I am Truly disappointed in the future of this sport. I have been waiting and waiting for one man to appear that will take over this sport and establish a strong governing body for players. Don;t the players know that they are cutting their own throat by the shennanigans they pull. Who is your choice to lead the pool world ? Someone must step up that has the strength to do it ? Please provide your comments .
Governing Body/Who;s the man ?
- Thread starter normlook
- Start date
Same ol', same 'ol when it comes to pool in the United States.
I'm not happy with our representative to the WPA. In fact, I'm not too happy about the WPA, either. If only I could see some progress or understand what both of these organizations are doing behind the closed curtain, it would help, but for whatever reason, they have chosen to not be transparent and may not think it prudent to issue press releases or inform the general pool public about their activities, as well as their decision-making processes when it comes to important pool actions they make.
I could write a dissertation on how the BCA itself has harmed professional pool, speaking as a pool enthusiast and railbird. I think the BCA serves no purpose other than to make themselves fat. Actions speak louder than words, and they don't give a hill of beans about professional pool players, except the minute few who the BCA industry members sponsor. Those fortunate few get all the benefits and rules changed to their favor.
I'm not happy with our representative to the WPA. In fact, I'm not too happy about the WPA, either. If only I could see some progress or understand what both of these organizations are doing behind the closed curtain, it would help, but for whatever reason, they have chosen to not be transparent and may not think it prudent to issue press releases or inform the general pool public about their activities, as well as their decision-making processes when it comes to important pool actions they make.
I could write a dissertation on how the BCA itself has harmed professional pool, speaking as a pool enthusiast and railbird. I think the BCA serves no purpose other than to make themselves fat. Actions speak louder than words, and they don't give a hill of beans about professional pool players, except the minute few who the BCA industry members sponsor. Those fortunate few get all the benefits and rules changed to their favor.
I dont disagree with you as far as the sport not having a one governing body.
Right now in the US there seems to be multiple governing bodiy's, such as the APA, BCAPL, VNEA, TAP, etc but no one person governing all. Do I honestly think that will ever happen? No, too much money to be lost by certain leagues for that to happen.
Am I disappointed in the future of the game. Right now I am not, I am very excited about the future. Now I do not know him personally, but Mark Griffin seems to have structured a company (CSI) that is made up of 11 individuals that all want to make big strides in the pool world within the US.
The reason why I am saying CSI is if you just look back a few years. The CSI team has been involved in setting up or significantly helping out in so many events within the United States, 10 ball, one pocket, bar box championship, swanee, etc. These events do not include what the BCAPL (which is part of CSI) has done also with adding regional, local, and increasing National events.
So does setting up events make you a stong governing body, no I dont think so, but it has shown the integrity of the CSI team. I have never heard of one issue from any of their previouse events that would make me believe they may have an integrity problem.
So do I expect Mark Griffin and CSI to be the one person to establish a strong governing body? Yes I do, not to call you out CSI. But, can they do it alone, no way.
As far as someone should step up? Well I think that someone is each and every pool player. We as pool players have to show our support of the CSI team by assisting it in helping it grow.
I know that sounds like I'm a salesman for CSI, but IMHO, CSI is the only cooperation within the US that is actively promoting more and more pool events Nationwide for amatuers and professionals. I dont feel bad one bit about spending $15 to become a member of the BCAPL because I know it is supporting the players and people making an effort to have pool excel within the US for all caliber of players.
The BCAPL is currently what 60000 members and the other league just set the world record for most members at like 300000. Could you imagine what the pool world would be like if CSI had 5 times what it has now....it would be amazing in my opinion.
It's reflective that nobody gives a hoot anymore, Doug.
Recreational players, social shooters, amateurs, and league pool is what's happening in America today. I'm okay with that.
Professional pool is for the minute few who are sponsored by BCA industry members and can afford to attend tournaments overseas. If you're not in like Flynn with the BCA industry members, you ain't got a snowball's chance in you-know-where to keep up with the rest of the pack, though the pack of professional players today is dwindling, as most know.
I'm comfortable accepting the demise of professional pool in the States and consider it a dead fish in the water. I predicted it 5 years ago when the UPA's president jumped ship and left the stinking fish to rot while he benefitted from his connections made while in office. Thanks, BCA, for giving this man the authority to do what he did.
Hear, hear. Mark Griffin for USA and Matchroom Sports for the World.
I think Alfred E. Newman
is running pool in America right now. I'll throw my hat into the ring for Mark Griffin, although nothing ANYBODY does is going to affect me and my relationship with pool. But, if pool played by the best-of-the-best is ever going to succeed, someone with dedication/desire such as Mark Griffin has will have to take the reins.Maniac
For as long as the pros haven't had an organization I feel that some just don't want one. I believe about a half dozen of the top players really don't want one, or want one they can control 100%. Does "good ol boys" ring a bell. A lot of the ones that "call" themselves pros don't want it because they would have to pick a title...either pro or amatuer. If they called themselves pros they couldn't rob amatuer events anymore. There are a few top players that are doing fine (they think) w/o an org.
I still say that the US is just too big an area to just have one pro tour. There needs to be four tours. Pro tours East, West, North, and South. Pros could put in to be drafted to one of the four tours. The tours don't inter-play until a group of 6-12 top players from each group are determimed at the end of the season. If it takes off and players start getting sponsored you can cut it down to two areas. Johnnyt
I still say that the US is just too big an area to just have one pro tour. There needs to be four tours. Pro tours East, West, North, and South. Pros could put in to be drafted to one of the four tours. The tours don't inter-play until a group of 6-12 top players from each group are determimed at the end of the season. If it takes off and players start getting sponsored you can cut it down to two areas. Johnnyt
I believe that many players don't even think about organized pool. Many players continue to believe that hustling and scuffling winning a few bucks here and there in bars is the pinnacle of pool playing achievment. They do this by seeking to stay "under the radar". This is a very shortsighted and self defeating mentality that leads to a sad end, if you ask me.
Also, yes, It seems to me that Mark Griffin and Team CSI is about the only person and entity with any chance to lead pool into the future. Go Mark, et al!
Maybe someday...
Once one set of rules, one governing body, one top tier tour, one second tier tour and many lower feeder tours all get organized under one banner .... phew.
We could have something that would work.
We are just waiting for the great deed to be done.:sorry:
THE MAN FROM THE CROWD
Men seem as alike as the leaves on the trees,
As alike as the bees in a swarming of bees;
And we look at the millions that make up the state
All equally little and equally great,
And the pride of our courage is cowed.
Then Fate calls for a man who is larger than men --
There's a surge in the crowd -- there's a movement -- and then
There arises a man that is larger than men --
And the man comes up from the crowd.
The chasers of trifles run hither and yon,
And the little small days of small things go on,
And the world seems no better at sunset than dawn,
And the race still increases its plentiful spawn.
And the voice of our wailing is loud.
Then the Great Deed calls out for the Great Men to come,
And the Crowd, unbelieving, sits sullen and dumb --
But the Great Deed is done, for the Great Man is come --
Aye, the man comes up from the crowd.
There's a dead hum of voices, all say the same thing,
And our forefathers' songs are the songs that we sing,
And the deeds by our fathers and grandfathers done
Are done by the son of the son of the son,
And our heads in contrition are bowed.
Lo, a call for a man who shall make all things new
Goes down through the throng! See! he rises in view!
Make room for the men who shall make all things new! --
For the man who comes up from the crowd.
And where is the man who comes up from the throng
Who does the new deed and who sings the new song,
And makes the old world as a world that is new?
And who is the man? It is you! It is you!
And our praise is exultant and proud.
We are waiting for you there -- for you are the man!
Come up from the jostle as soon as you can;
Come up from the crowd there, for you are the man --
The man who comes up from the crowd.
SAM WALTER FOSS
Once one set of rules, one governing body, one top tier tour, one second tier tour and many lower feeder tours all get organized under one banner .... phew.
We could have something that would work.
We are just waiting for the great deed to be done.:sorry:
THE MAN FROM THE CROWD
Men seem as alike as the leaves on the trees,
As alike as the bees in a swarming of bees;
And we look at the millions that make up the state
All equally little and equally great,
And the pride of our courage is cowed.
Then Fate calls for a man who is larger than men --
There's a surge in the crowd -- there's a movement -- and then
There arises a man that is larger than men --
And the man comes up from the crowd.
The chasers of trifles run hither and yon,
And the little small days of small things go on,
And the world seems no better at sunset than dawn,
And the race still increases its plentiful spawn.
And the voice of our wailing is loud.
Then the Great Deed calls out for the Great Men to come,
And the Crowd, unbelieving, sits sullen and dumb --
But the Great Deed is done, for the Great Man is come --
Aye, the man comes up from the crowd.
There's a dead hum of voices, all say the same thing,
And our forefathers' songs are the songs that we sing,
And the deeds by our fathers and grandfathers done
Are done by the son of the son of the son,
And our heads in contrition are bowed.
Lo, a call for a man who shall make all things new
Goes down through the throng! See! he rises in view!
Make room for the men who shall make all things new! --
For the man who comes up from the crowd.
And where is the man who comes up from the throng
Who does the new deed and who sings the new song,
And makes the old world as a world that is new?
And who is the man? It is you! It is you!
And our praise is exultant and proud.
We are waiting for you there -- for you are the man!
Come up from the jostle as soon as you can;
Come up from the crowd there, for you are the man --
The man who comes up from the crowd.
SAM WALTER FOSS
Mark Griffin is the Man!
The real problem with getting a tour started is they always try to get the top players together and want them to agree on a format for a tour.
BIG MISTAKE; most of these guys want what's best for them and the hell with anyone else. Someone needs to take the bull by the horns and run with it. My vote would be Mark Griffin, but he needs help. I suggest Mark get together with the Seminole Tribe + one money man. How about John Mars? He has to love pool and he could put up a million dollars without blinking and eye.
Come up with a 3 year plan to have 8 to 10 tour events around the country and yearly final event in Vegas. Keep the tour in the USA, players will come. Mark has been around pool long enough as a player and business man that he can put it all together. Most important thing; Do not ask player input! Do your own thing and if they want to play they can and if not, the hell with them. There will be plenty of players in the events that a few people will emerge as stars.
ESPN can happen but the game has to be exciting. 10-ball, tight pockets, safeties all slow down the game and make it boring. Hard core players may appreciate a good safety, but to the novice, the guy missed.
9-ball, 4.5" pockets are plenty tight and ball in hand after every miss. Great shot making will make the game exciting and fit for TV. It will take leadership but it can happen.
The real problem with getting a tour started is they always try to get the top players together and want them to agree on a format for a tour.
BIG MISTAKE; most of these guys want what's best for them and the hell with anyone else. Someone needs to take the bull by the horns and run with it. My vote would be Mark Griffin, but he needs help. I suggest Mark get together with the Seminole Tribe + one money man. How about John Mars? He has to love pool and he could put up a million dollars without blinking and eye.
Come up with a 3 year plan to have 8 to 10 tour events around the country and yearly final event in Vegas. Keep the tour in the USA, players will come. Mark has been around pool long enough as a player and business man that he can put it all together. Most important thing; Do not ask player input! Do your own thing and if they want to play they can and if not, the hell with them. There will be plenty of players in the events that a few people will emerge as stars.
ESPN can happen but the game has to be exciting. 10-ball, tight pockets, safeties all slow down the game and make it boring. Hard core players may appreciate a good safety, but to the novice, the guy missed.
9-ball, 4.5" pockets are plenty tight and ball in hand after every miss. Great shot making will make the game exciting and fit for TV. It will take leadership but it can happen.
The one thing that people don't understand about this problem is that nobody recognizes or respects leadership. Everybody either wants to run the show, or they want to compete with anyone that moves in the direction of progress. Communication and cooperation go a long way, but people need to give the leadership room to grow, and an opportunity to spread their wings.
I remember one pool player calling me on the phone a few years ago, telling me that Mark Griffin had just pissed everybody off by saying that all pool players are stupid (that was paraphrased third hand information). I can only imagine the look on the guys face on the other end when he was met with dead silence from me. I was like... ok... pool players are stupid... this is news to you?
:shrug:
Leadership has to be established, and then it has to be supported by the industry and the players and the fans - not just a little bit, but across the board 100%. Until that happens, have fun on the merry-go-round.
I remember one pool player calling me on the phone a few years ago, telling me that Mark Griffin had just pissed everybody off by saying that all pool players are stupid (that was paraphrased third hand information). I can only imagine the look on the guys face on the other end when he was met with dead silence from me. I was like... ok... pool players are stupid... this is news to you?
:shrug:
Leadership has to be established, and then it has to be supported by the industry and the players and the fans - not just a little bit, but across the board 100%. Until that happens, have fun on the merry-go-round.
A few things people seem to not understand is that organizations such as tours and pool leagues and even promoters of major events are all independently owned. The APA, BCA, VNEA, TAP, etc.. have no reason and definitely no incentive to join forces for the betterment of pool. Them joining together would be like McDonald's, Wendy's and Burger King joining together to make a better French Fry. It's not going to happen so that option should be taken out of any equation when considering a leadership and or organizational chart for the betterment of the sport.
However, regional tours are the ones with the best shot at being a major player in any future US organization. But the fundamental problem of them being separate small business that compete with each other by offering different services to their players still applies. But because these are much smaller entities than the larger pool leagues and the fact that most of the tours see a need for a national organization there may be some incentive to bring them all together under 1 banner or common goal for the individual owners. The problem with this is that there would still have to be a higher authority like what the BCA used to be or should I say could have been.
So right now, we are all basically spinning our wheels even discussing this until there is a higher authority that would use the contributions from the regional tours and event promoters wisely. And by wisely I mean the BCA was a Non-Profit company run by a board of volunteers which could have made them the perfect entity to hold monies and distribute them properly without taking a cut. And to establish rules and guidelines for each tour or event to follow when it comes to game rules, entry fees, qualifications, imposing sanctions and such.
IMO, the perfect organization would be a not for profit entity run by a volunteer board who is voted in each year. The organization would have room owners, billiard companies, players, regional tours and independent promoters and eventually outside industry sponsors as members. This organization would use the monies wisely to promote televised events for the betterment of the sport. The players in these events would be supplied by the regional tours and independent promoters through there events. This organization would get the monies for the major Pro events through memberships and sponsorships and there would be an advertising trickle down effect to each regional tour and independent promoters and an up-flow of funds from the regional tours to the major organization. To help the room owners member all tour and independent events sanctioned through this organization would only be held in room member facilities. To help the billiard industry companies there would be a standard and to what cloth, balls and etc could be used at said events and a discount purchase program for the room owners to meet these standards. To me, that would be the start of a great organization. Unfortunately my research has shown that it would take about 3mil in start-up money to get things moving forward with only a 5 year plan.
With that said, if anyone has 3mil laying around that wants to get this going please send me a PM.........
PS... I am not holding my breath.
However, regional tours are the ones with the best shot at being a major player in any future US organization. But the fundamental problem of them being separate small business that compete with each other by offering different services to their players still applies. But because these are much smaller entities than the larger pool leagues and the fact that most of the tours see a need for a national organization there may be some incentive to bring them all together under 1 banner or common goal for the individual owners. The problem with this is that there would still have to be a higher authority like what the BCA used to be or should I say could have been.
So right now, we are all basically spinning our wheels even discussing this until there is a higher authority that would use the contributions from the regional tours and event promoters wisely. And by wisely I mean the BCA was a Non-Profit company run by a board of volunteers which could have made them the perfect entity to hold monies and distribute them properly without taking a cut. And to establish rules and guidelines for each tour or event to follow when it comes to game rules, entry fees, qualifications, imposing sanctions and such.
IMO, the perfect organization would be a not for profit entity run by a volunteer board who is voted in each year. The organization would have room owners, billiard companies, players, regional tours and independent promoters and eventually outside industry sponsors as members. This organization would use the monies wisely to promote televised events for the betterment of the sport. The players in these events would be supplied by the regional tours and independent promoters through there events. This organization would get the monies for the major Pro events through memberships and sponsorships and there would be an advertising trickle down effect to each regional tour and independent promoters and an up-flow of funds from the regional tours to the major organization. To help the room owners member all tour and independent events sanctioned through this organization would only be held in room member facilities. To help the billiard industry companies there would be a standard and to what cloth, balls and etc could be used at said events and a discount purchase program for the room owners to meet these standards. To me, that would be the start of a great organization. Unfortunately my research has shown that it would take about 3mil in start-up money to get things moving forward with only a 5 year plan.
With that said, if anyone has 3mil laying around that wants to get this going please send me a PM.........
PS... I am not holding my breath.
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The best of recent times is when Kevin Trudeau took the lead and starting investing real money into the billiards industry.
The leadership needed in the billiards industry has to have deep pockets, otherwise it will just be another drop in the bucket. Someone to send ripples when waves are needed.
Otherwise what it is, is what it will be.
The leadership needed in the billiards industry has to have deep pockets, otherwise it will just be another drop in the bucket. Someone to send ripples when waves are needed.
Otherwise what it is, is what it will be.
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Aside from the obvious problems Trudeaus long term problem was that he started from the top and wanted to control everything on down instead of working with existing organizations to support his big events and growing the entire industry. His plan to monopolize all aspects of his tour was financially unsustainable.
I don't think that's quite exactly what happened, IMO, but I agree that his long-term vision was flawed from the get-go.
It is not that he wanted to control everything, but more so, I believe he didn't see why he should grease the palm of the WPA because he did not recognize what they bring to the pool table, so to speak. I have to agree with Kevin Trudeau on that call.
Monopoly? Uh-uh. He infused millions of dollars into pool players' pockets, and he's still considered a pool pariah in the eyes of some. Not every pool player who competed on the IPT feels this way. In fact, some believe his events were the best pool had ever seen in its history.
I agree, though, that his tour was unsustainable. He was given bad information from the start. That was his biggest mistake, listening to his so-called "inside information." Somebody got fat feeding that line of B.S. to Kevin Trudeau.
Monopolize YES, While he did infuse millions into the players pockets he at the same time tried to monopolize the system. Example, if you were a billiard room and you wanted to hold an event you had to buy his cloth, his balls and his racks. By doing things such as this he shunned potential industry sponsors and the very people that could have helped him the most. I am not against sanctions saying which quality of cloth, balls or racks should be standardized but he went out of his way to monopolize that aspect and out of fear of being taken over or shunned out of the industry the people that could have helped him turned against him. Not that any of that mattered because he was his own worste enemy.