that IS perfect first...because not even a Brunswick GC is perfect straight off the production line;) Even a new GC has inconsistencies that effect the overall play of the table...pockets and all;)

Glen

PS. It's not about making a table play harder...that's where you all have it wrong...it's all about making the table play consistent with shots being played...balls being pocketed. If they're shot right...they should go in, if not...they're rejected. If Brunswick built the perfect table...then ALL Brunswick GC's would play the exact same...but, I'm here to tell you they don't. You can buy 10 new GC5's...and they won't all play the same...how come that is...if it's a perfect table?

Especially if you consider a pocket rejecting a perfectly aimed and struck ball as a prerequisite as being imperfect.

Hell Diamonds are the worst at that.

The deep shelves and facing angles make it reject shallow angle hard hit shots that go as perfect into the pocket as possible.

I would say that the table at Dave's place that you did with the 4" pockets is actually BETTER at accepting hard hit narrow angle shots than a typical diamond.

Jaden
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
speaking of the U.S. Open/Diamond connection......

someone correct me if i am wrong but i thought the contract between Brunswick and the U.S. Open/Barry Behrman expired and Brunswick didnt want to renew it because of Barry having to serve time in jail? Brunswick didnt want to be associated with any tournament whose chairman was in jail so they didnt want to come back. and the U.S. Open chose Diamond as the replacement.

is that right or wrong?

Mike

hmmm...I wonder who when to jail from the WPBA in that made Brunswick drop the womens Pro Tour so that Diamond could pick it up as the official table sponsor:grin:
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Especially if you consider a pocket rejecting a perfectly aimed and struck ball as a prerequisite as being imperfect.

Hell Diamonds are the worst at that.

The deep shelves and facing angles make it reject shallow angle hard hit shots that go as perfect into the pocket as possible.

I would say that the table at Dave's place that you did with the 4" pockets is actually BETTER at accepting hard hit narrow angle shots than a typical diamond.

Jaden

There's a little more to it than that, but glancing off a side rail cushion now on the way to a corner pocket don't have near the effect it use to have in rejecting balls from the pocket...you'd have to play on one of the newer tables to see what I mean:grin: they were used in the US Open:grin:
 

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
I'm not talking about glancing off of a side rail...

There's a little more to it than that, but glancing off a side rail cushion now on the way to a corner pocket don't have near the effect it use to have in rejecting balls from the pocket...you'd have to play on one of the newer tables to see what I mean:grin: they were used in the US Open:grin:

I'm talking about a shallow angle shot that hits the heart of the pocket rattling out, and it DOES happen, all too often on a diamond. The combination of the facing angle with the deep shelves cause it.

It didn't happen as often on that table at dave's place as I've noticed on other diamonds I've played on.

Jaden
 

DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i've been watching some of the YouTube videos from the U.S. Open for the last few years. If Diamond tables/pockets wont accept balls all i can say is that it sure seems like some of those shots are finding the bottom that i didnt think would. then again, i am sure the new/slick cloth also plays into that as well.

Mike
 
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