Lets just say 9 ball is a little like poker. Best players will win more money in the long run, but there is luck involved. There's no way people can be playing to 20-30 racks in a normal tournament match, and thats just the way it is. So just use what we have, and play your best, you will be paid if you do things better than the other guys consistently.
Eliminating luck, US Open 9-Ball
- Thread starter JarnoV
- Start date
Having watched couple of games from the US Open 9-ball, I've been kind of shocked to see how the rule for racking and breaking works. It's rack your own, but not a single word about making the 9-ball on the break? I've seen more than one break where the 9-ball goes straight into the corner pocket, which most probably means that the rack was loose behind the 9-ball. The opponent can of course inspect the rack, but no one's going to inspect every single rack of their opponent. Moreso if either is somewhat intimidated about about his/her opponent.
Now, I'm not saying anyone racks like this on purpose (though I've been accused of being a little bit naive on this topic, which I readily admit) but whether or not it's intentional is irrelevant. Why not just have a rule that you should spot the 9-ball if it goes to either of the bottom corners? Why not just spot the 9-ball if it goes in any pocket?
Rack your own, no referee and not spotting the 9-ball on the break seems just incredibly catastrophic mix.
Among these top professionals, race to 11 is too short to begin with, never mind some player making three 9-balls on the break in a single match on top of that. It just seems shocking to see that professionals have to deal with this sort of luck as there are rules that could easily prevent it.
Dbl post...........................
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Having watched couple of games from the US Open 9-ball, I've been kind of shocked to see how the rule for racking and breaking works. It's rack your own, but not a single word about making the 9-ball on the break? I've seen more than one break where the 9-ball goes straight into the corner pocket, which most probably means that the rack was loose behind the 9-ball. The opponent can of course inspect the rack, but no one's going to inspect every single rack of their opponent. Moreso if either is somewhat intimidated about about his/her opponent.
Now, I'm not saying anyone racks like this on purpose (though I've been accused of being a little bit naive on this topic, which I readily admit
Rack your own, no referee and not spotting the 9-ball on the break seems just incredibly catastrophic mix.
Among these top professionals, race to 11 is too short to begin with, never mind some player making three 9-balls on the break in a single match on top of that. It just seems shocking to see that professionals have to deal with this sort of luck as there are rules that could easily prevent it.
When you lose/you should rack, why? It gives you time to remember your mistakes and why you are now in this subservient position. If the 9 ball is channeling towards one of the two lower pockets you take note and deal with matters to stop this action the next time you rack (in a legal manner). If your racking your own you would NEVER stop this action of the 9 ball going towards the lower pockets because it would benefit your opponent. The rack your own mainly evolved from mid level play and whiners and it slowed MANY a tournament down (I think John McChesney started this), NO one likes playing the finals at 3AM in the morning. Race to 11 is the right number, always has been and should be (I've personally played tournament match play for over 20 years and twice in the Open got 16-24 both times). When your breaking and running out with you opponent racking it puts your opponent in a coma so to speak and thats a good thing until something changes. The games move much quicker with loser racking, we'll find the tournament will take longer to finish. Have your ever heard of a player catching a second gear? or the term smoothing out? By stopping the winner and making him rack the flow/rhythm/speed control are not being figured out as quickly and this is bad FOR THE SPORT, why, because the audience will probably see very few if any LARGE packages sent to their opponent. Your ideas/thoughts are admirable, but having played with em all in match play and beaten every one in match play except Efren/Rempe/Hopkins, I do know what I'm talking about. How many years have you played in the states to think the wheel is broken, to me the winner racking is BAD for the player bad for the audience, BAD FOR THE SPORT, spectators love to see a player down 8-2catch a gear, then come back and win 11-9 because they SMOOTHED OUT and kept their opponent in the chair.
10 Ball = no wing ball
I agree Bill that if I lose the game then I should rack, the problem that exists in 9 ball is that both players are trying to keep the wing ball from going you and I both know this Mr. Meacham and have been dealing with it for too long. Again in ten ball we have eliminated the dreaded wing ball, the only balls that have a definite area towards which they are going to travel have to be banked. I am referring to the second ball banking cross side or the back corner balls traveling four rails, if the one is on the spot and they can consistently make either one of these options then more power to them. The wing ball rack your own sourdough magic lantern gimicks should all be eliminated in my opinion, just tap the balls in lightly and play ten ball. The ref's. are mandatory and without them the sport will continue to look poor from a marketing standpoint, I remember back in the early 90's Paul Potier was trying to organize a small school of refs. for the pro nine ball events, thanks for your effort Paul.
I am not alone in my opinion about this 90% of all top rotation players agree with me but there is not enough org. amongst the players to even take a stand on replacing the ten ball game as an option. There are certain people out there who are petrified of change and I understand when Bob Dillon sang about how not to critisize what ya don't understand, but this is not rocket science and 'the times they are a changin.' It does seem to be a very slow process for pool but one day the industry will release the white knuckle grip of what they know and learn how to let the players have more fun competing at the game they love.
The player who is able to break the balls with more speed is the one who should pocket more balls and a big break lends itself to a more athletic game and no need to rack your own trick shot nothin' up the sleeve stuff, rack your own and alternate the break will only aggrevate the constant problem with the wing ball playing nine ball. In other words the Seminole Tour has the best tour.
I agree Bill that if I lose the game then I should rack, the problem that exists in 9 ball is that both players are trying to keep the wing ball from going you and I both know this Mr. Meacham and have been dealing with it for too long. Again in ten ball we have eliminated the dreaded wing ball, the only balls that have a definite area towards which they are going to travel have to be banked. I am referring to the second ball banking cross side or the back corner balls traveling four rails, if the one is on the spot and they can consistently make either one of these options then more power to them. The wing ball rack your own sourdough magic lantern gimicks should all be eliminated in my opinion, just tap the balls in lightly and play ten ball. The ref's. are mandatory and without them the sport will continue to look poor from a marketing standpoint, I remember back in the early 90's Paul Potier was trying to organize a small school of refs. for the pro nine ball events, thanks for your effort Paul.
I am not alone in my opinion about this 90% of all top rotation players agree with me but there is not enough org. amongst the players to even take a stand on replacing the ten ball game as an option. There are certain people out there who are petrified of change and I understand when Bob Dillon sang about how not to critisize what ya don't understand, but this is not rocket science and 'the times they are a changin.' It does seem to be a very slow process for pool but one day the industry will release the white knuckle grip of what they know and learn how to let the players have more fun competing at the game they love.
The player who is able to break the balls with more speed is the one who should pocket more balls and a big break lends itself to a more athletic game and no need to rack your own trick shot nothin' up the sleeve stuff, rack your own and alternate the break will only aggrevate the constant problem with the wing ball playing nine ball. In other words the Seminole Tour has the best tour.
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Racking and who breaks
The only thing I know is the we have had the Jay Swanson Memorial be 'rack your own' for 12 or 13 years.
The reason was all of the 'moves' by the breaker saying the rack was not 'right' - when the loser racked.
It took forever and often was just a move. One complaining player can RUIN a tournament!
There are also problems associated when winner racks.
But most of these problems only come out with TOP players. Guys my speed cannot make the wing ball each time and we struggle just getting out.
Such is 9-ball.
But I agree that winner breaks should be the rule for the US Open events.
Just some thoughts-
Mark Griffin
The only thing I know is the we have had the Jay Swanson Memorial be 'rack your own' for 12 or 13 years.
The reason was all of the 'moves' by the breaker saying the rack was not 'right' - when the loser racked.
It took forever and often was just a move. One complaining player can RUIN a tournament!
There are also problems associated when winner racks.
But most of these problems only come out with TOP players. Guys my speed cannot make the wing ball each time and we struggle just getting out.
Such is 9-ball.
But I agree that winner breaks should be the rule for the US Open events.
Just some thoughts-
Mark Griffin
The US Open has been the baseline/arena that brings out the true tiger in the tent. It's been the stepping stone for most if not many HOF players. Seeing 9 ball, fast paced, large packages and players down so bad they could never win yet did is truly giving the sport and the audience what they desire in match play. I remember watching Tommy Kennedy play so well he gave me goose bumps watching him beat Archer in the finals. The crowds at the Open are so knowlegeable they bring out the best in players, it's no different than Augusta/Masters, its a special place and its the most coveted of all events to win, it's a true stepping stone to the top level of play.
I got to this thread a little late but to those who are saying nine ball is an inherently flawed game, I agree 100%. It was invented as a fast way to gamble on a pool table and that's where it should be relegated in my opinion. It has no place in the professional game anymore, pure and simple, and the proof of that is that is we see organizers at the world's and the Open constantly tweaking the rules to keep it entertaining (and failing for the most part). Ten ball (with long races, tight pockets, and no jump cues) is clearly the better game. The break is more unpredictable, the run outs are far more complicated and require more pure pool skill, and the safety play is extensive. Pro Golf used to be fine on 6800 yard courses, now even the shortest courses are approaching 7500 yards. Sports evolve, and pool needs too as well.
- For those saying that the losing player should rack you're crazy. You CAN NOT have the player that is trying to beat you racking the balls for you. It's simply ridiculous.
- To Mr. Schofield's ideas, you do make some points, but ultimately your ideas are no better than the current status quo. First of all pro pool players are too good for it. Let them break the balls as they choose without having to make a ball and they will basically run out 90-95% of the racks in play. You'll have races to 20 decided by one position error and stuff. It's too contrived - like skating compulsory figures or something. There has to be some dynamic out there, some point to the exercise. When it comes to a contest to see who can spread a rack and run out I'm afraid I just don't see it. Neither would an audience I think.
- For those saying that the losing player should rack you're crazy. You CAN NOT have the player that is trying to beat you racking the balls for you. It's simply ridiculous.
- To Mr. Schofield's ideas, you do make some points, but ultimately your ideas are no better than the current status quo. First of all pro pool players are too good for it. Let them break the balls as they choose without having to make a ball and they will basically run out 90-95% of the racks in play. You'll have races to 20 decided by one position error and stuff. It's too contrived - like skating compulsory figures or something. There has to be some dynamic out there, some point to the exercise. When it comes to a contest to see who can spread a rack and run out I'm afraid I just don't see it. Neither would an audience I think.
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RBC
Deceased
A few months ago I had a thought about how to change the rack issues in 9 ball. It is broken!
What I did was rotate the rack sideways. Instead of the long dimension of the stack running lengthwise on the table, it is across the table.
I call it OB 9 Ball! LOL!
It breaks completely different. Give it a try.
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
What I did was rotate the rack sideways. Instead of the long dimension of the stack running lengthwise on the table, it is across the table.
I call it OB 9 Ball! LOL!
It breaks completely different. Give it a try.
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
RBC
Deceased
Try it!
It is completely different! The balls on the back of the rack come off the back rail and crash back into the stack. It's crazy!
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
Wow Mr. Bigfoot
Again it was not my intention to downgrade the longest running rotation event here in the states, I have many fond memories of watching Louie Roberts hit a gear and countless others while competing at 9 ball. Barry Behrman has been a major pillar in keeping this important event in alive and in action. I am not one however that likes to run on a bad leg, 9 ball has suffered in the past with rack arguments and today the problem has become even more evident. Compared to snooker 9 ball looks like a joke, at the top level there are seriouse problems with the rack. I finished 5th at the US Open nine ball Championships once upon a time, so I feel that I will not run when the game is injured.
Again I am not trying to be nitty or 'wishy washy', I just realize the facts and some people including Bigfoot want to look the other way. Lets all just pretend were back in the 80's and only a hand full of players knew about how vulnerable the 9 ball rack really was and still is. Also lets pretend Bill that nothing has changed including the loser rack, now we can once again run racks. Ohh wait a minute there playing alternate the break at the Open and this eliminates anyone from stringing racks together like they used to, now were back to reality. I guess that is not a major change in the rules and has very little affect on how the game is played including rhythm and flow of the match? The reason I am not afraid to voice my opinion is because I too love the US Open and would once again like to compete - but not under the current conditions of watching the wing ball fly in. I don't love to play 9 ball that much, if the fans like to watch the soft break and feel that nine ball is not going anywhere then more power to the Us Open and alternate break rack your own format.
Again it was not my intention to downgrade the longest running rotation event here in the states, I have many fond memories of watching Louie Roberts hit a gear and countless others while competing at 9 ball. Barry Behrman has been a major pillar in keeping this important event in alive and in action. I am not one however that likes to run on a bad leg, 9 ball has suffered in the past with rack arguments and today the problem has become even more evident. Compared to snooker 9 ball looks like a joke, at the top level there are seriouse problems with the rack. I finished 5th at the US Open nine ball Championships once upon a time, so I feel that I will not run when the game is injured.
Again I am not trying to be nitty or 'wishy washy', I just realize the facts and some people including Bigfoot want to look the other way. Lets all just pretend were back in the 80's and only a hand full of players knew about how vulnerable the 9 ball rack really was and still is. Also lets pretend Bill that nothing has changed including the loser rack, now we can once again run racks. Ohh wait a minute there playing alternate the break at the Open and this eliminates anyone from stringing racks together like they used to, now were back to reality. I guess that is not a major change in the rules and has very little affect on how the game is played including rhythm and flow of the match? The reason I am not afraid to voice my opinion is because I too love the US Open and would once again like to compete - but not under the current conditions of watching the wing ball fly in. I don't love to play 9 ball that much, if the fans like to watch the soft break and feel that nine ball is not going anywhere then more power to the Us Open and alternate break rack your own format.
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10 ball spots up
Royce, I tried your sideways rack a little and it seemed like the balls flew around more. What has your experience been in average number of balls made with the rack east/west instead of north/south? Do any particular balls go in consistently? Have you had enough experience with it yet to comment?
Twist the rack ehh
Well I would be willing to try and break under those conditions (twisting the rack.) But I have had my break clocked at over 30 mph, I would think this could be dangerous as what use to be the wing balls would take flight indeed. So I would again say that even under those conditions Royce that 9 ball lends itself to the soft break. I know too much about the rack playing 9 ball, once a good player from Florida hustled me to play some 9 ball. I gave him a counter - offer to play ten ball instead, he said no thanks. I learned later he was barred from Joss Northeast tour for a while cause he was being too fussy about the rack (imagine that.) There are only 1 of two reasons why he turned down my counter offer, either he was not physically strong enough to really break the balls (which I doubt) or he was a rack mechanic. Either way the last time I won against him he had a poor attitude, some want to argue and some want to play pool. Nine ball is in my opinion a small time gamblers game in which the rack and the break dominate about 90% of the game. I heard once that back in the 20's the word on the street was the bums played pool and the gentleman play Billiards, I would say that this is a fair analogy with the 9 and Ten Ball, some enjoy the drama and the chance to shark and or cheat. As for me I enjoy the ten ball, this is not to say that everyone who plays 9 ball is a bum.
Well I would be willing to try and break under those conditions (twisting the rack.) But I have had my break clocked at over 30 mph, I would think this could be dangerous as what use to be the wing balls would take flight indeed. So I would again say that even under those conditions Royce that 9 ball lends itself to the soft break. I know too much about the rack playing 9 ball, once a good player from Florida hustled me to play some 9 ball. I gave him a counter - offer to play ten ball instead, he said no thanks. I learned later he was barred from Joss Northeast tour for a while cause he was being too fussy about the rack (imagine that.) There are only 1 of two reasons why he turned down my counter offer, either he was not physically strong enough to really break the balls (which I doubt) or he was a rack mechanic. Either way the last time I won against him he had a poor attitude, some want to argue and some want to play pool. Nine ball is in my opinion a small time gamblers game in which the rack and the break dominate about 90% of the game. I heard once that back in the 20's the word on the street was the bums played pool and the gentleman play Billiards, I would say that this is a fair analogy with the 9 and Ten Ball, some enjoy the drama and the chance to shark and or cheat. As for me I enjoy the ten ball, this is not to say that everyone who plays 9 ball is a bum.
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Danny...just wanted let you know that I enjoy your game and would like to see you play more events!!!
I also wanted to let you know that there is an opening for a pool room helper or maybe even house pro at a pool room in WV if your interested.....:thumbup:
j/k with ya Danny!!!!
Gary
I also wanted to let you know that there is an opening for a pool room helper or maybe even house pro at a pool room in WV if your interested.....:thumbup:
j/k with ya Danny!!!!
Gary
What about this, rack your own, 2 minute time limit, (you don't get the balls racked in 2 minutes, lose of game) make the nine in the top two pockets it spots up.
From here the learning curve on how the gaps effects the ball paths after the break will become obvious to every one and the current advantages a few people now have will be quickly eliminated. Pattern racking will make these things easier to spot, especially when filmed.
Rack your own is the only way to go and keep power in a primarily offensive game.
American ignorance
Well now I realize that very few people really even care, as we see the ignorant non productive input from the peanut gallery. I guess it's just history repeating.
Well now I realize that very few people really even care, as we see the ignorant non productive input from the peanut gallery. I guess it's just history repeating.
Its nine ball guys. Maybe its just time for a new game.With the level these guys run out at if people still want a rotation game then lets start playing rotation! 15 balls, if someone strings 3 or 4 together now that would be exciting to watch.If were going to keep playing 9 ball lets start playing it right 2 foul everything spots,behind the line on the break.I hate rack your own I hate altenate breaks.one advantage to winning is you dont have to go down and rack the balls .They started texas exp rules to speed it up for tv and by doing so they made it so boring nobody watches it on tv anymore.ESPN has women and speed pool and trickshots.I cant remember the last time I saw a good mens match on TV.Why? because nobody wants to watch a bunch of robots run out 7 or 8 balls after the break. Its gotten to a point if a guy makes a ball and nothings tied up you just asssume hes out and are supprised if hes not. There is nothing intresting about pro level 9 ball anymore.Spoting balls is great.How many players practice spot shots daily anymore.Unless your a one pocket player,NONE. IMO a spot shot is an exciting start of a run.Weve ruined 9 ball so mabey its time to move on.
Well said H2O