How much time is saved?

D

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
"I think knowledge is more important than HAMB. They may go hand in hand but knowledge acquisition will shorten the learning curve, SIGNIFICANTLY."

Who wrote this is not important. There have been other statements about aiming systems, equipment, instruction that imply the same line of thinking as this statement.

I am just using this statement as an example of a line of thinking that is very misleading and will hindered your development as a pool player.

First how much time is saved? Hours, days, weeks, months, years, decades? Saving time/lowering the learning curve implies being able to measure something, make changes and see the results. Saving time, lowering the learning curve, is a measured value

If you have a website, you can monitor the performance of the site and make adjustments to increase the performance to save users page loading time. You have a benchmark to start from, a way to measure the changes to see what works and what doesn't.

If you have a race car, you can time yours laps, make changes to see if you can go faster or not

So, how was this "time saving" line of thinking measured in being able play the highest level of pool you can?

How can you prove that doing or using xxx is gonna save anyone time in achieving the highest level of pool playing they can? What methods were used to show that time is being saved using or doing xxx?

Its all speculation in order to give some form of validity to something. There is no way to measure knowing that physics of spin will shorten anyone's time in becoming the best of the best or at least the best they can be.

There is no way to measure how much time is saved taking any form of instruction in playing the best you can and I do not mean becoming a APA 5 from a APA 3 either, nor winning the local handicap, short race tourney either.

Do not fall for this line of thinking that there are time savers in pool. There are none. Just plain ole hard work, dedication and heart.
 
Practice,practice,an more practice...yes I think one has to hit hamb.

I also think you have to know what your doing..

A good example of time saved..Landon vs Earl.
 
duckie said:
"I think knowledge is more important than HAMB. They may go hand in hand but knowledge acquisition will shorten the learning curve, SIGNIFICANTLY."
Click to expand...

I think you miss one thing about the quote above. It does not say knowledge will eliminate the need to hit thousands of balls. It says it will shorten the learning curve significantly. So...what would be considered significant? HFHTB (hit 500,000 balls)?

When you HAMB you learn as you go. So the first 100,000 or so is spent learning something basic about pool. The next 100,000 you learn something a little more advanced...etc, etc. So if someone comes along and says here is my DVD. It includes everything you could learn by hitting 300,000 balls then that would be a significant decrease in the journey to 1,000,000. Right?

I understand my analogy is kinda silly but it is true. We HAMB so we can learn how to do what we do better. If you apply professional guidance along the way, the journey is most definitely shortened. But we will never negate the need to develop a feel for the game which comes from practicing.

Lastly, remember that pool instruction is in it's infancy. It improves everyday!

scratchs said:
Practice,practice,an more practice...yes I think one has to hit hamb.

I also think you have to know what your doing..

A good example of time saved..Landon vs Earl.
Click to expand...

EXCELLENT POINT! It is that match which motivated me to buy the CTE/Pro1 dvd. So far no Holy Grails but I have enjoyed it!

Ken
 
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I spent over 20 years playing and learning mostly on my own to become, at my best, a low A player.

Because the first 10 years I had no clue that I was not playing correctly to get any good, the place I played had very few good players, and none that could show anyone anything.

If I spent a few weeks with a good teacher 20 years ago, I'd be at my current level 10 years ago, and probably would be able to go past a low A now.

I can't for the life of me hit consistently with left spin because my stroke moves the stick across to the right. If when I started playing someone said "hey, you are lining up off center and adjusting" that would probably be gone. But after 20 years of doing this the wrong way, I can't get myself to stop. Sure, 50% of the time in practice I can force things to line up and hit properly, but in a game, I end up missing the ball or not getting the spin I want way too often.

I know for me, I'd have saved 20 years of mediocre play.
 
Theres no guarantee that either save "time".

Everyone is different and very different things get thru to different people.

Some of the best in the world not only do things they don't understand precisely the science behind but some are even wrong about what they do think they do.

On the other hand, has there been many/any "Professional" intructors/teachers/coaches that were world champions in thier discipline? Very few if any.

Regardless of knowledge, most will never make it to the top 1% of thier sport minimum.

Bottom line is there is no one answer , there are only results of the effort and you have to deciede for yourself where that effort is best placed.
 
duckie said:
"I think knowledge is more important than HAMB. They may go hand in hand but knowledge acquisition will shorten the learning curve, SIGNIFICANTLY."

Who wrote this is not important. There have been other statements about aiming systems, equipment, instruction that imply the same line of thinking as this statement.

I am just using this statement as an example of a line of thinking that is very misleading and will hindered your development as a pool player.

First how much time is saved? Hours, days, weeks, months, years, decades? Saving time/lowering the learning curve implies being able to measure something, make changes and see the results. Saving time, lowering the learning curve, is a measured value

If you have a website, you can monitor the performance of the site and make adjustments to increase the performance to save users page loading time. You have a benchmark to start from, a way to measure the changes to see what works and what doesn't.

If you have a race car, you can time yours laps, make changes to see if you can go faster or not

So, how was this "time saving" line of thinking measured in being able play the highest level of pool you can?

How can you prove that doing or using xxx is gonna save anyone time in achieving the highest level of pool playing they can? What methods were used to show that time is being saved using or doing xxx?

Its all speculation in order to give some form of validity to something. There is no way to measure knowing that physics of spin will shorten anyone's time in becoming the best of the best or at least the best they can be.

There is no way to measure how much time is saved taking any form of instruction in playing the best you can and I do not mean becoming a APA 5 from a APA 3 either, nor winning the local handicap, short race tourney either.

Do not fall for this line of thinking that there are time savers in pool. There are none. Just plain ole hard work, dedication and heart.
Click to expand...

Which end of the cue do you strike the cue ball with? At some point you had to figure out that hitting with the end that has a tip on it is better than hitting the ball with the bumper. This may be a very simple example but if you didn't know any better you could waste hours, days, or even weeks shooting pool before you figured that out.

I have 3 young children (7, 6, and 2). I have been teaching them all how to play. People do not come out of the womb with an intrinsic ability to shoot pool. Children are blank slates that don't know anything about pool. If I gave no instruction to 1 child and gave a lot of instruction to another child, who do you think would be better off?

There are definitely shortcuts in this game and anybody that thinks otherwise is hopeless.
 
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Mr Obvious strikes again:

duckie said:
"So, how was this "time saving" line of thinking measured in being able play the highest level of pool you can?

How can you prove that doing or using xxx is gonna save anyone time in achieving the highest level of pool playing they can? What methods were used to show that time is being saved using or doing xxx?
Click to expand...


Miss neither the OB nor the subsequent position, and you will spend a lot less time sitting down waiting for your opponent to miss. This is the time you will save by working all thos difficult practice hours.
 
Well, let's put it another way. Failure to understand certain things may lead to a player making the same mistake over and over and having no idea why it's not working.

In that case, the amount of time they lose for their failure to learn is basically unlimited. They can keep hitting that shot wrong their whole lives and just assuming that it was either impossible, or beyond a normal player's ability.

Just because nobody has the magical power to provide you with an exact number of hours saved... doesn't mean hours are not saved. They are.

I can't tell you how many hours it will take you to guess what number I'm thinking of. But I do know you'll guess it faster if I tell you "it's between 1 and 100 and it's an even number". That's what knowledge does for you: helps you choose the right option out of dozens or hundreds of possibilities. If my pool knowledge tells me X is impossible, but Y is not, I won't waste any extra time thinking about (or trying to shoot) X.
 
Knowing something and being able to do it are two entirely different things.

Knowing the proper technique doesn't mean one has the motor skills to do the technique. It does allow one to be able to accurately measure progress, and assess ones ability.

Knowing where you are trying to get can shorten the journey if you are capable of getting there in the first place...

All the hard work in the world isn't going to make just anyone Willie Mosconi.

:cool:
 
My take on this comes from my archery training back in the 80s. I was not a pro but I was lucky enough to become friends with a US olympic team coach. He had two main things he drilled into my head.

1. Propper form, you need to know what it is or you will be practicing bad habbits. I would say, but this one has been shooting for X number of years. He would say " he has been practicing bad form for all that time that's why he is stuck where he is.

2. Don't practice when you are at a shoot, you drilled it iinto you head, now go with your instincts. In other words if you did not bring it to the shoot, you're not going to find it at the shoot.

A lot of people fall into the trap of, "There is no right or wrong, I'll just do it in a way that fits me" What fits you will often limit your progress someday.

I'm now 62 and starting playing pool. I have been using this thinking in my practice. The guys I'm playing are not happy about it, I'm catching up too fast :grin: At 62 I will never get good, but good enough to frustate the hell out of my buddies.

**As a side note, I picked up Dr. Daves DVDs. He has printable test sheets on his website. They are for the drills, you can guage your progress from your. score.**
 
Hitting a million balls does not mean you will be a great (nor real good) pool player. I've hit a million balls in my lifetime and I still suck (a "C" player on a good day :o).

Formal personal instruction, watching instructional DVD's, reading instructional books/magazines, watching countless hours of live streams/YouTube video, etc. will not guarantee that you will ever be anything but an average player. I am living proof of that.

But.....I will say that if I would of had the resources for learning back when I was a younger man that are available to me now, I could have reached my degree of mediocrity at a much faster pace. Maybe cut the million balls down to half-a-million. A darn fine instructor once taught me that "practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect". Doing something over and over again the wrong way not only ingrains it into your system to where it's hard to remove, but it also slows down your learning it the right way.

If I would have had people showing me the right way to do things when I was a beginner, I would have gotten better MUCH faster. I have always had an ability to learn things which are shown to me, and I will learn them well if what I am being shown holds my interest (as in pool, NOT American History or Algebra :wink:).

So, I believe the statement quoted from JoeyA at the beginng of the OP's first post is absolutely true.

Maniac
 
How many of you know people that prob hit 2000000000000 balls but still play like crap?

Conversely, the same can be said for the opposite end--- those who take countless lessons and still play like crap.

If you take the extremes out of the equation and focus on the middle, you have to hit balls and you have to know what you're doing.

Duckies diatribes on how the only way to play well is to HAMB is tiresome.

I have a friend who was a GREAT GREAT player after less than 3 years of playing (ran a 9-pack of 9 ball). No lessons, no HAMB.

Duck's matter-of-fact posts on this topic really say, "I hate instructors" and "I hate systems in general." Yet, based on his Youtube videos he plays like he needs both.
 
You can't talk about time saved without establishing from and to. Everybody has different starting points with regard to natural ability, and the end goal, whether it is to reach "B" level or champion level, makes a huge difference as well.

IMO, nobody will ever reach A+ to champion level without HAMB. There is simply too much knowledge that you can only get from what I call "Simonis osmosis", and no book/system/video/instruction is going to give you that.

That being said, people often spend 5-10 years progressing from a novice to a B player - many never get there, even after HAMB. It's possible that they were just unlucky enough to not be built (either above or below the neck) for the game they love, but I think more often than not those players could have advanced far more rapidly with some combination of instruction and systems. If it were possible to do an accurate study (perhaps with twins?), I wouldn't be surprised if progress could be expedited to the tune of 50% or more with proper instruction.

Beyond the A range, however, I think it starts to be more about the individual - their innate ability, mental approach to the game, work ethic, desire, heart - than it is about knowledge. The player that progresses from A+ to champion is finding most of that extra mileage within himself, IMO.

Aaron
 
The two are not mutually exclusive. Anybody dedicated enough to hit a million balls is going to pick up some knowledge along the way.
 
strmanglr scott said:
There are bits of knowledge that will only be helpful and shorten the learning curve when the player can understand and execute that knowledge.
Click to expand...

Of course. Execution is ALWAYS the key whether the argument is for HAMB or knowledge.

My biggest drawback in pool is that I have more knowledge than ability (and yes, I HAVE hit a million balls too :sorry:).

Maniac
 
I would bet 95% of the top players over the years in the US learned in one of these ways.

Had a table at home with a family member to teach him that was shortstop or better.

Family had poolroom and he started playing and being taught by the best in the joint at a very young age.

Went to the poolroom everyday at a young age and kept advancing because he kept playing players better than him.

In all three of these as he got shortstop or better he hung out, went on the road, and gambled a lot. Johnnyt
 
duckie said:
"I think knowledge is more important than HAMB. They may go hand in hand but knowledge acquisition will shorten the learning curve, SIGNIFICANTLY."

Who wrote this is not important. There have been other statements about aiming systems, equipment, instruction that imply the same line of thinking as this statement.

I am just using this statement as an example of a line of thinking that is very misleading and will hindered your development as a pool player.

First how much time is saved? Hours, days, weeks, months, years, decades? Saving time/lowering the learning curve implies being able to measure something, make changes and see the results. Saving time, lowering the learning curve, is a measured value

If you have a website, you can monitor the performance of the site and make adjustments to increase the performance to save users page loading time. You have a benchmark to start from, a way to measure the changes to see what works and what doesn't.

If you have a race car, you can time yours laps, make changes to see if you can go faster or not

So, how was this "time saving" line of thinking measured in being able play the highest level of pool you can?

How can you prove that doing or using xxx is gonna save anyone time in achieving the highest level of pool playing they can? What methods were used to show that time is being saved using or doing xxx?

Its all speculation in order to give some form of validity to something. There is no way to measure knowing that physics of spin will shorten anyone's time in becoming the best of the best or at least the best they can be.

There is no way to measure how much time is saved taking any form of instruction in playing the best you can and I do not mean becoming a APA 5 from a APA 3 either, nor winning the local handicap, short race tourney either.

Do not fall for this line of thinking that there are time savers in pool. There are none. Just plain ole hard work, dedication and heart.
Click to expand...

When you raced bikes, did people make the courses from trial and error, or did they have some kind of education behind it?

There's a reason we don't have to manufacture our own computers, have prepackaged foods(with warning labels) and so on.. knowledge is half the battle or something.

I've taught friends how to hit banks certain ways and so on.. how long do you think it would take people, that don't have the inclination, to figure some of that stuff out?

There ARE time-savers, but you must still put in the time to be proficient with that knowledge, as well as have the physical ability to consistently repeat it.

"If you have a race car, you can time yours laps, make changes to see if you can go faster or not" Yeah, but an engineer with a wind tunnel/etc can do it a lot faster.

If knowledge is useless, why are you on AZB?
 
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