Frozen or not frozen?

dabarbr

dabarbr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You're playing on a table that has a cloth with many hairs that are not flush to the bed or the rails. An object ball comes to rest at the rail and clearly there are many strands of the cloth touching the ball but at the same time you can see some a very little bit of light pass between the ball and the main structure of the rail.
The question is if you were called to make the decision as to if it's frozen or not, what would you call?
Are not the hairs (strands) part of the rail? Is the rubber considered the rail only or is the cloth also considered part of the rail too.
 
threads are part of the rail

I was wrong, it's not frozen
 
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If you can see light between the closest part of the sphere and the cushion, it is not frozen. I don't care how many strands are touching the rest of the ball.
 
Its frozen went it can not get any closer to the rail. It it is just touching the threads it can still move a tiny bit closer to the rail so it is not frozen.
 
The rules (WSR) do not clarify beyond "touching". A fair way to decide is to call over an uninterested party and without telling him which player wants which decision, ask him "Is that ball touching the cushion?"
 
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Loki4711 said:
Its frozen went it can not get any closer to the rail. It it is just touching the threads it can still move a tiny bit closer to the rail so it is not frozen.
Click to expand...

I like this call....I'm calling it 'not froze'.

The strangest one I had to call was at snooker where it is very significant
if the cue-ball is touching an object-ball.
The room was near a train yard and vibrations were making it 'froze-unfroze'
at about the same rate as a fast heart beat.
My first call...it depends when you shoot it...:cool:

my final call was froze
 
Frozen is hard against the rail where there is no light visible between the ball and the rail.

If you can see light between the ball and the rail it isn't frozen, no matter what sort of debris is touching the ball.

:cool:
 
Bob Jewett said:
The rules (WSR) do not clarify beyond "touching". A fair way to decide is to call over an uninterested party and without telling him which player wants which decision, ask him "Is that ball touching the cushion?"
Click to expand...
If you were the person asked, and you saw a single fiber of the cushion cloth touching the ball, with an otherwise noticeable gap between the ball and the bulk of the cushion cloth, how would you make the call?

An argument can be made that the ball is in fact touching the cushion, because the cloth and all of its fibers are part of the cushion. However, an argument could also be made that the ball is not frozen to the bulk of the cushion, and declaring the stray fiber as "touching" would be "out of the spirit" of the rule. The practical side of me wants to say the ball is not frozen to the cushion; but if the rule is interpreted strictly, the ball is frozen. What do you and others think?

Regards,
Dave
 
In BCAPL play

In BCAPL play, the issue is already addressed by the BCAPL definition of "Frozen Ball". It is not frozen.

To the best of my knowledge, no other rule set bothers with such detail.

:)
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* Unless specifically stated, the contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Unless specifically stated, no reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post.
* Neither I, nor any BCAPL referee, make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
 
Buddy,

Could you quote the specific text from the BCAPL rules that deals with the case I describe above? And what if the ball is in the rail "groove" (with no noticeable gap), but only one (or even a few fibers) is actually touching the ball?

I look forward to reading how you guys address the wide range of possibilities that can occur.

Thanks,
Dave

tatcat2000 said:
In BCAPL play, the issue is already addressed by the BCAPL definition of "Frozen Ball". It is not frozen.

To the best of my knowledge, no other rule set bothers with such detail.

:)
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* Unless specifically stated, the contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Unless specifically stated, no reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post.
* Neither I, nor any BCAPL referee, make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
Click to expand...
 
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JBKY said:
Yes I agree with this also.If not, everybody better have a magnifying glass.John B.
Click to expand...
Yes, that could be a problem. I can picture some player who does not want the ball to be frozen to come up to the table with a fine needle and run the needle between the ball and the cushion. He doesn't touch the cue ball but the nearly-invisible thread is gone. I'd try to capture video of the ensuing fight.

This leads to the larger question of whether the frozen ball rule is useful. The main thing it does is prevent stalemates in which both players repeatedly play off the same ball in which the only rail contact is between the frozen ball and the cushion. Maybe it is time for the rule to go away.

Related to the magnifying glass idea, the rules of carom billiards do not allow the use of measuring devices to determine who won the lag. If the lag is too close to decide with the unaided eye, the players lag again. At the Mosconi Cup one lag was measured.
 
dr_dave said:
Buddy,

Could you quote the specific text from the BCAPL rules that deals with the case I describe above? And what if the ball is in the rail "groove" (with no noticeable gap), but only one (or even a few fibers) is actually touching the ball?

I look forward to reading how you guys address the wide range of possibilities that can occur.

Thanks,
Dave
Click to expand...

Hi Dave,

I know you asked Buddy, but I happened to be reading my BCAPL rule book like all good refs should do now and then :grin: It's here http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx and the verbatim below which can be found on pg 8 of Definitions & Diagrams: Frozen Ball

A ball that is touching another ball or a cushion. If loose strands or fibers of cloth extend from a cushion and contact a ball, that does not constitute that ball being frozen to the cushion.

S.G.
 
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sunnyday said:
Hi Dave,

I know you asked Buddy, but I happened to be reading my BCAPL rule book like all good refs should do now and then :grin: It's here http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx and the verbatim below which can be found on pg 8 of Definitions & Diagrams: Frozen Ball

A ball that is touching another ball or a cushion. If loose strands or fibers of cloth extend from a cushion and contact a ball, that does not constitute that ball being frozen to the cushion.

S.G.
Click to expand...
Some cloths are "fuzzier" than others, and what qualifies as "loose strands" might not always be obvious. Therein lies is the problem. Anytime a ball is "touching" (i.e., "frozen to") a cushion, only a certain number of cushion fibers are actually in contact with the ball, whether or not they are "loose" or "tight;" and some light will always shine through those fibers. One might think these sorts of things are silly to discuss, because most reasonable people know when the ball is "touching" or not (under a "reasonable" interpretation of the rules), regardless of how many cloth fibers ("loose" or not) are actually in contact with the ball. However, these discussion are useful to the people who write and read the rules, because rules often involve "interpretation." And what is obvious to most people isn't always obvious to all people. That's why it is important to think about these sorts of things when the rules are written and interpreted.

Regards,
Dave
 
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I would rule not frozen based on the reasoning that the ball would behave like a non-frozen ball if it was only in contact with fuzz extending from the cushion. Also, I would follow the BCAPL ruling on this since the BCAPL rules are very similar to WSR on how most games are played and they are the only ones that specifically address this. It seems the BCAPL is the only body that is constantly looking at and revising their rules on an ongoing basis.

BTW, does the WPA have a set of applied rulings? I can't seem to find this anywhere on their website.
 
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Dave / all -

Gotta get to league - will address this further later tonight...short answer - we train to shade the area from above and look for light. With just a little experience, the answer is usually evident, even with extra fuzzy cloth. We have one place here with 70's shag carpet on the tables - I'll stop on the way home and check it out to be sure...

Buddy
 
Its only frozen when the ball is completely against the rail,, rail fuzz doesnt count imo, it needs to be so close that theres no psssible way light can be seen between the rail and ball in question.......
 
Bob Jewett said:
Yes, that could be a problem. I can picture some player who does not want the ball to be frozen to come up to the table with a fine needle and run the needle between the ball and the cushion. He doesn't touch the cue ball but the nearly-invisible thread is gone. I'd try to capture video of the ensuing fight.

This leads to the larger question of whether the frozen ball rule is useful. The main thing it does is prevent stalemates in which both players repeatedly play off the same ball in which the only rail contact is between the frozen ball and the cushion. Maybe it is time for the rule to go away.

Related to the magnifying glass idea, the rules of carom billiards do not allow the use of measuring devices to determine who won the lag. If the lag is too close to decide with the unaided eye, the players lag again. At the Mosconi Cup one lag was measured.
Click to expand...

Hey Bob,IMO the rule Is very useful.I have never had much problem with the rule.All you need to be able to do Is see light coming between ball and rail. again Imo.That would make a good video though,lol.John B.
 
In my opinion:

A ball is frozen to a rail when it cannot get any closer to the rail without some force being used to force it into the rail.

Another way to look at it: If you roll the CB up to the questionably-frozen ball, and the ball moves closer to the rail before starting to compress the rubber underneith the cloth covering the rail, then the ball was not frozen to the rail at the outset of the shot.
 
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