heres a thought

john schmidt

john schmidt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
just one time i would like to see this.the joss tour,florida tour,upa tour,viking tour,pechauertour,etc etc and the countless individual promoters come together and put on one big tourney. i guess my point is the ancient pyramids were biult by thousands working together. can you imagine the apa,bca,upa,wpa,and the other 50 small tours and other single promoters coming together.we would have a pro tour and amatuer system to get to the pros that is so strong it would be sick.i know it will never happen but if it did things would get done big time and in a hurry.by the way if i was putting on a tourney i would have the promoter post money in advance and if he wouldnt then no tourney.just a thought.i know im oversimplifying by saying all the tours and orgs need to come together but they do.until then propool is going to be a joke .do you know how many tables ,sticks gloves etc companies would sell if johnny archer made 500,000 a year.parents would put tables in their house and kids all over country would want to play pool for living.but when kids and their families find out pro tourneys pay 10000 for first they tell their kids your grounded if i catch you at poolhall.they then drop them off at golf course.take care
 
people always talk about all the various tours getting together and forming one big huge tour but that's asking a lot.

but actually if they were to all put on one big individual tournament, just as a one off, maybe that would be feasible? just as a taster of what could be.

but thinking about it surely a big tournament would be achieveable just as a one off thing? not a full blown tour. just one tournament. it would be cool.
 
I really believe it needs to start from the top - down. Once the pro tour(s) situation pans out and improves, then the regional tours can act as qualifiers for the pro tour, hence building almost a "career path" towards being a professional pool player. This is happening on the womens side. The Tiger Tour offers qualifiers for the WPBA events, but they only do that because the WPBA has its act together. The benefit for professionals like yourself is that now there would be a "unification" from all these regional tours and the sponsorship money could then be filtered into the professional events. The regional tours would act almost like a "minor leagues" and give money and prospects to the pro tour. I haven't thought the whole business plan through yet, just talking out of my a$$.
 
john schmidt said:
just one time i would like to see this.the joss tour,florida tour,upa tour,viking tour,pechauertour,etc etc and the countless individual promoters come together and put on one big tourney. i guess my point is the ancient pyramids were biult by thousands working together. can you imagine the apa,bca,upa,wpa,and the other 50 small tours and other single promoters coming together.we would have a pro tour and amatuer system to get to the pros that is so strong it would be sick.i know it will never happen but if it did things would get done big time and in a hurry.by the way if i was putting on a tourney i would have the promoter post money in advance and if he wouldnt then no tourney.just a thought.i know im oversimplifying by saying all the tours and orgs need to come together but they do.until then propool is going to be a joke .do you know how many tables ,sticks gloves etc companies would sell if johnny archer made 500,000 a year.parents would put tables in their house and kids all over country would want to play pool for living.but when kids and their families find out pro tourneys pay 10000 for first they tell their kids your grounded if i catch you at poolhall.they then drop them off at golf course.take care
Click to expand...

I think that's the right idea for where pool needs to go, it's just going to be awfully hard to work out the logistics to get it off the ground, without any of the promoters and tour directors losing their a$$es in the process.

-Andrew
 
I cant remember all the times I have told someone that I was going to watch a pro pool tournament and the layman says, "what do they win?" when I say 10k for first and they learn that its the real pros, like the best in the usa/world playing...they always go "hunh?" "thats it?". One guy recently even commented to me..."jeez near dead last place at the Doral tournament (big PGA event here in Miami) paid out more than that!". :(

Maybe one event that could be put on is a National tournament that has the top 5 players from all the regional tours. There would be the issue of where t get the money from and how to organize it, but it would be interesting to see how each regional tour does playing against the best from the other regional events.
 
Glad to hear this from one of the bigs in the game. All major sports started off fractioned, but at some point realized that to have success they must unify. Can you imagine a 4 region superleague? Split it into N/S/E/W. With all the sanctions combined, you could afford to build designated pool halls with arena seating and no friggin slot machines pinging away in the background. Impossible? This is the USA baby, nothings impossible here. All it takes is cash, leadership, and the desire to make it work. Pool was bigger than baseball in the not so distant past, it's time to set self gratification and glory aside and bring this game back to the front where it belongs. Think Nascar got where it is by refusing to leave the dirt tracks? I only hope more pros come forward and vocalize their desire to grow as John did. Step to the front John, and thank you.
 
john schmidt said:
just one time i would like to see this.the joss tour,florida tour,upa tour,viking tour,pechauertour,etc etc and the countless individual promoters come together and put on one big tourney. i guess my point is the ancient pyramids were biult by thousands working together. can you imagine the apa,bca,upa,wpa,and the other 50 small tours and other single promoters coming together.we would have a pro tour and amatuer system to get to the pros that is so strong it would be sick.
Click to expand...


Wow John, what an original idea. I wish I could work on putting something together like that.

For more information on this subject please visit:
Associated Tour Systems US Pro Tour - Here's the Planhttp://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=98527

Mj

Here you go John. This is what I have been working on since 1994. I have only provided the basic fundamentals of the outline of the system below. It is complete with 8 full pages of information along with projected revenues and expenses. if anyone wants to back it and you can be prove to have the interest and financial means please call me at your convenience. Mj

To Create, Sponsor and Sanction a US Pro Billiard Tour

Proposed by R. Michael ?Mike? Janis, a representative of 8002007665, Inc. on February 6th, 2008 to the Billiard Congress of America?s Board of Directors. All rights to the following ideas and concepts included in this proposal are retained as property of 8002007665, Inc. and may not be transferred, transmitted, copied or used in any way without the express written consent of 8002007665, Inc. or its representative R. Michael Janis.


Fundamental Purposes Of This Proposed System

A: To provide a clear path for all players to earn professional status in North America and to advance to the WPA events through the Associated Tour System as the governing body of cue sports in North America.

B: To forward the goals of the Associated Tour System and the WPA with respect to promoting a standardized rule system.

C: To enhance the membership of the Associated Tour System by encouraging new and returning members.

D: To inspire everyone in the billiard community to support the Associated Tour System and its members.

E: To provide a focal point for the entire billiard industry to support and benefit from.

F: To create a solid framework for which the sport of billiards can build upon and meet the above stated goals for the next 5 years.

The Above Stated Goals Will Be Achieved Through The Following Avenues

Re: Article A:

A: To provide a clear path for all players to earn professional status in North America and to advance to the WPA events through the Associated Tour System as the governing body of cue sports in North America.

This clear path will be as follows; All players regardless of their current status will be required to begin their eligibility path by participating in existing and newly created regional tour events. Once a player has qualified through a regional tour event that player will be eligible to participate in the ATS US Pro Tour events. Player rankings from their participation in the ATS US Pro Tour will then allow them to move forward and participate as the North American contingents in WPA events.

This clear and concise path will benefit all current players while at the same time encouraging new participants in our sport by providing them a means to a goal.
 
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john schmidt said:
just one time i would like to see this.the joss tour,florida tour,upa tour,viking tour,pechauertour,etc etc and the countless individual promoters come together and put on one big tourney. i guess my point is the ancient pyramids were biult by thousands working together. can you imagine the apa,bca,upa,wpa,and the other 50 small tours and other single promoters coming together.we would have a pro tour and amatuer system to get to the pros that is so strong it would be sick.i know it will never happen but if it did things would get done big time and in a hurry.by the way if i was putting on a tourney i would have the promoter post money in advance and if he wouldnt then no tourney.just a thought.i know im oversimplifying by saying all the tours and orgs need to come together but they do.until then propool is going to be a joke .do you know how many tables ,sticks gloves etc companies would sell if johnny archer made 500,000 a year.parents would put tables in their house and kids all over country would want to play pool for living.but when kids and their families find out pro tourneys pay 10000 for first they tell their kids your grounded if i catch you at poolhall.they then drop them off at golf course.take care
Click to expand...

John, I think your thoughts are on the right track 100%. But, I don't believe you could get all the tours to work together on anything to be honest, there is to much at stake for them individually. Something along the lines of what you suggest could be great for pool, but I think it would have to be started from scratch with several people working together in the interest of pool only, and not $$ signs for the organizers and directors, but $$ signs only for the players. I also feel it would take a well known and respected person to lead the organization, a name like ummm....John Schmidt :)
 
Building bridges

I think as a start, the Pro tours / UPA could offer paid spots in qualifiers to top finishers in the major amature leagues and tournaments. In return, the leagues themselves will have incentive to promote the pro tours.

Right now the brass ring for most league players is some cash and maybe a trip to vegas or some other regional tournament, if players had a chance to earn spots on pro tours this may truly result in a feeder system to bring new players into pro status.

Right now, you'd be hard pressed to find a league player that can name 3 pro players, or even know who Efren is.
 
Let's do it!

Well, I am ready to do it. I have 46 years in playing, running local type tournaments, etc, a couple of degrees, lots of business experience.

I propose a 'new' organization:

USBO - United States Billiard Organization
with 6 regional branches reporting and coordinating with the main office.
(Northwest, Western, North Central, Midwest, Northeastern, Southeastern)

1) Establish goals, guidelines, and by-laws for the advancement of Billiards in the United States.
2) Work to bring other organizations into the group, coordinating their goals with the USBO.
3) Develop a ladder of natural progression from youth leagues and competiion into adult competition into semi-pro level into professional levels. (Which includes establishing [conforming] tours at each level
to USBO guidelines).
4) Define proposed reward levels for each level of competition.

Just off the top of my head, but these things can be hammered out with about 6 good people spearheading the drive.

Notice the name is just billiards to also include all cuesports.

With the internet and email, individuals can be at different physical locations to do this.

I have several ideas for leagues, tournaments, handicapping (if necessary), that I have worked on for years.

I am ready and willing. I am familiar with long range planning, business plans, and WBS (Work Breakdown Structures), and I am considered an expert in Computers.
 
We can't even get regional tours to work together right now to make sure that they don't schedule on top of each other.

We have a LLLOOONNNGGGG way to go before we can get everyone together working towards what we should all be working towards.

Mike
 
AzHousePro said:
We can't even get regional tours to work together right now to make sure that they don't schedule on top of each other.

We have a LLLOOONNNGGGG way to go before we can get everyone together working towards what we should all be working towards.

Mike
Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth!
 
What I could never understand, is we have so many independently wealthy people that attend all the pro level tournaments every year, and we know for a fact that a few of them are multimillionaires.

I personally gotta say.. If I won the lottery for 15 million+.. (After taxes) I would hire Jay or Mike Janis (if they were willing to be hired) to design, and run a series of tournaments, giving the pros a number of tournaments to go to with a good payout.

I'd take a million or two for myself, and the other millions would earn about 1.2 to 1.5 million a year, from investments. I would take that money, find the biggest pool halls in different parts of the country, and add 30K per tournament for about 15-20 tournaments, and add 150K to a season finale.

I would coordinate my schedule with other big tournaments in the U.S and overseas. This type of setup, I think, would provide the pros with MORE than enough for the top 30-40 players to make a decent living.

Heck, I might even consider making requirements that you must retain residence in the U.S. for a certain number of months out of the year to participate in the tour.

Going back to my intial point.. We all have heard stories of pool players coming into ridiculous money like this.. Either through business or lottery, or gambling in Vegas.. And then what?

I understand they are free to spend their money however they want. I also understand that some DO sponsor some big added money in a couple tournaments. I just find it unusual that no pool player has ever made enough money to set up some sort of foundation that provides for added money to keep pro tournament/regional events going long term.

I know it would be one of my first priorities if I ever came into millions, after setting up a MODEST nest egg for myself. Pool has basically been my self identity since I was 18, and I would want to give back to the best players, so they can continue plying their trade.

Keep in mind, this is a WILDLY optimistic plan. Even a few million set aside could sponsor 7-10 tournaments per year, with GOOD added money, which would GREATLY improve the lot of some of America's pros.

I guess none of the millionaire fans of the game loves the game enough to do that.

Hmmmppppfhhh. :D :D :D

Russ
 
hi

what i mean is i dont want to try and travel to 40 tourneys a year that are 2 thousand added.also dont want one tourney thats 400,000 added once a year.we need about 10 tourneys that are 50,000 -100,000 added.that way your traveling costs are not through the roof.
 
john schmidt said:
what i mean is i dont want to try and travel to 40 tourneys a year that are 2 thousand added.also dont want one tourney thats 400,000 added once a year.we need about 10 tourneys that are 50,000 -100,000 added.that way your traveling costs are not through the roof.
Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth! :(

JAM
 
AzHousePro said:
We can't even get regional tours to work together right now to make sure that they don't schedule on top of each other.

We have a LLLOOONNNGGGG way to go before we can get everyone together working towards what we should all be working towards.

Mike
Click to expand...

Mike, I am taking the liberty of copying my post from the BCA Letter thread because this one is getting more action.

Bottom line...the restructuring of the pro tour industry wouldn't have to take that long to accomplish if they players would UNITE...and will NEVER take place if they do not.

Regards,
Jim
_____________________________________________________________

Thanks for the post. Very interesting.

But as I stated in the UPA-related threads, I don't have a dog in this hunt so I can say without taking any sides, that it is a sad state of affairs that there is such disunity within the men's pro pool industry.

At the end of the day though, it is the players themselves who have to shoulder the untimate blame because no governing body or pro tour operator can possibly exist without the participation of the players.

The fact that the players themselves are disunited is the prime cause of the industry being disunited.

It does not HAVE to be that way as the WPBA has been proving for a few decades.

But the men let KT get away with a million dollar+ air barrel and then gladly agree to play in his 2 player challenges for money (net of travel expenses) that shouldn't motivate them to travel past their own mail boxes!

What is up with THAT???

Then they pony up to the Arizona event with NO CLUE whether the promoter could pay off and when they got stiffed, the only public outcry I have heard came from JAY HELFERT...without whom I suspect the current money recovery action wouldn't exist!

Rather, their motto ought to be...YOU DON'T POST, WE DON'T PLAY...but the sad truth is that the men are so disunited and needy of money, that they probably HOPE that "the other guy" boycotts the events so that the guys who do show up have a better chance of winning...and if they don't get paid...oh well.


Bottom line...the ills of the male pro tour industry will NEVER....EVER...improve unless and until the PLAYERS bury all the hatchets and abandon their "lone wolf" mentalities and UNITE.

THEY should make the rules under which the tour operators must function...not the other way around!

The old saying is that the Golden Rule is that the guy with the gold makes the rules...but let me tell ya something.

If no one will sell anything to the guy who has the gold...what good is it?

And it would not take a large army to pull of the coup. There are about 50 players IN THE WHOLE WORLD who, if they UNITED...AND STUCK TO IT...could form a new association that would:

1. Require minimum prize money.
2. Issue their own Rule Sets for the games to be played.
3. Issue their own regulations as to the way their events will be managed and conducted.
4. Ban player participation in events not sanctioned by their organization.
5. Create an array of licensed merchandise.
6. Arrange for group health care coverage.
7. Do Team events (like the Mosconi..which is INTERESTING!)
8. Do Joint events with the WPBA and don't squabble with them as you HAVE done re: getting a higher share of the purse because you are stronger players. Hey...their TV ratings are just as high as yours!!!!

And about 50 other issues.

NONE of the above are my ideas guys....that is the way it is DONE by the people who know what they're doing.

YOU GUYS can tell the BCA, UPA, WPA, Viking,...or any other organization (with all due respect to them all) what to do and how to do it or BUTT OUT!

And some of them MIGHT butt out but what have you lost when you don't much in the first place???

The FACT that pool is one of the most played (if not THE most played) participant sport in the United States and yet the pro industry limps along like a wounded duck IS JUST GOOFEY!!!!

Either UNITE into an organization that has some teeth...and some STONES...or you deserve what you get which, for the vast majority of you ain't much!

And finally...you know who should run it?

JAY HELFERT (who, for the record, I have met personally only once for about 30 seconds) but whose reputation and pool industry skills are as obvious as they are legendary.

Sorry for the rant.....but I CARE.

Regards,
Jim
 
Uniting the regional tours...

Here's the tough part.

The regional tours are not owned by the regions, and they are not owned by their tour directors. They are owned by sponsors that have invested in those tours. They can choose to do what they want with those tours, regardless of how bad unity is needed in our sport. I found that out 4 years ago when I tried the same thing.

The solution isn't combining regional tours. The solution exists in one of 2 scenarios:

1) We create a new organization to represent our sport in North America
2) The BCA steps up to the plate and provides leadership

I lean towards #1, where Mike Janis is for #2. We both have the same agenda, and we both understand what needs to happen.

At this point in time, we have to look at the complete picture. Many people have told me over and over that the solution is money.

The solution is not money.

The IPT was well financed and it still failed. If all we needed was money, then some of the wealthy people on this forum, and in and around our game would invest their money in pool. They aren't doing that. Next time you meet one of the wealthy people, ask them why.

It comes down to work ethic, self responsibility, and maturity. Every single day, every player should be out there doing their best to promote the game of pool. 90% of the players aren't doing that. Half of them don't roll out of bed until after 2PM - John, you know these guys too and you know I'm not making that up.

For the game to achieve success,popularity, exposure, and big money, everybody has to work their ass off every day - EVERYBODY. Not just Jay Helfert or Mark Griffin, or Mike Janis - EVERYBODY.

We didn't end up in this sad situation overnight. We won't get out of it overnight - and anyone that tells you that we will is lying to you. This is going to take 100% cooperation, hard work, determination, and some people might get left behind in the process.

Pool needs people that are willing to put in the hours and the energy and their heart into creating something that will be attractive to sponsors and fans. We need to quit catering to the players and start catering to the people that matter more - THE SPONSORS. When a sponsor makes a profit on their investment into one of our events, then we'll be in a position to ask for something. Until then, the sponsors are tossing away money so that the players can play and collect. The sponsors aren't making money.

That's why players don't get paid.

That's why we're in worse shape than we were 3 years ago.

That's why everything needs to change.

All of these little worthless Napoleans running around pool building their little empires - their blood supply needs to be cut off at the jugular. It can be done quite easily if the players stopped supporting these people abruptly - but some have sold their souls in the process, so don't hold your breath waiting for their demise. I am not afraid of any of the little worthless Napoleans and nobody else should be either.

If the money isn't guaranteed or held in escrow for at least 30-60 days prior to an event - don't play in the damn thing. If you haven't been paid from one UPA sanctioned event, don't play in another one of their events until you've been paid. It won't be easy for some people to do that, but it's necessary if you want to see things change.

As God as my witness, the next event will have a full field. That's a perfect example of the lack of unity that exists in all areas of the game.
 
Fantastic post David!

Blackjack said:
This is going to take 100% cooperation, hard work, determination, and some people might get left behind in the process.

Pool needs people that are willing to put in the hours and the energy and their heart into creating something that will be attractive to sponsors and fans. We need to quit catering to the players and start catering to the people that matter more - THE SPONSORS. When a sponsor makes a profit on their investment into one of our events, then we'll be in a position to ask for something. Until then, the sponsors are tossing away money so that the players can play and collect. The sponsors aren't making money.
Click to expand...

The snipped portion above boils it down quite nicely for me. Cooperation, not confrontation (or Napoleanic empires as you so deftly put it) is the key. Players, promoters and industry working together to come up with sponsorhip $$$.

We all want to see the players make more money. That's only going to come from sponsorhip which will only be achieved by working with a common goal in mind. That common goal is a truly PROFESSIONAL tour system.

Golfers don't make millions because of the benificence of golf enthusiasts. They make millions because Buick, and Sprint, and Accenture and countless other big name companies can also make money off of it.

So where to start? I don't know. But whether you or Mike janis is on the right track (or some other yet defined plan comes about) I'm more than willing to support you guys. My money's all tied up but I can make phone calls, stuff envelopes, whatever.

I'm feeling that there is building impetus for MAJOR change in men's professional pool in the US and that there is enough energy and resources right here on this forum to have a positive effect.

Who's with me?!?

MM.....with visions of Bluto running into the hall with all of Delta house in tow..
 
TAP...TAP...except where noted:


Blackjack said:
Uniting the regional tours...

Here's the tough part.

The regional tours are not owned by the regions, and they are not owned by their tour directors. They are owned by sponsors that have invested in those tours. They can choose to do what they want with those tours, regardless of how bad unity is needed in our sport. I found that out 4 years ago when I tried the same thing.

The solution isn't combining regional tours. The solution exists in one of 2 scenarios:

1) We create a new organization to represent our sport in North America
2) The BCA steps up to the plate and provides leadership

I lean towards #1, where Mike Janis is for #2. We both have the same agenda, and we both understand what needs to happen.

At this point in time, we have to look at the complete picture. Many people have told me over and over that the solution is money.

The solution is not money.

The IPT was well financed and it still failed.

No it wasn't. It was not even funded sufficiently to pay out even 3 events...if memory serves. In truth, it was badly UNDERFUNDED.

If all we needed was money, then some of the wealthy people on this forum, and in and around our game would invest their money in pool. They aren't doing that. Next time you meet one of the wealthy people, ask them why.

No need to ask because the answer is obvious. The players as an entity are in a state of utter disarray and no one with any brains is going to invest in an industry BASED on people who cannot or will not join together with a CLEAR and IRON-CLAD set of goals.

But you are correct. Money is NOT the only answer. The only answer is money PLUS a united group of players who promulate their OWN rules and who elect their OWN management (I don't think there is a single touring pro on the PGA board).



It comes down to work ethic, self responsibility, and maturity. Every single day, every player should be out there doing their best to promote the game of pool. 90% of the players aren't doing that. Half of them don't roll out of bed until after 2PM - John, you know these guys too and you know I'm not making that up.

For the game to achieve success,popularity, exposure, and big money, everybody has to work their ass off every day - EVERYBODY. Not just Jay Helfert or Mark Griffin, or Mike Janis - EVERYBODY.

We didn't end up in this sad situation overnight. We won't get out of it overnight - and anyone that tells you that we will is lying to you. This is going to take 100% cooperation, hard work, determination, and some people might get left behind in the process.

Pool needs people that are willing to put in the hours and the energy and their heart into creating something that will be attractive to sponsors and fans. We need to quit catering to the players and start catering to the people that matter more - THE SPONSORS. When a sponsor makes a profit on their investment into one of our events, then we'll be in a position to ask for something. Until then, the sponsors are tossing away money so that the players can play and collect. The sponsors aren't making money.

That's why players don't get paid.

That's why we're in worse shape than we were 3 years ago.

That's why everything needs to change.

All of these little worthless Napoleans running around pool building their little empires - their blood supply needs to be cut off at the jugular. It can be done quite easily if the players stopped supporting these people abruptly - but some have sold their souls in the process, so don't hold your breath waiting for their demise. I am not afraid of any of the little worthless Napoleans and nobody else should be either.

If the money isn't guaranteed or held in escrow for at least 30-60 days prior to an event - don't play in the damn thing. If you haven't been paid from one UPA sanctioned event, don't play in another one of their events until you've been paid. It won't be easy for some people to do that, but it's necessary if you want to see things change.

As God as my witness, the next event will have a full field. That's a perfect example of the lack of unity that exists in all areas of the game.
Click to expand...
 
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