Has anyone ever seen an A-Joint like this? I think it is a early Huebler!!

classiccues said:
Dan,
Thanks.. and to further everyone's knowledge base, early Gina's were also mostly converted titlists, and Tad was known to make east coast cues BEFORE he made Ginaesque cues. We have had Tads that were titlist AND had the clear window in the butt sleeve with MOP inlays, from his earliest works. Martin made his own screws, Tad I believe still has the dies for this. Back then, yes, you had regional cuemakers, no internet, when someone like Bushka achieved that nationwide status it wasn't an accident.
Were there other good cues? I am sure there were. But like I said they were regional. Rocky Tillis, I hear him talked about all the time. But in NJ, I never saw one, ever. Verl Horn, I was introduced to him through Randy Andersen. but never saw a cue from him till I ordered one. Before the internet, before the Blue Books and before the Billiard Encyclopedia cuemaking was definitely a regional occupation. Those that broke those boundaries, did so on merit, and a good product.

JV
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Thanks JV, for the all the information added to this thread. It obvious you have done the Necessary research to come to the conclusions and make the statements you have made. It would be nice if others took the time to do the same, however, this is never the case in life. For what it is worth, I totally agree with your assessment, and you did not do it by only basing your comments on personal beliefs with no more substance than an opinion, again thanks.!!!!:)

Have a great day!!!!!
 
Ferraris are collectible because they won races. Les Pauls are collectable because the right rock stars played with them. Balabushkas are collectable because world champions used them to win world championships. If they were junk, why did Mosconi, Crane, Balsis, Mizerak, etc. play with them?

I'll give you a hint. It wasn't because George was paying them endorsement fees.
 
Cuaba said:
Ferraris are collectible because they won races. Les Pauls are collectable because the right rock stars played with them. Balabushkas are collectable because world champions used them to win world championships. If they were junk, why did Mosconi, Crane, Balsis, Mizerak, etc. play with them?

I'll give you a hint. It wasn't because George was paying them endorsement fees.
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Who said they were junk?
 
I don't know if anyone said junk, someone did say a piece of $hit. But anyways I found this statement to be pretty off the mark to.. "If Balabushka was still alive and making cues today, and if still making them in the same fashion, he couldn't give them away."

The reason this statement is off the mark is Balabushka was also evolving and there is no reason to think that it would have stopped evolving in 1975. But lets trade places and say lets take away everyone's fancy equipment and give them George's and see what they make. As I have been saying he made a great product with minimal equipment. You can argue and debate well, what if George had 600 other cuemakers to compete with, what if he had cnc, what if.. what if.. what if.. But thats all speculation. I prefer to work with the facts and they are he made the cue of champions. From 1960-1975 his cues were in the hands of that era's best players. He made more, with less. He was respected from coast to coast. Steve Mizerak till his death always compared his current cues to those of Balabushka. He said that Dennis Searing in his opinion made the closest cue to a Balabushka that he had ever had.

JV
 
When Balabushka cut full splice cue for beauty rings, did he tenon forearm ,handle, or just use short regester of both into buzz ring? Does anyone have Xray or photos? If no one wants to post info here, send me a pm. I've sectioned a few cues, but of course no bushkas.

I also am interested in photos of the Balabushka that was owned by B.D. Rogers and sold a few years ago after is passing down in Houston.

JV? Do you have any info on this cue ?
Thanks
 
classiccues said:
I don't know if anyone said junk, someone did say a piece of $hit. But anyways I found this statement to be pretty off the mark to.. [Iy."]"If Balabushka was still alive and making cues today, and if still making them in the same fashion, he couldn't give them awa[/I]

The reason this statement is off the mark is Balabushka was also evolving and there is no reason to think that it would have stopped evolving in 1975. But lets trade places and say lets take away everyone's fancy equipment and give them George's and see what they make. As I have been saying he made a great product with minimal equipment. You can argue and debate well, what if George had 600 other cuemakers to compete with, what if he had cnc, what if.. what if.. what if.. But thats all speculation. I prefer to work with the facts and they are he made the cue of champions. From 1960-1975 his cues were in the hands of that era's best players. He made more, with less. He was respected from coast to coast. Steve Mizerak till his death always compared his current cues to those of Balabushka. He said that Dennis Searing in his opinion made the closest cue to a Balabushka that he had ever had.

JV
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The statement "If Balabushka was still alive and making cues today, and if still making them in the same fashion, he couldn't give them away" I believe is a sound statement that I've said many times in the past and has always caused an uproar, especially with dealers and younger players who have listened to the hype for years.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that if George would have lived longer, his cues would have evolved into much better instruments. As with most cue makers, His later cues were better than his earlier ones. This, however, doesn't change the fact that they were primitive compared to today's cues and materials.

Just like you stated earlier, most cue makers sales were regional. George was hot on the East coast and that is where the predominant number of his cues were sold. Of coarse a few went to other parts of the country but the "meat and potatoes" stayed along the east coast. Just like today's cues, some makers cues are hot and everyone raves about them without actually having played with one. Often, after acquiring one, they don't keep it long as it often doesn't play as they like a cue to play. This doesn't take away or add to the cue as it was the same cue but everyone has their own tastes in the way they like a cue to play. I've talked to a number of players who said that they have or at one time had a Bushka but never liked the way that it played.

Thinking or stating that the "Color of Money" had no affect on the collector value of Balabushkas is ludicrous. They, of coarse were some what collectibles before the movie but nothing compared to after. A friend of mine who had 63 Balabushkas the last time I talked to him, told me that his collection went from being worth thousands to millions after the release of the movie.

Dick
 
It is the "Ask the Cuemaker" forum, and I think Dick answered it from a cuemaker's perspective, not a collectors. I'll never know how a 'bushka hits so I really don't care to get in the argument, but I do like Dick's straight forward responses.
 
I don't feel that a cue someone doesn't hold on to is always a bad cue, sometimes people just sell a cue because they can replace It with something different that they can play about the same speed with. That could be due to financial issues, or just for a change. On top of that I can't count how many times I've heard someone say they made a mistake selling a certain cue, and their game hadn't been the same since, so sometimes they get sold anyway.

Besides the collectable reasoning, I believe the cues that are taylored made for the player, can be the ones that ruin all other cues for them. Aleast from what I've seen, so that can also be a reason for someone holding on to a cue.

I mean there are cues out there, that may be somewhat universal, and the feel may meet in the middle, and feel great to alot of people, so alot of hype could be built on one that people generally can shoot decent with, but I don't feel you can reach everyone at the same level with the same materials & design in a cue, unless built for the player. This doesn't mean that I think a great feeling cue can't reach accross the boards though, or that every taylored build will hit paydirt.

If you build a cue for even just an average player, and It actually improves their speed over any other cue they use. They are happy and they spread the word, all their buddies or competitors can see the change, and now they want one, so the more the maker does this, the more demand there is. You do this for a high level player, especially one that travels, and there's even more word of mouth, and the farther it is spread, without the guy even endorsing the cue, because people pay attention to what the good players are using. Today with the web, that can be magnified though, yes.

How do you gauge hype, If popular on the east coast, then there must have been a basis. I have no idea how popular they were on the west coast before the movie, but there is no dought in My mind that the movie did cause more hype that may have not been directly related, but then you got to think at some point, of what hype there was before the movie, some of it must have been genuine, even if he was just a decent people person, and good at putting something in players hands that worked better for them then what they normally used. Doing that with what knowledge and equipment he had to work with back then, would be an acomplishment though. JMO, and I guess I'm little in the middle on this one, I can see truths in both sides, but I don't know enough details of went on back then to make a solid argument eitherway.:)


Greg
 
rhncue said:
As with most cue makers, His later cues were better than his earlier ones. This, however, doesn't change the fact that they were primitive compared to today's cues and materials.
Click to expand...

Primitive to who? You? Lets just say that there are still people running 150 and out with his cues. How damn primitive could they have been? 40 years plus and the cues are still going strong. Not all are collected, there are still those who play with what they have. The materials outside of the adhesives are primarily unchanged. BUT IMHO the biggest thing, the wood, was way better back then cause there weren't 600 wannabe's with $3000 dollar cnc lathes trying to make the "best" cue on the internet. Now the cues, that had better wood to begin with, have aged another 40 years. Primitive or not, he made the best cues of his time, movie or no movie.

rhncue said:
Just like you stated earlier, most cue makers sales were regional. George was hot on the East coast and that is where the predominant number of his cues were sold. Of coarse a few went to other parts of the country but the "meat and potatoes" stayed along the east coast.
Click to expand...

No, you said they weren't even heard of in California. That is a quote and a misrepresentation of the fact.

rhncue said:
Just like today's cues, some makers cues are hot and everyone raves about them without actually having played with one. Often, after acquiring one, they don't keep it long as it often doesn't play as they like a cue to play. This doesn't take away or add to the cue as it was the same cue but everyone has their own tastes in the way they like a cue to play. I've talked to a number of players who said that they have or at one time had a Bushka but never liked the way that it played.
Click to expand...

We hadn't touched on playability nor will I see every one's ideal of a monster player is different. What I notice is the people who want to knock the older cues like Gus and Georges is because they won't and will not achieve that *buzz* that you touched on in your first sentence. But in his time, he made cues for almost every prominent player, WORLD CHAMPIONS, without paying a single endorsement. Crane, Balsis, Moore, Lassiter, Mosconi, Caras, Hopkins, Mizerak, Liscotti, on and on.. they all had them.

rhncue said:
Thinking or stating that the "Color of Money" had no affect on the collector value of Balabushkas is ludicrous. They, of coarse were some what collectibles before the movie but nothing compared to after. A friend of mine who had 63 Balabushkas the last time I talked to him, told me that his collection went from being worth thousands to millions after the release of the movie.

Dick
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There were people paying $2500 ++++ for them in the early 80's as they were also willing to shell out double or more for a Gus that was available. What the Color of Money, partnered with the economic turn around of the early 90's, did for pool and collecting, Bushka's and others, has been unprecedented. But the movie helped everyone, and spurred an industry that the cuemakers of today would not have.

JV
 
emf123 said:
It is the "Ask the Cuemaker" forum, and I think Dick answered it from a cuemaker's perspective, not a collectors. I'll never know how a 'bushka hits so I really don't care to get in the argument, but I do like Dick's straight forward responses.
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"Straight forward" doesn't mean accurate or truthful. Regardless of the section it's posted in. Also if you want to get picky, why would someone take a simple question of an "A" joint and use it to slander the one person, that his industry should be kissing the a$$ of.

JV
 
Ok.. I gotta ask... invite any cuemaker to answer

Based on this statement: "This, however, doesn't change the fact that they were primitive compared to today's cues and materials."

I want to know, seriously what is better in todays cues and materials? I am asking for the reason that this is the very same response I see when a cuemaker of today tries to justify his minimalization of cues that came before him.

I am going to give you my RESPONSES first...

Materials: Wood, glue, screws, phenolic etc.. out of all them the only thing that has been advanced IMHO is glue. If anything man made materials are about the same, and the amount of good wood has declined. Don't go half cocked and say well due to stabilization we can use koa, burls, bla bla bla.. well none of that necessarily makes a cue BETTER, just prettier. I want a response that cannot be rebutted. (nelsonite is not better)

Glue: Ok.. how much better can it be? We in fact deal 20,30,40 year old cues with NO issues. Not all of them are restored, often many times in their natural state. So to say well the new adhesives are better.. just because is NOT a valid answer. Show me with proof, using longevity and examples, that they are better. Unrebuttable.. thats what we are looking for.

Assembly.. better get your essay writers out. Again, we are used to seeing cues that are OLD with no issues. So, you gotta have a response that cannot be rebutted.

Then you can tell me if all this new stuff is so great why everyone and their mother prefers a converted titlist over half the other cookie cutter cues presented here. Especially since that antiquated assembly and glue is NO GOOD.

The one thing I will give on is finishes.. they are much better today, no doubt. Thats all you get.

JV
 
I've not read this entire thread so forgive me it this has been addressed and I'm being redundant.

The cue in question is, IMHO, a Heubler because I think I've got it's twin...
 
if you don't think constuction techniques have improved and you don't think West System epoxy is better than glue then it would be hard to try and convince you.
 
I don't think just cause someone has all kinds of new tools and cnc equipment mean he's necessarily a better cuemaker and that doesn't mean his cues necessarily play better either.

It just means its simpler for that person to maybe be more consistant and maybe build faster than in the past. Somethings done today are more about whats easier for the cuemaker, or hype for selling points and not about playability of the cue

Sometimes the best playing cues are the simplest. Now we would not sell as many, if they all looked alike, but they may play better. Everything we input into the cue changes its characteristics. Full splice vs. short splice. CNC flat bottom points vs. deep vee, veneers ,inlays, coring, beauty rings, wrap, joints, Shaft wood, even different finishes can change the hit or feel of a cue. Find the right combo on a particualr cue and you have gold. Don't and you have an average or so-so hit or maybe even a pig. A dressed up,high tech pig, but still a pig. We all strive to build that perfect hit or feel, which can mean different things to different people.
But with so many variables it is sometimes hard to hit the mark, in every cue built.

Balabushka Primitive? By todays standards of equipment, I guess so. but in his time and place in history?

{Quote}"A friend of mine who had 63 Balabushkas the last time I talked to him, told me that his collection went from being worth thousands to millions after the release of the movie."

Why would someone own 63, primitive, poorly built, cues, that played poorly. I would agree they went up after the movie, but there is some reason he had 63 to begin with before "The Color of Money".

Sorry for the long post and my pea brain views, and nothing aimed at you Dick. but I did play with a couple of good Bushka's in years gone by.

And I did not mean to steal or change topic of original post.

I can only hope to build a few cues that play as well as the few I played with built by him.
I just hope they all aren't pigs, and maybe I'll hit a gold one ever now and then.

Again sorry for the long post, I just got bored and not to many good tech posts happening.
Smile Dick :)

Dan
 
And yes, the new epoxies make a major difference in dependability of construction.
 
ribdoner said:
I've not read this entire thread so forgive me it this has been addressed and I'm being redundant.

The cue in question is, IMHO, a Heubler because I think I've got it's twin...
Click to expand...

From the begining, I represented the cue as being a Very Early Huebler, due to the fact that it had a solid wood butt cap that was broken, and the tipical Huebler shaft insert.

Would you please post a photo of your's!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Craig
 
classiccues said:
Primitive to who? You? Lets just say that there are still people running 150 and out with his cues. How damn primitive could they have been? 40 years plus and the cues are still going strong. Not all are collected, there are still those who play with what they have. The materials outside of the adhesives are primarily unchanged. BUT IMHO the biggest thing, the wood, was way better back then cause there weren't 600 wannabe's with $3000 dollar cnc lathes trying to make the "best" cue on the internet. Now the cues, that had better wood to begin with, have aged another 40 years. Primitive or not, he made the best cues of his time, movie or no movie.



No, you said they weren't even heard of in California. That is a quote and a misrepresentation of the fact.



Primitive to who? You? Lets just say that there are still people running 150 and out with his cues. How damn primitive could they have been? 40 years plus and the cues are still going strong. Not all are collected, there are still those who play with what they have. The materials outside of the adhesives are primarily unchanged. BUT IMHO the biggest thing, the wood, was way better back then cause there weren't 600 wannabe's with $3000 dollar cnc lathes trying to make the "best" cue on the internet. Now the cues, that had better wood to begin with, have aged another 40 years. Primitive or not, he made the best cues of his time, movie or no movie.


There were people paying $2500 ++++ for them in the early 80's as they were also willing to shell out double or more for a Gus that was available. What the Color of Money, partnered with the economic turn around of the early 90's, did for pool and collecting, Bushka's and others, has been unprecedented. But the movie helped everyone, and spurred an industry that the cuemakers of today would not have.

JV
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Let's start.

"No, you said they weren't even heard of in California. That is a quote and a misrepresentation of the fact."

Joe, your grabbing at straws.I did say this but you know as well as I what I meant by it. That Georges cues were not well known or popular on the West Coast. I'm sure a few were sold but there were probably 50 or 100 Harvey Martins sold for each Bushka.

"Primitive to who? You? Lets just say that there are still people running 150 and out with his cues. How damn primitive could they have been? 40 years plus and the cues are still going strong. Not all are collected, there are still those who play with what they have. The materials outside of the adhesives are primarily unchanged. BUT IMHO the biggest thing, the wood, was way better back then cause there weren't 600 wannabe's with $3000 dollar cnc lathes trying to make the "best" cue on the internet. Now the cues, that had better wood to begin with, have aged another 40 years. Primitive or not, he made the best cues of his time, movie or no movie."

Now, have you any verification on who these people are that are still running 150 and out with his cues today? You say the wood was way better back then. Just what evidence do you have that the converted house cues had so much better wood? The butts were and still are usually made with rain forest woods. This has not changed. How about the Maples. They aren't rain forest wood but second growth Maple. Probably not as good as virgin old growth Maple but never-the-less it's the same Maple that was available to George as the old growth was cleared in the 1800's. Now you say this "better" wood has aged another 40 years. Does this make it a "better" wood? I would think not as it has 40 more years to dry out especially since they had such limited finish on them to start with. As far as the best cues of his era. I think that should be in your opinion and by the way, just which Bushka's were the best of his era in your opinion, the Brunswick/Bushkas, the Spain/Bushkas, or the Szamboti/Bushkas since we don't have any Bushka/Bushkas?

You named a number of champion players who had Bushkas. You are probably right but I'm sure many of them had many different cues. Just how many may I ask used a Bushka to win a world championship? If they are the greatest thing to come down the pike since white bread then why has no one won a championship with one since the Miz?

You stated that cuemakers should be kissing Georges a$$. For what reason would that be? What great new proccess did George develop that the industry should be so indebted? Converting h/cs? Already done. Put a joint into a cue? Already done. Find a better way to make spliced points? Oh, I forgot, he couldn't make his own. How about a great, protective finish? I doubt it. Ah, I know who should be indebted - used cue dealers as they are the ones who are making the most proffit off of George's talents.

Dick
 
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I Love You, Dick!

rhncue said:
"...I think that should be in your opinion and by the way, just which Bushka's were the best of his era in your opinion, the Brunswick/Bushkas, the Spain/Bushkas, or the Szamboti/Bushkas since we don't have any Bushka/Bushkas?"
Click to expand...


(Please don't pull a dead mans' pants down, you might see his Bushka-bushka-bushka!)
 
I'll Take Old Scholl Hand Built Over New School Cnc Crap Any Day.

The Old Shaft Wood Is Better Than The New Shaft Wood............ No Doubt In My Mind..... The Worst Things To Ever Happen To Cues, imo, Are Cnc Floating Inlays, And Bleach White Shaft Wood.
 
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