The situation diagrammed below is very common. You can get on the break ball in a number of different ways. I would like to know which position route you would choose (red, black, or blue) and then explain why...
Getting from the key ball to the break ball
- Thread starter Blackjack
- Start date
I prefer red or black depending on which of them is natural way to get there (no english applied (or very little running english), natural roll). Seems like red is. It is more preferable also for me because black leaves too steep angle so that the break ball becomes missable.
I too prefer the RED, it is a more natural shot. and you can stroke the shot more fluidly. i also find with the BLUE, if you dont hit the right side of the pocket you may lose the control of the cueball....
and with the BLACK i find that you end up to far away from the breakshot!
steve
and with the BLACK i find that you end up to far away from the breakshot!
steve
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With this angle I like the blue. There is a tad more angle here than I feel is the natural way for the other two routes. It looks like it would require a bit extra spin and a little low as well. The blue way you are in line the whole way. It even appears as though you could make the blue angle come a bit closer to the break ball on the way out from the bottom rail and I like the steeper angled break shot it would create.
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I like the black route, much more forgiving for speed. Red is crossing the angle too much and speed and spin become way more critical. Blue has too much risk of running into the breakball. With the black you might end up with a longer shot but at least you will have a breakshot.
I like whatever Steve Lipsky likes.
I would probably aim for a hybrid of the red and the black. I wouldn't go near the blue - I'm not very good at it, and it's probably wrong in this spot. (If the 5 and the cueball were 6 inches to the right, I may be more inclined to play the blue.)
As I said, it would be a hybrid. But I would be sure to err on the side of the the black. If I err towards the red and go too far (leaving too little angle on the breakshot), I'd probably have to at least contemplate suicide.
It's all a matter of style though. I think Barouty aims for the red.
- Steve
P.S. Chris, you're weird, hahaha.
As I said, it would be a hybrid. But I would be sure to err on the side of the the black. If I err towards the red and go too far (leaving too little angle on the breakshot), I'd probably have to at least contemplate suicide.
It's all a matter of style though. I think Barouty aims for the red.
- Steve
P.S. Chris, you're weird, hahaha.
I'm liking the black path. Especially noticeable from the birds eye view, the black path plays along the line of position the soonest and longest making it most less speed dependent and with the most margin for error giving it the best chance for a good result.
well, I had to dig a bit further for the better perspective (I'm left-handed:smile
. So for you southpaws:
That's much more comfortable to study, and I was going to say the same Steve Lipsky already did. I like smth in between RED and BLACK. I don't like blue, first, you risk running into the break ball, second, you have to possess good feel for english or you could overdo it and end up almost straight with the pocket. Regardless of the fact the position line is always in the zone and lined up with the zone required. It's too complicated to set on this line.
Normally we don't want to go too far past the side pockets, so black leads us to a very steep angle like I said before, and too far at the same time (in case you overrun it a bit).
That said, RED (corrected towards BLACK a little) remains my choice, you can play it a foot longer than depicted and still have a workable break.
. So for you southpaws:That's much more comfortable to study, and I was going to say the same Steve Lipsky already did. I like smth in between RED and BLACK. I don't like blue, first, you risk running into the break ball, second, you have to possess good feel for english or you could overdo it and end up almost straight with the pocket. Regardless of the fact the position line is always in the zone and lined up with the zone required. It's too complicated to set on this line.
Normally we don't want to go too far past the side pockets, so black leads us to a very steep angle like I said before, and too far at the same time (in case you overrun it a bit).
That said, RED (corrected towards BLACK a little) remains my choice, you can play it a foot longer than depicted and still have a workable break.
I like the red in a perfect world - but I would err on the side of the black. If you told me to "get to the red position" - I'd probably end up in between the red and black honestly.
Marop made a very good point - black has like ZERO trouble. Unless you're afraid of angle, it's hard to argue that.
Edit: Oh my god, I didn't read all of responses before I replied and now I see I wrote verbatim what Lipsky wrote. On my honor I didn't copy. Sorry.
Marop made a very good point - black has like ZERO trouble. Unless you're afraid of angle, it's hard to argue that.
Edit: Oh my god, I didn't read all of responses before I replied and now I see I wrote verbatim what Lipsky wrote. On my honor I didn't copy. Sorry.
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With the exception of the suicide part I would have said exactly what Steve said. It might be a good sign but it also scares me. Yes, I'm weird.
I also prefer the red path over the black one. There's too much angle and distance involved with the black path.
On the blue path, if you misjudge the speed and come up short, you no longer have a viable break shot. The red path also has a easier position zone than the black path if you come up short.
On the blue path, if you misjudge the speed and come up short, you no longer have a viable break shot. The red path also has a easier position zone than the black path if you come up short.
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I don't know, but i think from the diagram that people think its more angle cut on the 5 than it actually is. At first glance i thought it was a pretty good angle, but then i realized its not..
The blue line, most people hate inside english, not much is needed on this shot, and once you pass the point you need for a break shot, you remain on the exact line for the same breakout angle for a long distance, giving a HUGE margin for speed error.
When i see people shoot this shot, usually they would try the red line, and end up getting too deep into the corner and have some outside spin, and actually cross the line needed.
If i didn't shoot the blue line, i would definitely go further up the side rail near where the black line is, as it also has a much larger margin for error, but i can't see not using the blue line.
The blue line, most people hate inside english, not much is needed on this shot, and once you pass the point you need for a break shot, you remain on the exact line for the same breakout angle for a long distance, giving a HUGE margin for speed error.
When i see people shoot this shot, usually they would try the red line, and end up getting too deep into the corner and have some outside spin, and actually cross the line needed.
If i didn't shoot the blue line, i would definitely go further up the side rail near where the black line is, as it also has a much larger margin for error, but i can't see not using the blue line.
Blue's my shoice; inside english send the cue ball perfectly down the shot line
Folks:
I have to concur wholeheartedly with themack on this one. I, as well, am going to "go against the grain" of responses to this great situational question that Blackjack proposed, and go with the blue route. Even though I didn't need to (I do these kind of setup-for-break-ball shots all the time), I just set this up on my table, and I was able to execute it 10 out of 10 times, with varying speed, and was able to get a good break-ball position each time. Even when I intentionally stroked the shot harder than my mind was telling me to, with the end result having the cue ball stop in the kitchen, I still had a workable break ball shot angle. With me, a semi-light stroke, at 2:00 on the cue ball, sent the cue ball perfectly up the shot line, and the only "margin of error" (per se) is how far from the break ball did I want the cue ball to stop? The angle, for me, was "locked in"; the only variable (again, for me) was how hard to shoot the shot? (Granted, I also happen to "like" inside english shots; there was a period of time in my pool-playing life when I'd setup inside english shots and shoot them for hours, so this experience proved invaluable to me, and they're "second nature" to me.)
Black would be my second choice. Like Marop says, at least with this shot, as long as the cue ball makes it to the second (long) rail, the cue ball is traveling down the proper shot line, instead of crossing it, like the red positional shot does. Personally, I don't like crossing the shot line if I can help it. Here there's a choice, and I'll personally opt not to cross the shot line. I'd rather be slightly short on this shot, than to overrun it and be straight-in on the break ball (worst case), or be on the wrong/opposite angle (and then have to really smash the break ball with follow and try to come off two rails into the rack).
Anyway, that's my choice and I'm stickin' widdit dammit.
-Sean
Folks:
I have to concur wholeheartedly with themack on this one. I, as well, am going to "go against the grain" of responses to this great situational question that Blackjack proposed, and go with the blue route. Even though I didn't need to (I do these kind of setup-for-break-ball shots all the time), I just set this up on my table, and I was able to execute it 10 out of 10 times, with varying speed, and was able to get a good break-ball position each time. Even when I intentionally stroked the shot harder than my mind was telling me to, with the end result having the cue ball stop in the kitchen, I still had a workable break ball shot angle. With me, a semi-light stroke, at 2:00 on the cue ball, sent the cue ball perfectly up the shot line, and the only "margin of error" (per se) is how far from the break ball did I want the cue ball to stop? The angle, for me, was "locked in"; the only variable (again, for me) was how hard to shoot the shot? (Granted, I also happen to "like" inside english shots; there was a period of time in my pool-playing life when I'd setup inside english shots and shoot them for hours, so this experience proved invaluable to me, and they're "second nature" to me.)
Black would be my second choice. Like Marop says, at least with this shot, as long as the cue ball makes it to the second (long) rail, the cue ball is traveling down the proper shot line, instead of crossing it, like the red positional shot does. Personally, I don't like crossing the shot line if I can help it. Here there's a choice, and I'll personally opt not to cross the shot line. I'd rather be slightly short on this shot, than to overrun it and be straight-in on the break ball (worst case), or be on the wrong/opposite angle (and then have to really smash the break ball with follow and try to come off two rails into the rack).
Anyway, that's my choice and I'm stickin' widdit dammit.
-Sean
IMO, the better player should favor BLACK and the weaker player should favor RED. The weaker player needs a shallower angle on the break shot to ensure they make the shot. The better player can afford a steep angle.
Steve's hybrid is the best overall.
Steve's hybrid is the best overall.
I will just give my usual WEI table disclaimer. Often, the setup of the position on an actual table looks quite different than the angles presented on the WEI. My only thought as to why this happens is that we are used to looking at a table from the side, maybe 3 feet up. The WEI has us looking straight down, which is an angle we are mostly unfamiliar with.
Therefore, when replying to threads concerning the WEI (and when designing situations myself), I can only respond to what I think the original poster was thinking when he laid down the angles. If to me it looks on the WEI like there's a pretty good angle, I'll assume it looked that way to blackjack too. It's entirely possible that once transferred to an actual table, the position looks quite different. I'll assume that would be as much of a surprise to blackjack as it would be to me.
In my mind, the blue angle is much more touchy than the red or the black. Judged slightly incorrectly one way, you bump into the object ball. Slightly incorrectly the other way, you have little or no angle. This path, to me, is more applicable when the key ball is much closer to the end rail (with the cueball moved appropriately down as well). There is less variable involved in shooting it then, since you're hitting the rail almost immediately. Going 18 inches, like you're doing in this diagram, before hitting the first rail... that's a lot of space to hit that rail a little differently than you thought you would (slightly overcutting or undercutting the key ball could change your contact with that rail by an inch).
Since another poster said he successfully executed the shot 10 out of 10, I'll assume this one definitely looks different on a real table.
- Steve