"Diamondizing" A Table Thread
- Thread starter DrCue'sProtege
- Start date
Chinese Made Crap
Just for the records, just because China is part of Asia, don't confuse it with Japan, that makes high quality stuff, including pool cues.
China's most recent problems:
1. Toothpased laced with a less expense ingredient that was toxic.
2. Toy Trains (Thomas the Tank) made with good old fashioned lead !!
3. Dog food - tained with toxic ingredients that cause a slow and incredibily painful death for hundreds of dogs in the U.S.
4. Childrens toys - Yeah, more lead stuff......not very good for kids to be exposed to lead let alone putting it in their little mouths...
5. Hair dryers that catch on fire.
6. Bikes - frames cracking in half while being ridden. DId this ever happen when we were kids??
7. Candles - starting fires when cheap plastics melted and/or caught fire.
8. Lamps - burned down numerous homes.
9. Milk - that was laced with melamine that killed dozens of children in China. The two executives of the milk company were executed within weeks of the "mishap".......Google the "milk" episode for the full story.
10. Anyone hear of "Chinese Drywall ?? People had to take 2nd mortagage to repair their homes due to this crap that got installed in many homes during recent catastrophes....as well as new homes being build with it in the South where drywall was in high demand.
I could keep going, but you get the point. The Chinese will do whatever it takes to cut corners...it is how business works there. My wifes company manufactures there and is a nightmare.... They finally had to send a US rep there to live permanently because they will take the money,but as soon as you leave will immediatly starting using inferior parts to build what there are suppose to build. Poor guy doesn't speak one word of Mandarin, but he inspects every freakin part brought into the factory !!!!! I was skeptic about this, I said they are going to send that guy home in a body bag, but I'm glad I was wrong on that one !!!
Japan once had a very poor reputation for "cheap" quality, though I don't belive any children or pets were killed in the process, they sooned learned quality did pay off in the long run. China is not even close in turning their backwards way of thinking on quality control around !!!
Just for the records, just because China is part of Asia, don't confuse it with Japan, that makes high quality stuff, including pool cues.
China's most recent problems:
1. Toothpased laced with a less expense ingredient that was toxic.
2. Toy Trains (Thomas the Tank) made with good old fashioned lead !!
3. Dog food - tained with toxic ingredients that cause a slow and incredibily painful death for hundreds of dogs in the U.S.
4. Childrens toys - Yeah, more lead stuff......not very good for kids to be exposed to lead let alone putting it in their little mouths...
5. Hair dryers that catch on fire.
6. Bikes - frames cracking in half while being ridden. DId this ever happen when we were kids??
7. Candles - starting fires when cheap plastics melted and/or caught fire.
8. Lamps - burned down numerous homes.
9. Milk - that was laced with melamine that killed dozens of children in China. The two executives of the milk company were executed within weeks of the "mishap".......Google the "milk" episode for the full story.
10. Anyone hear of "Chinese Drywall ?? People had to take 2nd mortagage to repair their homes due to this crap that got installed in many homes during recent catastrophes....as well as new homes being build with it in the South where drywall was in high demand.
I could keep going, but you get the point. The Chinese will do whatever it takes to cut corners...it is how business works there. My wifes company manufactures there and is a nightmare.... They finally had to send a US rep there to live permanently because they will take the money,but as soon as you leave will immediatly starting using inferior parts to build what there are suppose to build. Poor guy doesn't speak one word of Mandarin, but he inspects every freakin part brought into the factory !!!!! I was skeptic about this, I said they are going to send that guy home in a body bag, but I'm glad I was wrong on that one !!!
Japan once had a very poor reputation for "cheap" quality, though I don't belive any children or pets were killed in the process, they sooned learned quality did pay off in the long run. China is not even close in turning their backwards way of thinking on quality control around !!!
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Hmmm
Thanks Fatboy..... Your above post was a great follow up.... amazing how productions and quality costs dropped but the price stayed the same and some cases went up......
Thanks Fatboy..... Your above post was a great follow up.... amazing how productions and quality costs dropped but the price stayed the same and some cases went up......
Super bouncy rails are also not a good thing. I don't think anybody will ever need to use 9 rails.
I think you miss the point of testing a table to see if the cue ball can be made to contact 9 rails on one stroke, it's kind of like testing the speed of the cloth, the cushions, the rails....and everything when you shoot the cue ball the length of the table and see how many times back and forth it'll travel. If the table don't play right, you'll never get there, so it's not a shot to make a ball. The 9 rail shot tests all 6 rails on the table in conjunction with each other...you can tell a lot about a table as you watch the cue ball traveling around the table...such as whether or not the cushions play long....or short, fast or slow, as well as the cloth speed. You can't get more than 9 rails on a pocket pool table...unless it banks long....and you have a billiards cloth on the table. In fact, on a billiards table you can only get to 11 banks...if the rails play long...which makes the table play perfect to a billiards player.
Glen
Will the tables at the 2011 DCC have the new design rails? I plan on attending and will be trying them out.
I dunno about that. If this was such an effective measure of how the table plays, don't you think the pros would be shooting 9 rail shots before their matches? Also, why would a table that goes 7 rails necessarily be inferior to a table that goes 9? Maybe the cloth is different or the one that goes 9 plays long...
So the Diamond has been modified to bank exactly like a Gold Crown? That's pretty much the last thing needed to make the table perfect or at least silence the whiners. I've been of the opinion that the Diamond did not bank wrong or played significantly different. Sure, it didn't play like a Gold Crown - it's NOT a Gold Crown. It takes very little to adjust to a Diamond. I think the old timers are just whiners that get angry at the slightest things they are made to adapt to. I've heard the same whining and condemnation when there were changes in cloth and all sorts of other aspects of the game.
Ah, one other thing, the pockets putting marks on the balls. Not a big deal. Still better than the plastic pockets that put plastic impact spots on the balls. Those are a pain to clean off. Builds up and balls play real clingy. Pick your poison.
Gold Crown had always been my favorite table. I own one. But they have become cheaper and cheaper in quality. Diamond is solid, made in America, priced better than a new GC, and just a better table in every way. Who said Americans can't compete with the Chinese/Brazillians?
Really, for the quality of the GCV and the origin of manufacture, it should be about a $2,000ish table give or take a couple of hundred. Brunswick is riding the name recognition and GC reputation and charging what I consider and outrageous amount. They have no justification to charge more than Diamond. Yet they do. That's because of the name recognition and an uninformed consumer base that creates a market where Brunswick can get that kind of money for their GCV.
The ProAm is just so solid. Give that table a good hip check and it doesn't even vibrate. Other tables vibrate and some shake just a little. Worst of all were the Gandy Big G's. Bumping into those with the front of your thigh when reaching over the table for a long stretch shot would cause balls to wobble on the table. That's not a result of bad installation. Every Gandy I've played on was like that. Unless every single Gandy I've played on was assembled and set up by hacks? I doubt it.
Critics of Greg Sullivan state that his push to change rules and specifications was to increase sales and business for his tables. Perhaps, but I disagree. The reason being is, Diamond gets it right when it comes to their specifications. They do tight pockets right. Brunswicks don't play right when their pockets are tightened UNLESS done by an expert like RKC or someone of that caliber who will extend the subrail and correct the pocket angles.
It's boring to watch the top pros play on 5" buckets. Silly. More kicks, jump shots, long range power cuts, banks, combos and other types of shots go more easily. More run outs. More packages.
A great example of that was the short life of the IPT. Both the tournaments and the qualifiers. Having watched many players practice on Gold Crown IV's....many were putting together big packages with regularity. The consensus among them was that 8-ball on 5" pocket 9 footers is "stupid" ...They sought out any ProAm they could find to practice on. Then when on the ProAm....all that wide open shootout play and packages stopped. Table slowed many of these players down. Only the elite were putting packages together. Another good example is the old Florida Tour which became the wider Seminole Tour. Semipros and lesser pros were on near equal ground with elite players on buckets. Because many of these stops were held in pool rooms with tables that had bucket pockets. As a result, lesser known semipro players would advance further. On Diamonds, the weaknesses in their game are more of a factor and they can't keep up. The big dogs make the outs and the shots on the Diamonds more often and more consistently. There are tens out thousands of A+ players across the country that can put together packages on 5" pocket Gold Crowns. Even on buckets the best still prevail most often. But the weaker are empowered.
That is why I believe that Greg Sullivan was not solely motivated by profit or promotion of his tables. He seems genuinely interested in improving the quality of equipment and the conditions of pool.
Brunswick is way behind the curve. Only with the GCV have they finally felt the pressure to offer a 4.5" pocket version. And it's not default, it's a select version. Regular GCV is 5" pockets. There was the Metro. Brunswick's answer to the ProAm which didn't really match up as a lower cost, easy to set up tournament table.
My next table will be a Diamond if I move. But my GC isn't problematic or lacking to warrant the upgrade any time soon. I remind myself that I have a table that most people wish they had and to appreciate it.
Ah, one other thing, the pockets putting marks on the balls. Not a big deal. Still better than the plastic pockets that put plastic impact spots on the balls. Those are a pain to clean off. Builds up and balls play real clingy. Pick your poison.
Gold Crown had always been my favorite table. I own one. But they have become cheaper and cheaper in quality. Diamond is solid, made in America, priced better than a new GC, and just a better table in every way. Who said Americans can't compete with the Chinese/Brazillians?
Really, for the quality of the GCV and the origin of manufacture, it should be about a $2,000ish table give or take a couple of hundred. Brunswick is riding the name recognition and GC reputation and charging what I consider and outrageous amount. They have no justification to charge more than Diamond. Yet they do. That's because of the name recognition and an uninformed consumer base that creates a market where Brunswick can get that kind of money for their GCV.
The ProAm is just so solid. Give that table a good hip check and it doesn't even vibrate. Other tables vibrate and some shake just a little. Worst of all were the Gandy Big G's. Bumping into those with the front of your thigh when reaching over the table for a long stretch shot would cause balls to wobble on the table. That's not a result of bad installation. Every Gandy I've played on was like that. Unless every single Gandy I've played on was assembled and set up by hacks? I doubt it.
Critics of Greg Sullivan state that his push to change rules and specifications was to increase sales and business for his tables. Perhaps, but I disagree. The reason being is, Diamond gets it right when it comes to their specifications. They do tight pockets right. Brunswicks don't play right when their pockets are tightened UNLESS done by an expert like RKC or someone of that caliber who will extend the subrail and correct the pocket angles.
It's boring to watch the top pros play on 5" buckets. Silly. More kicks, jump shots, long range power cuts, banks, combos and other types of shots go more easily. More run outs. More packages.
A great example of that was the short life of the IPT. Both the tournaments and the qualifiers. Having watched many players practice on Gold Crown IV's....many were putting together big packages with regularity. The consensus among them was that 8-ball on 5" pocket 9 footers is "stupid" ...They sought out any ProAm they could find to practice on. Then when on the ProAm....all that wide open shootout play and packages stopped. Table slowed many of these players down. Only the elite were putting packages together. Another good example is the old Florida Tour which became the wider Seminole Tour. Semipros and lesser pros were on near equal ground with elite players on buckets. Because many of these stops were held in pool rooms with tables that had bucket pockets. As a result, lesser known semipro players would advance further. On Diamonds, the weaknesses in their game are more of a factor and they can't keep up. The big dogs make the outs and the shots on the Diamonds more often and more consistently. There are tens out thousands of A+ players across the country that can put together packages on 5" pocket Gold Crowns. Even on buckets the best still prevail most often. But the weaker are empowered.
That is why I believe that Greg Sullivan was not solely motivated by profit or promotion of his tables. He seems genuinely interested in improving the quality of equipment and the conditions of pool.
Brunswick is way behind the curve. Only with the GCV have they finally felt the pressure to offer a 4.5" pocket version. And it's not default, it's a select version. Regular GCV is 5" pockets. There was the Metro. Brunswick's answer to the ProAm which didn't really match up as a lower cost, easy to set up tournament table.
My next table will be a Diamond if I move. But my GC isn't problematic or lacking to warrant the upgrade any time soon. I remind myself that I have a table that most people wish they had and to appreciate it.
So has anyone learned the difference between thrown together, production, worn out, hand done. Call it prefessional.....
Now comes benchmarked, Calibration, rebuilt to consistent specs, repeatability conditions is part of precision and accuracy., etc.
Maaybe we shouldn't call it Diamonized maybe we should call it what it is............. call it professionalism.......
Tollerances...When no other tolerances are provided, the machining industry uses the following standard tolerances:[3][4]
1 decimal place (.x): ±0.2
2 decimal places (.0x): ±0.01
3 decimal places (.00x): ±0.005
4 decimal places (.000x): ±0.0005
Repeatability or test-retest reliability[1] is the variation in measurements taken by a single person or instrument on the same item and under the same conditions. A measurement may be said to be repeatable when this variation is smaller than some agreed limit. According to the Guidelines for Evaluating and Expressing the Uncertainty of NIST Measurement Results, repeatability conditions include:
the same measurement procedure
the same observer
the same measuring instrument, used under the same conditions
the same location
repetition over a short period of time.
Benchmarking...Also referred to as "best practice benchmarking" or "process benchmarking", it is a process used in management and particularly strategic management, in which organizations evaluate various aspects of their processes in relation to best practice companies' processes, usually within a peer group defined for the purposes of comparison. This then allows organizations to develop plans on how to make improvements or adapt specific best practices, usually with the aim of increasing some aspect of performance. Benchmarking may be a one-off event, but is often treated as a continuous process in which organizations continually seek to improve their practices.
calibration...Successful calibration has to be consistent and systematic. At the same time, the complexity of some instruments require that only key functions be identified and calibrated. Under those conditions, a degree of randomness is needed to find unexpected deficiencies. Even the most routine calibration requires a willingness to investigate any unexpected observation.
Theoretically, anyone who can read and follow the directions of a calibration procedure can perform the work. It is recognizing and dealing with the exceptions that is the most challenging aspect of the work. This is where experience and judgement are called for and where most of the resources are consumed.
Now comes benchmarked, Calibration, rebuilt to consistent specs, repeatability conditions is part of precision and accuracy., etc.
Maaybe we shouldn't call it Diamonized maybe we should call it what it is............. call it professionalism.......
Tollerances...When no other tolerances are provided, the machining industry uses the following standard tolerances:[3][4]
1 decimal place (.x): ±0.2
2 decimal places (.0x): ±0.01
3 decimal places (.00x): ±0.005
4 decimal places (.000x): ±0.0005
Repeatability or test-retest reliability[1] is the variation in measurements taken by a single person or instrument on the same item and under the same conditions. A measurement may be said to be repeatable when this variation is smaller than some agreed limit. According to the Guidelines for Evaluating and Expressing the Uncertainty of NIST Measurement Results, repeatability conditions include:
the same measurement procedure
the same observer
the same measuring instrument, used under the same conditions
the same location
repetition over a short period of time.
Benchmarking...Also referred to as "best practice benchmarking" or "process benchmarking", it is a process used in management and particularly strategic management, in which organizations evaluate various aspects of their processes in relation to best practice companies' processes, usually within a peer group defined for the purposes of comparison. This then allows organizations to develop plans on how to make improvements or adapt specific best practices, usually with the aim of increasing some aspect of performance. Benchmarking may be a one-off event, but is often treated as a continuous process in which organizations continually seek to improve their practices.
calibration...Successful calibration has to be consistent and systematic. At the same time, the complexity of some instruments require that only key functions be identified and calibrated. Under those conditions, a degree of randomness is needed to find unexpected deficiencies. Even the most routine calibration requires a willingness to investigate any unexpected observation.
Theoretically, anyone who can read and follow the directions of a calibration procedure can perform the work. It is recognizing and dealing with the exceptions that is the most challenging aspect of the work. This is where experience and judgement are called for and where most of the resources are consumed.
Well, actually, it's a standard shot in the Artistic Pool program. Where I play, on most of the tables it's impossible to play the cue ball up and down the middle of the table and hit the far rail three times. I think such tables are broken.
Bumping this morning.
JC
Coos Cues
Diamondizing a table is a ridiculous proposition.
Sure if there were no diamond tables available anywhere at any price give it a go.
But there are plenty and if you want a table that plays like a diamond go buy one.
Otherwise you will just have a table that doesn't play like it was built to nor play like a diamond.
JC
Sure if there were no diamond tables available anywhere at any price give it a go.
But there are plenty and if you want a table that plays like a diamond go buy one.
Otherwise you will just have a table that doesn't play like it was built to nor play like a diamond.
JC
You mean WASTING more of anyone's time who gets tricked into opening this. The topic has been BEAT to death. You must be bored and looking for attention. Anyone who actually read all of the information and opinions available would have made a decision by now....
Has something changed in the last 8 years that this thread was posted on that made you feel it was important to bring back to life?