For those of you that remember the 80's...

[greyghost]

While reading this thread, I told myself not to get into it. I know how these things go, and it isn't pretty. I enjoy GreyGhosts posts 99.99% of the time, and I can tell he is passionate about this subject.

Sadly, there are a few problems with your arguments, GGhost. I'm not going to get into the whole thing, but I do want to point out one glaring difference that kids today face compared to when we were kids. You think a little conflict and confrontation is good for kids, and getting punched sometimes will happen. Tell me this: do you ever remember kids bringing guns to school when we were kids, much less actually using them? It is scary being a kid today. The pressures are FAR different than when we were kids. Weapons are far more readily available, and the whole population is desensitized to their being used. Kids get KILLED for their freakin sneakers. For "disrespecting" another kid. And a whole host of other reasons. Not even starting with the drugs that are available today compared to our generation.

Going to school is a nightmare for many kids. There isn't enough supervision and kids get abused big time. Even the ones who aren't necessarily "weirdos" like you describe. I think by your post, you believe that it's good for kids to get beaten up now and again. What are you as a parent supposed to tell your kid when they are scared to death to go to school? That they aren't tough enough?

And then there is this wonderful outlet we are using right now. The internet, and everything related. Facebook, Twitter, text messaging, and the rest. Kids get ridiculed and bullied at a far greater level than we ever thought of, and a far faster pace.

Too weak, too sensitive, too protected? I do everything I can possibly do to protect my kids in todays world, and I know it isn't necessarily enough. We've been lucky so far, and my guys are wonderful kids. And they can stand up for themselves if they need to. But I see many of their peers who have been on the wrong end of things and it ain't because they were weak. It was because they weren't as protected (or as lucky) as my kids are.

As for the rest of your opus, I'll gladly pass on making further comment. I understand where you are coming from, and many or your frustrations. But don't think that kids today aren't facing conflict or are over-protected compared to our generations. Because they sure as hell aren't.

Carry on, and good shooting. One and all.

thats a wonderful and well thought out post my friend. But no I don't beleive them getting beaten up is a good thing, just confrontation is a good thing or can be in its diff forms.

You are correct on the gun stuff, but that also harkens back to the parents. I was taught strongly right and wrong about guns at a very young age.

So if it did so happen that I found a gun in my hands when alone I wouldn't kill myself or harm anyone else.

Kids must be informed and taught by their parents, most of my comments on this are only generalized hope you understand that b/c we could talk all day long and more and never get finished talking about it.

But you cant control what others do.

If they are scared or you are then homeschool them by all means.....but don't shelter them from people and lock them up like I've seen many people do....those are the ones I'm knocking. Those are the ones that grow up and freak out and off the deep end in their lives. My next door neighbor and his 5 girls are great examples of what not to do. I'd swear those girls never saw daylight, no wonder the oldest started messing around with a drug dealer once she moved out! She just wanted the EXACT opposite of good and hearty she had for 18 years.

But yes don't read too deep into my comments, I'm open about alot of my views but some of them are not fully formed on here so no one be jumping to conclusions about me.....I'd say lets just end it right there and if anyone wants to talk further we can do it in private. B/c there's nothing worse than being misunderstood......sometimes its like trying to explain how CTE works via text.

thanks guys/gals
-Keebie

 

[Maniac]

Pool is a game that doesn't need to be watched on television. We should be down at the local "hall" playin', not sittin' in the Laz-Z-Boy watchin' it.

If anyone thinks that televising pool is the answer for salvaging the sad state it is now in (as far as anyone wanting to make $$$ at it goes), I've got some water rights in Antartica I'd like to sell ya :wink:.

GG, FWIW, my skills do not allow me to run a rack all that often. I practice and play many hours weekly, but my age and physical limatations have my game to a point where it's just not going to get much better. I play safeties when I know the table is not "runable". I have to. Since I have learned to play a decent safety game, my winning percentage has improved (as has my wifes' for the same reason) to the point that has me wondering why I didn't learn safety play sooner. I do not apologize to anyone for shooting safeties. I do what I HAVE to do to gain any advantage I can over people that shoot better than I. Or, I could just go for a shot I have little chance of making and just HAND the game/match to my opponent.

I do not want to get into a debate with anyone on this (or any other) subject. I agree with you that it may be boring, but for some of us, it's nothing more than a survival tactic.

Maniac

 

[hdgis1]

I am by no means accusing you of being racist or any other -ism, but you have to understand that the underlying ideology of political correctness is the same as that which underlies the fight for racial, sexual, and gender equality. At root is the belief that all people are fundamentally the same in regards to their universal right to be free. Freedom (while a loaded term in itself) implies the absence of both languages and actions that impinge upon personal liberty. In this case, liberty and freedom are not defined by the power wielding elite (read white upper class) but by the very individuals who choose to lives their lives however they see fit. The call to arms you are looking for should in fact be directed at an attempt to find an inclusive cultural identity in which we are able to both celebrate our individual differences (be they ethnic, religious, economic, etc) and identify ourselves as "Americans".

Chris

Political correctness takes away all the feeling in life. They are trying to make a pretend world that doesn't exist.

And the terms your talking about are not what I'm refering to.

I'm speaking of things like The Pledge being taken out of school. School uniforms. Not being able to whip your kids (and i don't mean beat! i mean a whipping) like if you spank your kids your a POS....COME ON! Getting my butt whooped when i done bad was one of the best things that ever happend to me in life.

They are dumbed down in school just so everyone "feels" good lol.

cellphones, email, reality tv, much of the internet......its all media the rottenest crap in the world for a young kid.

You can't tell a kid anything these days. The things I hear said, I couldn't have said as a child........and very sure that my father could have NEVER NEVER GOTTEN AWAY WITH WHAT THE KIDS DO TODAY from their parents.

And the teachers tell the parents what to do.....so does the tv.....and the govt is along for the ride working those cookie cutter kids with mush for brains and individuality about as unique as a door knob.

They play nintendo, and farmerville and they text......this is life


and we play pool? jesus they must think we are Fred Flintstone.....not that kids today know who the hell Fred Flintstone is since they are too busy watching SPONGE BOB SQUARE PANTS!

I'd never let my children watch that trash. G.I. Joe was much better b/c knowing is half the battle kidz!

-Grey Ghost-

 

[hdgis1]

Well said!!!!

Chris

While reading this thread, I told myself not to get into it. I know how these things go, and it isn't pretty. I enjoy GreyGhosts posts 99.99% of the time, and I can tell he is passionate about this subject.

Sadly, there are a few problems with your arguments, GGhost. I'm not going to get into the whole thing, but I do want to point out one glaring difference that kids today face compared to when we were kids. You think a little conflict and confrontation is good for kids, and getting punched sometimes will happen. Tell me this: do you ever remember kids bringing guns to school when we were kids, much less actually using them? It is scary being a kid today. The pressures are FAR different than when we were kids. Weapons are far more readily available, and the whole population is desensitized to their being used. Kids get KILLED for their freakin sneakers. For "disrespecting" another kid. And a whole host of other reasons. Not even starting with the drugs that are available today compared to our generation.

Going to school is a nightmare for many kids. There isn't enough supervision and kids get abused big time. Even the ones who aren't necessarily "weirdos" like you describe. I think by your post, you believe that it's good for kids to get beaten up now and again. What are you as a parent supposed to tell your kid when they are scared to death to go to school? That they aren't tough enough?

And then there is this wonderful outlet we are using right now. The internet, and everything related. Facebook, Twitter, text messaging, and the rest. Kids get ridiculed and bullied at a far greater level than we ever thought of, and a far faster pace.

Too weak, too sensitive, too protected? I do everything I can possibly do to protect my kids in todays world, and I know it isn't necessarily enough. We've been lucky so far, and my guys are wonderful kids. And they can stand up for themselves if they need to. But I see many of their peers who have been on the wrong end of things and it ain't because they were weak. It was because they weren't as protected (or as lucky) as my kids are.

As for the rest of your opus, I'll gladly pass on making further comment. I understand where you are coming from, and many or your frustrations. But don't think that kids today aren't facing conflict or are over-protected compared to our generations. Because they sure as hell aren't.

Carry on, and good shooting. One and all.

 

[Zbotiman]

"What, are ya serious?"

Those comments are exactly why the women dont wipe the floor with the men.....they would rather play safe than go for a shot.....that gets you beat too you know.....

....just saw this post, soo--------, here goes; The women you speak of, top players or just locals? Personally, I don't run into many female regional shortstops, do you? That's the level of play we're talking about with a comment like this one! Your not talking about the "world class A players" or you wouldn't lump this type of criticism on them. Most men can't beat Gerda Hofstatter and if you'll check the results of the Joss tour, you'll find that get's a little stronger when your talking about Karen Corr!

So if you've got no-shot, when talking about either of these 2 women, what makes your comments appropriate about safety play concerning women or men at any level of play? Both of these women could've won against a "LOT" of men players who were considered "run-out artists" back in the late 80's. You don't get away with "free-wheeling," playing against the likes of a Karen Corr or Gerda Hofstatter!

Funny story illustrating that point. Jimmy Rempe was laughing at Larry Lisciotti because he lost to Karen Corr in a nine-ball tournament they were all playing in. You know the speil, " you lost to a girl, ha ha ha! Later on she beat Jimmy twice to win the finals of that tournament!"

Safeties are an integral part of world class play, PERIOD! Nine-ball is a game designed for fast play on T.V., it is not the game of skill your all talking about turning it into. Nine-ball is an aggressive, offensive game, that was never intended to be that type of skill game, that's straight pool! But when it becomes the only game in town, world class play dictates SAFETIES! Imagine an NFL football team with NO-DEFENSE, NO-CHANCE of winning even with the 49'ers greatest offense with Montana at the Helm!!! High scoring alone just ain't gonna get ya there!

 

[ridewiththewind]

With the advent of jump cues; it diluted the effectiveness of decent safety play. Why waste an opportunity to pocket a ball to continue a run, only to have your opponent pull out a short stick and negate it anyways, when you can attempt to pocket the ball with a viable shot safety option?

Of course, I'm just a local yokel. :sorry:

 

[ironman]

"Ah yes, I hear that, the sweet ring of truth!"
...there have always been people that play "WIDE OPEN." See how many players from that era, that tried to give and out-run ridiculous spots had any money left at the end of the day? Answer, NONE! (A super money player from that era who favored wide open play, like Bucky Bell could state this better), but You will go broke playing that way, you did in the eighties and you most certainly will playing against the top young guns of today!

In days and times past, most regional shortstops folded up, playing against an "Internationally known "gun," like a DiLiberto, or Sigel, and I'm sure they'd attest to that." Today however, "EVERYONE fires at you despite your reputation! Just ask Mike Sigel how intimidated 18 year old Jesse Engel was of him this year at the Open?

And if any of you seriously think the play was better in the 80's, your deluding yourself believing that fairy-tale! The players of today, play percentages, because that's what "WINS, did in the 80's, does today." It's just that more players realize that today and play that way because of that fact! You may win some matches "free-stroking" and playing wide open, but you won't get to the end of a pro tournament trying that SH*T!!!:banghead:

Well I must be crazy because I believe play in the early 70's and 80's was better than today. i believe Buddy in his height would have busted SVB and Mika. It was a different game than now though.
When the texas Express came about many got lost. Richie Ambrose at the time was one of the most feared 9 ball players on the planet. He never adjusted to the Tx Express and ended up just being another pool player. Wade never really caught it either. There were several others too.
in those days it was a different game. It was a push out. Some one would push to a shot and the other would study. Often you could see his thinking, i can't make it, but can't let him shoot it either.
They pushed to long banks which were aimed a hair short and with speed to come back just short of the side pocket. That was a shot you better know or go busted real fast.
Players pushed out to hard shots. That is the way the game was designed. Now there is no option, you must kick at the ball and not matter how you kick, hope for the best.
These rules are the reason so many gave up those huge spots and would if playing long enough take it off. Back then priority number one was making balls and shooting straight. With the tx express, many excel who don't shoot very straight at all. Combine that with alternating break, and the whole game has changed.
It is an argument that will go on for years to come. Most of us who do remember and enjoyed will be dead soon or in the next 20 years or I hope I am before they improve the game for TV again. What a joke that excuse is and a different topic.
Mark Spitz won 4 Gold medal in the Olympics and 8 years later, his times would not have qualified him. i wonder if Jim Brown would even earn a spot on and NFL team now. The Babe? he would be fun even still today in this world?

 

[Johnnyt]

What I remember from the 80's and before was a strong "B" player could go play in almost any bar in the country and come out at the end of the night with his/her pockets full and a good free buzz on. Now everybody and their brother runs out like water. Damn Internet. No more fish in the barrel...you have to work for it. Johnnyt

 

[Maniac]

Well I must be crazy because I believe play in the early 70's and 80's was better than today. i believe Buddy in his height would have busted SVB and Mika. It was a different game than now though.


Mark Spitz won 4 Gold medal in the Olympics and 8 years later, his times would not have qualified him. i wonder if Jim Brown would even earn a spot on and NFL team now. The Babe? he would be fun even still today in this world?

You have kind of contradicted yourself here ironman. Why were pool players better in the 70's-80's but other athletes you mention at the end of your post don't hold a candle to modern athletes? Rule changes in pool watered-down todays players? Rules have changed in the other sports you mentioned too! It didn't water-down athletes in those genres. IMO, the pool players of today as a whole are every bit as strong as the players of yesteryear. Why wouldn't they be? Are they the only players/athletes* of a sport to actually get WORSE over the years? I don't think so.

*It is a never-ending debate by many sports followers that the football/baseball/etc. players of yesteryear are better than todays players. I personally am in the group that believes that todays teams could wipe the floor with teams from yesteryears. Pool being no different, IMO.

Maniac

 

[paksat]

Play the percentages, play the safties, take advantage of the rules and win the money. Im not mad but it is friggin boring. Kids turn on the TV see a pool match watch a few minutes and says this is boring. Well what are the chances of him or her actually ever playing the game. It doesnt have to be a circus but at least some character. I can say one thing i got the opportunity to know cornbread red in the last years of his life and even then when i was around him i was either embarrassed, scared, or lmao. But one thing i wasnt and that was bored.

see i think you're trying to appeal a game to a generation that, as greyghost has noted, is ridiculous. You want to try and appease a group of kids who have the enet, texting and all this INSTANT GRATIFICATION.. and you want them to get into a game like pool that is nothing but patience and nerves of steel..

it's not the game man.. it's the people.

 

[justadub]

see i think you're trying to appeal a game to a generation that, as greyghost has noted, is ridiculous. You want to try and appease a group of kids who have the enet, texting and all this INSTANT GRATIFICATION.. and you want them to get into a game like pool that is nothing but patience and nerves of steel..

it's not the game man.. it's the people.

I really wasn't gonna perpetuate this thread any more, but I'm weak.

Two things. First, so far as the "instant gratification" and all the gadgets that kids are into today. I challenge you all to ask yourselves this question: "If this was available to me when I was a kid, would I have been into it like they are today?" If you say no, I believe you are fooling yourself. I know for a fact that if I had the internet and video games and cell phones and all that when I was a kid, I'd have been all over it. I think the collective "you" would have been, too.

Secondly, regarding the line "and you want them to get into a game like pool that is nothing but patience and nerves of steel.."... I thought the main complaint regarding pool in this thread was AGAINST patience, ie the safety. So which way is it?

Lastly, I believe SVB, Mika, Mike Dechaine and a bunch of our top players today would qualify as being pretty young. Somehow great pool playing wasn't lost to their generation...

Have fun and play pool folks. Stop complaining about those damned kids. We sound like our parents. Funny how that happens.

 

[Island Drive]

Well I must be crazy because I believe play in the early 70's and 80's was better than today. i believe Buddy in his height would have busted SVB and Mika. It was a different game than now though.
When the texas Express came about many got lost. Richie Ambrose at the time was one of the most feared 9 ball players on the planet. He never adjusted to the Tx Express and ended up just being another pool player. Wade never really caught it either. There were several others too.
in those days it was a different game. It was a push out. Some one would push to a shot and the other would study. Often you could see his thinking, i can't make it, but can't let him shoot it either.
They pushed to long banks which were aimed a hair short and with speed to come back just short of the side pocket. That was a shot you better know or go busted real fast.
Players pushed out to hard shots. That is the way the game was designed. Now there is no option, you must kick at the ball and not matter how you kick, hope for the best.
These rules are the reason so many gave up those huge spots and would if playing long enough take it off. Back then priority number one was making balls and shooting straight. With the tx express, many excel who don't shoot very straight at all. Combine that with alternating break, and the whole game has changed.
It is an argument that will go on for years to come. Most of us who do remember and enjoyed will be dead soon or in the next 20 years or I hope I am before they improve the game for TV again. What a joke that excuse is and a different topic.
Mark Spitz won 4 Gold medal in the Olympics and 8 years later, his times would not have qualified him. i wonder if Jim Brown would even earn a spot on and NFL team now. The Babe? he would be fun even still today in this world?

The true beauty of roll out was testing, knowing and understanding your opponents and your limits. NO one liked rolling out a thin cut to Rempe in his prime, because of rollout players quickly learned the free shot. With todays game the only thing I dislike is someone getting extremely lucky on a kick shot and locking you up and giving you the beat through no real skill.
I think EACH player should get ONE ROLL OUT PER RACK, breaker and non breaker, that would level the playing field ALLOT, and players would be much more agressive during their turn at the table. WHO SAID IT WAS FAIR THAT ONLY THE BREAKER COULD ROLL OUT?????

 

[Big Perm]

I agree, the 80's were a different era altogether.....I learned the game in the 80's as a kid.....the game was simple - make your shots until all the balls were gone....there was no such thing as a safety, that type of crap got you a black eye, or at the least, not invited back to play on a friends table.....as a "real' player, you played a two-way shot - if it was low percentage, you left the cueball in a spot where you had a reasonable next shot if you made the ball, but your opponent had a tough shot if you missed.......IMHO, the two-way shot is a lost art....

It stayed that way for as long as I remember, until I mostly stopped playing in the late nineties.....you'd see a rare safety, but only if someone truly could not find anything to shoot at.....

Then I returned to the game in 2006, playing socially in leagues to get to know a few folks and compete again.....the climate had totally changed.....I'd see what I'd consider to be a decent player run 2 balls, get just a tiny bit out of line, and play safe.....next turn at the table, same jazz.....and EVERYONE was doing it.....there was a safety a game on every match we played.....even the pro players on TV seemed to do the same - get a little out of line, play safe....God forbid somebody might actually try to bank a ball....

IMHO, pool has lost it's excitement, it's sexiness.....whether at league or on TV, I want to see people go for it.....the art of the 2 way shot needs to come back.....we need banks, and tough cuts, and combos, and everything that makes people want to watch, and makes me want to play.....

 

[mrsmith1976]

The 80's

I too am an old school nine foot player. People around here call them "big tables" I just laugh and tell them "No those are REAL tables". I miss the days when pool was all out. Big breaks, long banks, and thin cuts. And if you needed weight, you needed to match up with someone closer to your speed.

P.S...When players ask me for weight I clearly kick them across the pool hall screaming..."THIS IS SPARTA!!!!:angry:

 

[Blackjack]

Well I must be crazy because I believe play in the early 70's and 80's was better than today. i believe Buddy in his height would have busted SVB and Mika. It was a different game than now though.
When the texas Express came about many got lost. Richie Ambrose at the time was one of the most feared 9 ball players on the planet. He never adjusted to the Tx Express and ended up just being another pool player. Wade never really caught it either. There were several others too.
in those days it was a different game. It was a push out. Some one would push to a shot and the other would study. Often you could see his thinking, i can't make it, but can't let him shoot it either.
They pushed to long banks which were aimed a hair short and with speed to come back just short of the side pocket. That was a shot you better know or go busted real fast.
Players pushed out to hard shots. That is the way the game was designed. Now there is no option, you must kick at the ball and not matter how you kick, hope for the best.
These rules are the reason so many gave up those huge spots and would if playing long enough take it off. Back then priority number one was making balls and shooting straight. With the tx express, many excel who don't shoot very straight at all. Combine that with alternating break, and the whole game has changed.
It is an argument that will go on for years to come. Most of us who do remember and enjoyed will be dead soon or in the next 20 years or I hope I am before they improve the game for TV again. What a joke that excuse is and a different topic.
Mark Spitz won 4 Gold medal in the Olympics and 8 years later, his times would not have qualified him. i wonder if Jim Brown would even earn a spot on and NFL team now. The Babe? he would be fun even still today in this world?

Stop being sentimental, you bitter, old dinosaur.
:wink:

 

[ironman]

Stop being sentimental, you bitter, old dinosaur.
:wink:

Ah STFU!!! I ain't so bitter I just been in a bad mood for 25 years!!!! LOL!

 

[Island Drive]

Ah STFU!!! I ain't so bitter I just been in a bad mood for 25 years!!!! LOL!

Is that why you laugh so much when I'm around U? I would also like your comments on my dbl roll out thread, PLEASE.....................

 

[BilliardsHQ.com]

maybe the drugs were better in the 80's? Just kidding, please no one yell at me.

 

[Blackjack]

Ah STFU!!! I ain't so bitter I just been in a bad mood for 25 years!!!! LOL!

Is that a genuinely "real" bad mood, or is it phenolic?

 

[ironman]

Is that why you laugh so much when I'm around U? I would also like your comments on my dbl roll out thread, PLEASE.....................

hey Bill,
I'm still a pretty upbeat Guy and like my wife say's, I always rinse out the sink after I pee in it!
I will go to the other thread and respond.