How do you think pool can be saved across the USA?
- Thread starter Lock N Load
- Start date
i know what you meant, but you probably should have said "professional pool" or something along those lines....
because billiards and pool in general dont need to be "saved" per say, they aren't going anywhere. you could tear down every public room in the country - and all that will do is drive the sale of more home tables...
now pro pool on the other hand, needs an enema, a bath, a haircut, a new suit and some shiny shoes
It would be nice if it happened.Leagues generate a little money and theirs a lot of them out there.I think a lot of people would support them.
This post says it all. I could add more but you're right on target! Every aspect of the pool world on the so called professional scene from the promoters on down screams half ass(and that's being nice as I can).
Last edited:
Along these same lines is the old model of what pool player is and what pool is really about has to die also.
I'm a good example. I consider myself a returnee to playing pool. I played way back in the late 60's and early 70's but never played for real money nor did the hang out in pool rooms.
Fast forward to about 5-6 years ago, I started playing again. Mostly for something to do other than going to a bar to drink and play on 7 ft tables. I still don't play much for money. This is gonna sound corny, I play for the love of the game, the beauty of shot making. It is a game that punishes you for not being in the moment. Pool will humble in a heart beat and then reward you the next.
Anyway, the point being, currently there is no active marketing of getting new people to play. New people being kids, seniors, couples, family's, groups events.
Another is what defines a pool room. This is what I consider a pool room http://www.google.com/maps?layer=c&...ce-image-link&cd=1&resnum=2&ved=0CAwQ2hQoADAB
No bar, just beer, no dance floor, clean, well maintained place. Oh and non smoking. This places brings in a wide range of customers from recreational, couples on dates, families, dads with kids, to money matches.
Then there are what I call bars with pool tables. Not the same as a pool room.
The overall old imagine of pool has to die. This is the imagine that is portrayed in the Color of Money. Not a positive thing about pool is in that movie.
The future of pool is outside the current target market of money players, hustlers, gamblers and pro players.
There needs to be more pool rooms, not bars with tables. There needs to be associations of room owners who's goals are to promote pool to new markets. A good example is the guy on here that has a school program going but is having a hard time with rooms hosting the students. To me, this is a room owner shooting themselves in the foot in terms of future growth. However, I believe those places to be bars with tables and not the type of room I posted.
For any business to grow, new markets need to be explored, a customer base that keeps expanding is critical, and provide a quality service or product. Simple.
Pro pool will never grow if there is no one wants to play pool. And with the current state of pro pool, why would a new player want to invest so much time and money on some thing that really doesn't resemble anything professional in terms of how an event is run. Professionalism is all about attitude, not money.
Simple... Reality TV
Ok, I glanced through this thread and didn't see my idea, so forgive me if it was already said. Everything these days is Reality TV. Think of what things are out there. I mean really, how interesting is crabbing & lobstering, armorers making guns, loggers, and digging for gold? How about surviving and preparedness, searching for big foot, car repossessions and meter maids. I mean honestly, none of that stuff is too interesting, but Reality TV makes it pretty interesting to the viewer. They do it by adding a lot of drama, suspense, and even romance at times. Pool has tons of drama already and suspense and romance are easy to add.
Whether it is some competition type of show where people get eliminated, following a few people on the road gambling, or a combination of both, it could easily become a very popular show. Of course, depending on how it is done depends on the image sent to the viewer. Either way, pool would be out there in the spotlight and on people’s minds more. If the show shows a friendlier side maybe more people would play, of course the dark side would reach more viewers.
Ok, I glanced through this thread and didn't see my idea, so forgive me if it was already said. Everything these days is Reality TV. Think of what things are out there. I mean really, how interesting is crabbing & lobstering, armorers making guns, loggers, and digging for gold? How about surviving and preparedness, searching for big foot, car repossessions and meter maids. I mean honestly, none of that stuff is too interesting, but Reality TV makes it pretty interesting to the viewer. They do it by adding a lot of drama, suspense, and even romance at times. Pool has tons of drama already and suspense and romance are easy to add.
Whether it is some competition type of show where people get eliminated, following a few people on the road gambling, or a combination of both, it could easily become a very popular show. Of course, depending on how it is done depends on the image sent to the viewer. Either way, pool would be out there in the spotlight and on people’s minds more. If the show shows a friendlier side maybe more people would play, of course the dark side would reach more viewers.
The major pool promoters, vendors, etc. should focus on the college students. Upgrade the rec room tables. Sponsor tournaments in the schools. Hold exhibition matches on campus with known pros. Have liaisons with the university billiard student clubs.
The college years are a prime period to attract young players to the sport. Table rates are normally cheaper at the rec rooms, so playing pool is an affordable recreation for many students. And who wouldn't mind extra lessons in physics and geometry?
The industry has to approach this like how the restaurants and credit card companies make inroads into campuses. These days it's normal to spot logos of Pepsi, Pizza Hut, and VISA in college campuses, but where are the Diamond, Brunswick, McDermott, Viking, etc. logos?
The college years are a prime period to attract young players to the sport. Table rates are normally cheaper at the rec rooms, so playing pool is an affordable recreation for many students. And who wouldn't mind extra lessons in physics and geometry?
The industry has to approach this like how the restaurants and credit card companies make inroads into campuses. These days it's normal to spot logos of Pepsi, Pizza Hut, and VISA in college campuses, but where are the Diamond, Brunswick, McDermott, Viking, etc. logos?
I wrote another novel ... grab a snack.
There are a few real gems in this thread that deserve more attention. Some of them have been discussed before, in separate posts, and skipped over or pushed aside by the latest scandal (this week it's Shanelle/CW, next week, who knows).
We sometimes complain about the ADD generation but some are doing it right here in this thread by sidetracking the point. And don't forget middle-agers, the "old-timers" used to say we were disrespectful too. Times change, and I don't like the, "Whatever, I'm just sayin'" generation either but someday puberty will come to them.
We’ve had enough threads about what makes a good pool-hall and not a nightclub with pool tables before to see what we want and what works. The problem is it doesn’t apply to every town; there’s no standard model that fits everywhere. Sometimes we have to deal with what we have and by supporting the “right” places you, the regular player, can enforce change with your wallets.
We know what we want:
- Good equipment (this is a always #1 every time it is discussed)
- Good menu/full bar (Sundries, for owners, are where it’s at)
- Good staff (“no I won’t turn it down” doesn’t attract players, it attracts thugs)
- Good prices (table time will not make anyone a millionaire)
- Extras (cue repair/sales (even if from mail-order), magazines, etc)
If it doesn’t make sense, take the “pool” out of the “pool-hall”. Go find your local sports bar/tavern/pub/whatever, sit down, have a pint and just watch. See what nights are the busiest, if there are deals on, is there a lot of food sold, how do the staff dress, etc. Go to a nice restaurant and do the same. Look at the customers, are they well-to-do? What are the well-to-dos buying? Is the music deafening? Even in a small town, there’s a lot to see and learn from because well-to-do in Anytown, USA, is not the same as well-to-do in Anycity, USA. See what’s going on and you’ll know what will/won’t work right now.
Once you have an idea, now you can talk to the local owner (or your wife if you’re the owner) and have an intelligent conversation on what will work for your place. Instead of getting sidetracked by CW’s latest insult to pool, we can get an idea of where to go.
Now for the important parts:
Please, for the love pool, kick the asshats out. Refund 50% of their entry, or 100%, or whatever. Stop letting them keep pool down. The controversy alone will generate interest and at the same time bring the overall level of quality up. Since we like to compare to other sports … first offense – yellow Card and a loss of game. Second: red card and a free escort to the door.
If you don’t have a collar, could I recommend a fine rental golf-shirt? No? Red card.
And yes, I don’t play in league for the above reason.
Maybe someday, for now, clean it up first.
Loved your whole post, but I concentrate on this point. This is key. Not 8-ball on baby tables. 8-ball on 9’ with 4.25” (or smaller) pockets. This is what people know, relate to, understand, and pay attention to.
Yes, please. Just don’t make it USA-specific because it limits the scope right away. My two favorite things (in the latter, my only like) about the IPT and the ABP are the logos. Simple, easy-to-recognize. When I see the PGA logo, I know it’s golf. Start here, marketing 101; define your target market and make it recognizable to them. It seems small, but here’s a key element, and like the sport itself, you’re nothing without a solid foundation.
Did you come with ways that worked? I’m thinking the cost of space and electricity make it not possible for pool to survive on it’s own without the extras. I’d be interested in what ideas you owners came up with.
Two very interesting facts, love to hear more.
There are a few real gems in this thread that deserve more attention. Some of them have been discussed before, in separate posts, and skipped over or pushed aside by the latest scandal (this week it's Shanelle/CW, next week, who knows).
We sometimes complain about the ADD generation but some are doing it right here in this thread by sidetracking the point. And don't forget middle-agers, the "old-timers" used to say we were disrespectful too. Times change, and I don't like the, "Whatever, I'm just sayin'" generation either but someday puberty will come to them.
We’ve had enough threads about what makes a good pool-hall and not a nightclub with pool tables before to see what we want and what works. The problem is it doesn’t apply to every town; there’s no standard model that fits everywhere. Sometimes we have to deal with what we have and by supporting the “right” places you, the regular player, can enforce change with your wallets.
We know what we want:
- Good equipment (this is a always #1 every time it is discussed)
- Good menu/full bar (Sundries, for owners, are where it’s at)
- Good staff (“no I won’t turn it down” doesn’t attract players, it attracts thugs)
- Good prices (table time will not make anyone a millionaire)
- Extras (cue repair/sales (even if from mail-order), magazines, etc)
If it doesn’t make sense, take the “pool” out of the “pool-hall”. Go find your local sports bar/tavern/pub/whatever, sit down, have a pint and just watch. See what nights are the busiest, if there are deals on, is there a lot of food sold, how do the staff dress, etc. Go to a nice restaurant and do the same. Look at the customers, are they well-to-do? What are the well-to-dos buying? Is the music deafening? Even in a small town, there’s a lot to see and learn from because well-to-do in Anytown, USA, is not the same as well-to-do in Anycity, USA. See what’s going on and you’ll know what will/won’t work right now.
Once you have an idea, now you can talk to the local owner (or your wife if you’re the owner) and have an intelligent conversation on what will work for your place. Instead of getting sidetracked by CW’s latest insult to pool, we can get an idea of where to go.
Now for the important parts:
Please, for the love pool, kick the asshats out. Refund 50% of their entry, or 100%, or whatever. Stop letting them keep pool down. The controversy alone will generate interest and at the same time bring the overall level of quality up. Since we like to compare to other sports … first offense – yellow Card and a loss of game. Second: red card and a free escort to the door.
If you don’t have a collar, could I recommend a fine rental golf-shirt? No? Red card.
And yes, I don’t play in league for the above reason.
Maybe someday, for now, clean it up first.
Loved your whole post, but I concentrate on this point. This is key. Not 8-ball on baby tables. 8-ball on 9’ with 4.25” (or smaller) pockets. This is what people know, relate to, understand, and pay attention to.
Yes, please. Just don’t make it USA-specific because it limits the scope right away. My two favorite things (in the latter, my only like) about the IPT and the ABP are the logos. Simple, easy-to-recognize. When I see the PGA logo, I know it’s golf. Start here, marketing 101; define your target market and make it recognizable to them. It seems small, but here’s a key element, and like the sport itself, you’re nothing without a solid foundation.
Did you come with ways that worked? I’m thinking the cost of space and electricity make it not possible for pool to survive on it’s own without the extras. I’d be interested in what ideas you owners came up with.
Two very interesting facts, love to hear more.
No it doesn't have to be USA-specific, but right now today we have IMHO to many little fish, each king of their own ponds trying to get their pot of gold for themselves out of pool player.
Good example is in Phoenix AZ, we have BCAPL, APA, ACS, TAP, and about three or four other league operators. Each trying to get players to their leagues.
My friend who own a Bar years ago in Phoenix said thing were better for the player, Bar Owner, and thee League Operator with JUST ONE LEAGUE in Town.
I have seen comments stating that the rooms depend on the leagues and therefore the leagues must be strengthened.
I think that is a symptom of the problem. Most of the potential customers are not and never will be in any league. They don't want the shirt. They don't want the pins. They don't want the fees. They want a pleasing evening out.
The potential customer need not be involved in leagues or any other such thing in order to be a reliable customer.
This is part of what I mean by such things being exclusionary. Most of the current people involved just cant accept the bangers at all. So much so that they will speak of them and to them with disdain, as if they have to wash after the interaction.
People who feel they know the situation because they talk to industry people at industry functions are victimizing themselves by taking the view of an industry that is failing. Look outside the box. Most of the potential paying customers are not and never will be part of the industry, the leagues, the tournaments, or any other such thing. Until that segment of the customer base is addressed and served things will remain the same.
Give people an enjoyable atmosphere and something enjoyable to do at a decent price in a convenient location and they will come.....and they will come back.
I think that is a symptom of the problem. Most of the potential customers are not and never will be in any league. They don't want the shirt. They don't want the pins. They don't want the fees. They want a pleasing evening out.
The potential customer need not be involved in leagues or any other such thing in order to be a reliable customer.
This is part of what I mean by such things being exclusionary. Most of the current people involved just cant accept the bangers at all. So much so that they will speak of them and to them with disdain, as if they have to wash after the interaction.
People who feel they know the situation because they talk to industry people at industry functions are victimizing themselves by taking the view of an industry that is failing. Look outside the box. Most of the potential paying customers are not and never will be part of the industry, the leagues, the tournaments, or any other such thing. Until that segment of the customer base is addressed and served things will remain the same.
Give people an enjoyable atmosphere and something enjoyable to do at a decent price in a convenient location and they will come.....and they will come back.
No ones saying that leagues keep pool halls afloat.They're part of what you need.(Bringing in people)Leagues bring in potential money.
Catering to what people enjoy young and old is a must nowadays.
Times are changing and you must go with the flow of things.
The pro's need a lot to make things go in the direction it should.
It starts with them and fans(and just not the pool playing type) and how do you get that?TV exposure.
Which takes sponsors.Would be nice to see another Miller Lite pool commercial again.
Perhaps someone has already mentioned this fact, but having most rooms with a booming bar attached and smoking is only going to keep out the young children (10-12 and up) who need to play and become tomorrow's pros.
Here's a note on a good university room with a request for your favorite rooms:
Where's My Super Pool School?
Here's a note on a good university room with a request for your favorite rooms:
Where's My Super Pool School?
I know this thread is how to save pool but I believe that the pool hall business is gasping it's last breath in this country. From pool hall owners that have no will to change, to the economy that has seen the decimation of the middle class, there seem to be too many obstacles for pool to survive and prosper here. Countries where pool is growing hold the answer to the OP's question and that is not America. Just a week or so ago a poster asked for a pool hall in the city of Boston and the answers were that there are none, a city that size with no pool hall!! I would look for answers in the Philippines, and other Asian countries for the reason it is succesful there..
Quote:
Originally Posted by cueandcushion
I have talked with pool room owners across the country for YEARS, at BCA conventions, at pool tournaments, and through the internet; consensus is that pool almost NEVER makes money. Alcohol, Food, Retail sales, Repair services...THOSE make money. If you really want POOL to be given a chance; then POOL needs to make MONEY.
Posted by: Ghosst
Did you come with ways that worked? I’m thinking the cost of space and electricity make it not possible for pool to survive on it’s own without the extras. I’d be interested in what ideas you owners came up with.
End Quote.
The ole saying goes, never have all your eggs in one basket. I think their Dad, Bob (has since passed, a truely good freind), had a lot to do with the deverisification of the business. The family at Cue & Cushion spent many years developing the business they have today. It is true that pool time is not paying the bills.
I have been a long time customer since 1968. It is true that the pool rates are $1.80 an hour these days, but I got to tell ya I am still greated with a freindly smile from the family members everytime I enter. Kinda like family.
They treat me and all of their customers with the greatest respect. This means a lot to me personally.
Times are tough right now, we will get through it. I have heard that we are probably looking at 2017 before things turn around.
A really good classy pocket billiard movie would help to move things along a little quicker.
Starring: (not in any specifc order)
Allen Hopkins
Nick Varner
Buddy Hall
Ronnie O' Sullivan
Steve Davis
And Grady Mathews as technical support.
Thanks for the work on my ring Craig, looks great, almost blinding. Now my wife wants some work done on her rings. Jeez.
John
Originally Posted by cueandcushion
I have talked with pool room owners across the country for YEARS, at BCA conventions, at pool tournaments, and through the internet; consensus is that pool almost NEVER makes money. Alcohol, Food, Retail sales, Repair services...THOSE make money. If you really want POOL to be given a chance; then POOL needs to make MONEY.
Posted by: Ghosst
Did you come with ways that worked? I’m thinking the cost of space and electricity make it not possible for pool to survive on it’s own without the extras. I’d be interested in what ideas you owners came up with.
End Quote.
The ole saying goes, never have all your eggs in one basket. I think their Dad, Bob (has since passed, a truely good freind), had a lot to do with the deverisification of the business. The family at Cue & Cushion spent many years developing the business they have today. It is true that pool time is not paying the bills.
I have been a long time customer since 1968. It is true that the pool rates are $1.80 an hour these days, but I got to tell ya I am still greated with a freindly smile from the family members everytime I enter. Kinda like family.
They treat me and all of their customers with the greatest respect. This means a lot to me personally.
Times are tough right now, we will get through it. I have heard that we are probably looking at 2017 before things turn around.
A really good classy pocket billiard movie would help to move things along a little quicker.
Starring: (not in any specifc order)
Allen Hopkins
Nick Varner
Buddy Hall
Ronnie O' Sullivan
Steve Davis
And Grady Mathews as technical support.
Thanks for the work on my ring Craig, looks great, almost blinding. Now my wife wants some work done on her rings. Jeez.
John
Last edited:
To Ghosst:
Yes, my dad did come up with ways that worked. He reminisced how on his first day of ownership he made about $17 in pool time, maybe exaggerating, but who knows . He told me the first month he owned the billiard parlor in 1966 he knew how to have a successful business; by getting out of the pool room business. By diversification into other areas. He started out by having a flea market sale every Sunday. We would put sheets over the pool tables and sell appliances or costume jewelry my dad bought at closeout sales or bankruptcy sales. We made more money in 3 hours on Sunday than in operating a billiard parlor 105 hours a week. That was our start. If not for going into retail to support our room, it would have folded many years ago.
Yes, my dad did come up with ways that worked. He reminisced how on his first day of ownership he made about $17 in pool time, maybe exaggerating, but who knows . He told me the first month he owned the billiard parlor in 1966 he knew how to have a successful business; by getting out of the pool room business. By diversification into other areas. He started out by having a flea market sale every Sunday. We would put sheets over the pool tables and sell appliances or costume jewelry my dad bought at closeout sales or bankruptcy sales. We made more money in 3 hours on Sunday than in operating a billiard parlor 105 hours a week. That was our start. If not for going into retail to support our room, it would have folded many years ago.
Renfro,
You never answered my question in my earlier post.
Is the Mouses Ear still open?
I'm a life time member and I was only there one evening and morning of my life.
Need to start in the homes.............
Thousands of people have tables in their homes now. Dad plays and usually nobody else in the family plays too much at all. We need to teach the rest of the family to play by showing them how to improve very fast.
Many players that try to shoot don't like it because they don't have a clue how to line up to see the shot correctly. This stops alot of players dead in their tracks from continuing. We lose alot of new players because of this very issue.
Most of the issues with a person just starting out is the eye alignment to see the shot correctly. For many players starting out just telling them to line up naturally just doesn't get it. Even a seasoned player has trouble with this after a month or 2 without playing. They call it out of stroke but most of it is getting those eyes back in the most correct position naturally. But you can get back in stroke almost immediately if you know how the eye position needs to be.
But by a players knowing where the eyes need to be they can greatly reduce this time considerably. By knowing exactly how to line up they are practicing seeing the shot correctly all of the time. And this goes for seasoned players also. Knowing is so huge.
If players play better they want to play more. It's tough to stick with something if you suck at it.
I'm trying to do my part by teaching as many as I can how to play so much better in a short period of time. It's fun for me to share something like this and it's fun for the players to discover something that they didn't even know existed that would help them so much.
We need to get the whole family playing all over. Get using those tables down in those basements. I think that is the key to the whole business of building pool.
Doing my part for the game we all love one player at a time.
Have a great day geno............
Thousands of people have tables in their homes now. Dad plays and usually nobody else in the family plays too much at all. We need to teach the rest of the family to play by showing them how to improve very fast.
Many players that try to shoot don't like it because they don't have a clue how to line up to see the shot correctly. This stops alot of players dead in their tracks from continuing. We lose alot of new players because of this very issue.
Most of the issues with a person just starting out is the eye alignment to see the shot correctly. For many players starting out just telling them to line up naturally just doesn't get it. Even a seasoned player has trouble with this after a month or 2 without playing. They call it out of stroke but most of it is getting those eyes back in the most correct position naturally. But you can get back in stroke almost immediately if you know how the eye position needs to be.
But by a players knowing where the eyes need to be they can greatly reduce this time considerably. By knowing exactly how to line up they are practicing seeing the shot correctly all of the time. And this goes for seasoned players also. Knowing is so huge.
If players play better they want to play more. It's tough to stick with something if you suck at it.
I'm trying to do my part by teaching as many as I can how to play so much better in a short period of time. It's fun for me to share something like this and it's fun for the players to discover something that they didn't even know existed that would help them so much.
We need to get the whole family playing all over. Get using those tables down in those basements. I think that is the key to the whole business of building pool.
Doing my part for the game we all love one player at a time.
Have a great day geno............
exactly. why would I go to a pool hall when I can invite some freinds over and play at home. You can't play golf at home, you can't bowl at home. But I never have to step foot into a hall if I don't want to.
Make it so people have to go to a pool hall if they want to play pool. Just not that many people want to play pool anymore with all the other choices.
Chopdoc said:
"This is part of what I mean by such things being exclusionary. Most of the current people involved just cant accept the bangers at all. So much so that they will speak of them and to them with disdain, as if they have to wash after the interaction."
I am a banger and will never be any more than a banger because I am never going to put the time into the game to be decent. It can be intimidating to go into a pool hall when you know you are not good. It would be nice for the good players to accept and even just talk to the bangers. I did have this happen at Classic Billiards in Portland, OR last summer. My wife and I went in to play on their 12' snooker table. A regular customer came over and talked with us and even showed us a catalog of pool items. It was a very nice day. He made us feel welcome and when we go back to visit our boys, we will go there again.
"This is part of what I mean by such things being exclusionary. Most of the current people involved just cant accept the bangers at all. So much so that they will speak of them and to them with disdain, as if they have to wash after the interaction."
I am a banger and will never be any more than a banger because I am never going to put the time into the game to be decent. It can be intimidating to go into a pool hall when you know you are not good. It would be nice for the good players to accept and even just talk to the bangers. I did have this happen at Classic Billiards in Portland, OR last summer. My wife and I went in to play on their 12' snooker table. A regular customer came over and talked with us and even showed us a catalog of pool items. It was a very nice day. He made us feel welcome and when we go back to visit our boys, we will go there again.