IPT - I am almost ready to give them another chance

[Fast Lenny]

How many people on here have been burned personally by KT besides Jay?

 

[jimmyg]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyg

Some people are amoral opportunists, they take as much as they can from whomever they can and contribute only enough to achieve that end They are toxic to all they touch and usually pick the most needy and helpless victims that they can find.

While everyone is entitled to pick their own heros, personally, I don't think that these types are good for pool, or anything else that they are associated with.

Al Capone fed the poor on Thanksgiving, John Gotti paid for some great fireworks displays in Howard Beach on July 4th. And Jeffrey Dahmler was a very good son. So what?

If you are really interested in KT's past and present Google him.

Jim

STEVENPWALDON: He's done some swindling in the past, but the failure of the IPT is not his fault; or at least he wasn't responsible for it's sudden and catastrophic failure. The IPT failed so fast because of gambling legislation that prohibited online gambling in America. This was the business model Trudeau was hoping to make money off of. Not IPT memberships, nor endoresements or TV deals (except maybe in the long run). It was online gambling.

If you take into consideration how much the IPT cost to run, air on TV, and pay out what is has, there's no way KT made any money off it. He didn't take the $2000 and stick it in his pocket like some make it out. The IPT has no money not because KT stole it all, but because the business model it was based on wasn't able to get off the ground. Quote: StevenPWaldon


JIMMYG: Actually Steve, I wasn't addressing the reason for the IPT's failure at all.

I was simply stating that given KT's history of being convicted of felony fraud, plus his business and personal reputation for being a con man that preys on the most desperate of victims, the sick and elderly, makes him an extremely poor choice to lead pool anywhere, especially towards mainstream respectability.

But you brought up a interesting point about his business plan being to profit solely from on-line gambling. Well, I just can't figure how any sport profits from gambling except those like race tracks that are set up with paramutual betting, whereas they deduct a portion of all monies wagered directly for themselves.

How, exactly, would the IPT have profited from on-line gambling? I don't think that the legal books in Vegas, or elsewhere, pay professional sports teams to allow betting on baseball games, nor the NFL, nor any other profesional sport. In fact, I think that it would be totally illegal. So how, exactly, was KT going to make money being involved with on-line, or any other type of gambling? Was he planning on booking the bets himself? That would have been a MAJOR conflict of interest since he would also have controlled the sport being bet on, and probably would have done more harm to the credibility of pool than anything else, ever. Or, perhaps he was planning on fixing the games and profitting that way? And certainly pool is not large enough financially to create it's own paramutual betting system.

So, unless someone that knows more about this than I, can explain it to me, I just can't see it, and think that it is just more KT BS.

Jim

 

[jay helfert]

I have the same problem and I understand this point of your's ....... up to a point.

If this really is so, it makes me wonder why we are all so hyped up at the autumn as there's US Open coming. Isn't BB also convicted man and isn't he still owing money to some players? I think he is. At last years Open, he promised xx-amount of prize money to be paid. He paid to the first and to the second what he promised, but almost from everyone else he snapped about 20% off (this is estimate, not a fact, but might be more), and NOBODY SAID A SINGLE WORD. I remember after the tournament as somebody asked about the prize money, the info which was given in here, matched the promise, but not the real payments.
I know there has been condition, that if the field is full the prize money would be like that, but the field was almost full and the payments were listed on the wall for many days. Only at the final days it was changed.
Why I'm telling this, is just to show you, that if we can forgive, we all have much more fun. BB hasn't killed anybody (at least that I know) and he hasn't robbed any player with gun or anything like that. He has organized the Opens now for about 32 yrs and if we would wait him to be saint, what would we have in return? No Opens?
KT is maybe bigger con man than BB, but I doubt he has killed anyone either. About as much as his vices are bigger, his tournaments are also.

Jay, I think your example about Devil is little bit over exaggerated here. I wouldn't dance with Devil no matter what he'd promise, but at this point - and trust me I also have conscience - I definitely would attend an IPT tournament. We don't have much choice, and if you look around, poolworld is full of hustlers etc. Kevin is little bit bigger one (ok, maybe quite much bigger one), but so is his effort also. And we don't have to eat from his hands or anything - we just should put it to right kind of perspective, as related to his 'sins', his effort, and the situation of the poolworld overall (the prizes in poolworld, the credibilty of the poolworld, etc...

To each his own. I was at last years U.S. Open, and as far as I know all monies promised were paid in full. The prize money breakdown was posted on day three as well. Maybe you know something I don't.

 

[jay helfert]

This is quite much what I meant, I just don't know so many examples. I also feel, that Jay has something 'special' against KT, but from the poolworld around you Jay, you could easily find guys worse than KT is..
Jay, we need you. Roy is forgiving now, can you at least consider it also.... please...

I don't have anything "special" against KT. I just don't like what he did and how he did it. He hurt a lot of players emotionally as well as financially. Of course, that is his M.O. isn't it. All I ever asked of him was to keep your promises. It's that simple. If he had paid off the last tournament in a timely manner, you would never have heard a peep out of me. But he didn't, and regardless of what people are saying, he still hasn't paid everyone in full.

Just because there is graft and corruption in other segments of our society (i.e. drug companies, health care, government etc.) doesn't give him license to operate in the same way. A liar is a liar and a con man is a con man wherever you find him. That's why some of these corporate bigwigs/thieves have ended up in prison lately.

I for one, hope there is a cell with his name on it. Our society would be better off without him plundering people with his worthless claims. I haven't forgotten the hundreds of pool players who paid $2,000 to play in qualifiers to nowhere. ALL that money should have been refunded the moment he pulled up stakes. That would have been the honorable thing to do. Especially for a man who claims to be a "billionaire".

You can agree or disagree with me. That is your option. But if you are asking me to change my mind about him, nothing doing.

 

[Snapshot9]

Kt

well, we all should know that, if we Americans, are good at anything, it is 'exploitation'. You see it in all walks of life in our country.

By the way, my insomnia allowed me to see KT with a woman at 4 in the morning on TV 2 nights ago, selling a face cream that makes all your wrinkles disappear ....

 

[smashmouth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyg




But you brought up a interesting point about his business plan being to profit solely from on-line gambling. Well, I just can't figure how any sport profits from gambling except those like race tracks that are set up with paramutual betting, whereas they deduct a portion of all monies wagered directly for themselves.

How, exactly, would the IPT have profited from on-line gambling? I don't think that the legal books in Vegas, or elsewhere, pay professional sports teams to allow betting on baseball games, nor the NFL, nor any other profesional sport. In fact, I think that it would be totally illegal. So how, exactly, was KT going to make money being involved with on-line, or any other type of gambling? Was he planning on booking the bets himself? That would have been a MAJOR conflict of interest since he would also have controlled the sport being bet on, and probably would have done more harm to the credibility of pool than anything else, ever. Or, perhaps he was planning on fixing the games and profitting that way? And certainly pool is not large enough financially to create it's own paramutual betting system.

So, unless someone that knows more about this than I, can explain it to me, I just can't see it, and think that it is just more KT BS.

Jim

1. The gambling aspect was based on the HUGELY succesfull BWIN model

2. If you have to ask how a sports league profits from gambling............

 

[smashmouth]

in reality all these posts are really moot since the players have spoken and continue to support the man that paid out MILLIONS of dollars

Busta, Duel, Archer, Earl, have pretty much publicly endorsed KT and you can bet if the IPT starts tourneys again that 95% of all top pros will enter

 

[Ed Simmons]

How many people on here have been burned personally by KT besides Jay?

Are you implying that we have to be burned to have an opinion?

I was never personally burned by Adolph Hitler, but I can assure you I am not alone in my strong dislike for his actions, and I wouldn't want to do business with him.

Freddy shoved some free food in his mouth Wednesday and is now an IPT whore. He can name-drop all he wants in the support of them, but that won't change the fact that Trudeau is still a liar, thief, and won't hesitate to screw over the next round of suckers.

Next time you're there, Freddy, try the Kool-Aid.

 

[TX Poolnut]

Steve, you are the first guy to figure out the real deal and share it with the forum. It was all about the Chinese Billionaire buying the IPT and having internet pari-mutuel betting on pool matches, with KT keeping a smaller piece of the action. When they snuck that bill through banning internet gambling nationally, it queered the deal. Now since they are still playing poker in the US on Poker Stars and other sites, the interest is being rekindled. The story that he planned on screwing everybody from the beginning would only make sense to a moron. That anybody would invest a couple million in front to try to take off the pool world is the real oxymoron.

the Beard

Sorry Freddy, but you're wrong. The Congress didn't sneak anything through. Here are the facts.

November 18, 2005: H.R. 4411 (Internet Gambling Prohibition and Enforcement Act) introduced.

Nov 30- Dec 4, 2005: IPT King of the Hill takes place. Players paid.

February 16, 2006: H. R. 4777 (Internet Gambling Prohibition Act) introduced.

July 1, 2006: H. R. 4411 passed House, amended.

July 10, 2006: H. R. 4777 is reported to the House, amended.
H. Res. 907: Providing for consideration of the bill (H.R. 4411) to prevent the use of certain payment instruments, credit cards, and fund transfers for unlawful Internet gambling.

July 11, 2006: Republican leaders decided to fold H.R. 4777 into H. R. 4411 for floor action on July 13, 2006.

July 13, 2006: After H. R. 4777 (Internet Gambling Prohibition Act) is folded into H. R. 4411 (Internet Gambling Prohibition and Enforcement Act), the amended H. R. 4411 is read the second and third time on the floor and placed on Senate Legislative Calendar for vote. The bill is now officially approved by the House of Representatives and must be voted on by the Senate.

July 22-30: IPT NA Open takes place. Players are paid.

September 2-10: IPT World Open takes place. Players are not paid.
The bill has not become law yet. How can Trudeau say a bill that hasn't even been sent to the President is the reason the players didn't get paid? If it came out of nowhere, he still wouldn't have known about it at this point.

September 14, 2006: This bill passed in the Senate by roll call vote. The totals were: 98 Ayes, 0 Nays, 2 Present/Not Voting.

September 22, 2006: Congress has approved the Act and it is placed on the Union Calendar for Executive Branch consideration.

October 13, 2006: President Bush signs the law making it Public Law 109-347. The Act is title VIII of a completely unrelated bill, the Safe Port Act, HR 4954, dealing with port security. He makes no mention of title VIII as he signs the new law.

The law doesn't make online gaming illegal in the US anymore than it already was. The reason Party Poker and other stocks tanked was because of speculation, not because of this law.

 

[jimmyg]

1. The gambling aspect was based on the HUGELY succesfull BWIN model

2. If you have to ask how a sports league profits from gambling............

Really? How exactly did the on-line gambling laws negatively effect any cash flow to, or financially prevent the IPT from continuing their business model? Did KT expect paybacks from BWIN in order to make the IPT profitable? Do you actually think that legitimate sports entities receive kickback monies from legitimate on-line gambling companies? Or do you think that KT expected to establish his own company to compete with BWIN? Do you even understand what BWIN does, or where their revenue stream comes from, or goes to?

Please tell me how baseball, football, hockey, tennis, basketball, soccer, even darts profit from on-line gambling.

Here's a link that may explain more about BWIN:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bwin

I don't think that you thought about the question that I asked, or the answer you gave, because you didn't even come close to addressing it.

I believe that KT simply miscalculated revenue from qualifiers, sponsorships, advertising, and programming revenues. Just like millions of other badly planned and executed business plans, it was a failure. Everything else, from "forgot the checkbooks", to "waiting for HO" was just KT's way of refusing to admit defeat. I believe it's just as simple as that.

If anyone has a rational explaination, I'd really like to hear it...because I can't find the financial relationship.

Jim

 

[Nick B]

I guess we all have a different morality. The man was a proven liar and con man and ran true to form in what transpired with the first incarnation of the IPT. Why anybody would get back into bed with him is beyond me, but we all must make our own choices, and live with them. If I never heard his name again, it wouldn't bother me one iota.

I hesitate to say this, but I guess some people would take up with the devil, if they saw a chance to enrich themselves. Just doesn't work for me though. I have a problem. It's called conscience.

I'n the words of Jack Nicholson...."That's as good as it gets". Perfect.

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

To each his own. I was at last years U.S. Open, and as far as I know all monies promised were paid in full. The prize money breakdown was posted on day three as well. Maybe you know something I don't.

Unfortunately Marvel is correct. First place was paid in full and I believe it was said that 2nd place was paid in full but the prize fund for most of the others was cut without warning. I won't put him on the spot because I know he's a very laid back, non-confrontational young man but contact L.U. privately and I bet he would be able to confirm his payout was cut short.

As for the others that are cutting Kevin a break & defending what transpired. I searched high and low for a copy of the players meeting in Orlando but all internet copies that I came across are no longer available. I was able to find the following from J. D. Dolan who interviewed Kevin and had the story published in Details magazine.

from an interview I had with Peter Kjaer, husband of Angela Ho and son-in-law of Stanley Ho. Trudeau and Kjaer (and Angela Ho) were indeed in negotiations, although it's a stretch to say that these negotiations were exactly as Trudeau described them.

Trudeau never mentioned that the IPT's success was contingent upon this funding; in fact, he implied that he was so rich that the whole thing would be a big party even if it failed.

Trudeau was in negotiations with Ho Gaming Solutions, but he presented this, as he seems to present nearly everything, with a distinctly twisted point of view. Remember his statement about the IPT's King of the Hill show being #1 on the Versus network? Not true, according to the network. Remember his statement that the IPT was represented by the William Morris Agency? Not true, according to the agency.

J.D.

Take the above quote and couple it with the fact that Kevin looked every player in the eye and told them that regardless of what happens with sponsorship and income, he was personally funding the tour out of his pocket for the first two years and that the money was escrowed with a national accounting firm.

He knew that his business model (or lack thereof) would be questioned by anyone with half a brain so he said the tour would definitely go for two years on his money regardless of whether to tour made money or not.

Had it simply been the tour wasn't making enough to support itself, or his business deal was canceled, I would understand and certainly be sympathetic. This however, was not the case. The case (for me) is that he promised the tour was funded in escrow for two years and it wasn't. People quit their jobs and spent more money than they had to attend these tournaments because they *knew* that they had their "guaranteed IPT job with guaranteed money for at least the next two years".

As stated, I couldn't find a copy of the speech itself but here's quotes from those that did read it.

the IPT will be flush with money for at least 2 years at which time it will be judged on how well it does

Trudeau has committed money for two years of this tour

True enough businesses do fail and often the founder skates without a blemish. In this case, the founder, KT, gave his personal garuntee. He was funding the tour. That was one of his 1st statements

Where they were mislead is about the solvency of the tour. The foundation of the IPT was it's guarantee, Trudeau's personal guarantee that the IPT was fully funded for at least two years.

Because of this promise and no third-party verification the players did follow Trudeau. Because he was the best game in town. Had he truly funded the tour for two years then the landscape would look totally different right now.

 

[jay helfert]

Unfortunately Marvel is correct. First place was paid in full and I believe it was said that 2nd place was paid in full but the prize fund for most of the others was cut without warning. I won't put him on the spot because I know he's a very laid back, non-confrontational young man but contact L.U. privately and I bet he would be able to confirm his payout was cut short.

As for the others that are cutting Kevin a break & defending what transpired. I searched high and low for a copy of the players meeting in Orlando but all internet copies that I came across are no longer available. I was able to find the following from J. D. Dolan who interviewed Kevin and had the story published in Details magazine.



Take the above quote and couple it with the fact that Kevin looked every player in the eye and told them that regardless of what happens with sponsorship and income, he was personally funding the tour out of his pocket for the first two years and that the money was escrowed with a national accounting firm.

He knew that his business model (or lack thereof) would be questioned by anyone with half a brain so he said the tour would definitely go for two years on his money regardless of whether to tour made money or not.

Had it simply been the tour wasn't making enough to support itself, or his business deal was canceled, I would understand and certainly be sympathetic. This however, was not the case. The case (for me) is that he promised the tour was funded in escrow for two years and it wasn't. People quit their jobs and spent more money than they had to attend these tournaments because they *knew* that they had their "guaranteed IPT job with guaranteed money for at least the next two years".

As stated, I couldn't find a copy of the speech itself but here's quotes from those that did read it.

His personal guarantee. HA! The man is amoral.

The best con men can look you in the eye and flat lie. And we've seen one of the best.

 

[gopi-1]

Ahhh KT! The man who busted the lie detector test!

All I can say is...


POST UP!

Money talks and bullsh*t walks!

 

[freddy the beard]

Expand your vocabulary - you keep repeating yourself

....Freddy shoved some free food in his mouth Wednesday and is now an IPT whore. He can name-drop all he wants in the support of them, but that won't change the fact that Trudeau is still a liar, thief, and won't hesitate to screw over the next round of suckers.

Next time you're there, Freddy, try the Kool-Aid.

That's the second time you called me a whore -- and your credentials and justification for such a personal unwarranted attack are..?
The first was in the thread, "My night out at the IPT event."

the Beard

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[Druid]

I guess we all have a different morality. The man was a proven liar and con man and ran true to form in what transpired with the first incarnation of the IPT. Why anybody would get back into bed with him is beyond me, but we all must make our own choices, and live with them. If I never heard his name again, it wouldn't bother me one iota.

I hesitate to say this, but I guess some people would take up with the devil, if they saw a chance to enrich themselves. Just doesn't work for me though. I have a problem. It's called conscience.

I totally agree with you Jay, except that I would add that it makes not only moral sense, but business sense to not deal with anyone with such a public criminal track record of lying and stealing. We are not talking about opinions about KT, but known facts. I also don't care what Pro is shmoozed into endorsing the IPT: As long at KT has anything to do with it, I think the pool community should shun them.

Also, I don?t automatically believe anything that comes out of that man?s mouth, and I would like to see proof that he actually invested ?missions of his own dollars? into the IPT, before I believe it.

 

[Island Drive]

What's interesting about the whole KT debacle, and from both sides of the fence...why hasn't KT personally gone out on a limb, not a financial one but on a personal level telling others in the public eye that he can and will be different in the future. Because of him NOT being proactive in this area, and mind you....he's had plenty of time...I'm moralistically with Jay on this one. If you ever had a very close friend who did a similar act to you, but never humbled him or herself and apologized, would you still want to have a realtionship...I know the way I raised my kids they would'nt.
If Hillary walked away from Bill when he was caught fooling around with Monica L. I would have ALLOT of respect for that women...but have very little because ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDLY, just ask the quiet GURU.

 

[Williebetmore]

IPT knows that if they are ever gonna get support from the poolworld they have to pay everyone back.

.

Roy,
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the essential problem here. The initial support for the IPT was based on the assumption (explicitly stated by KT), that he was in it for the good of the game, and would cover the costs "out of his own pocket" for the first 2 years.

We now know that assumption was false (KT lied, what a surprise) - he was in it for the cash, and had no intention of going too deep into his pockets. It is unreasonable to think that he will ever be able to repeat the widespread level of support that he had initially, when it is obvious that he is only in it to make a buck (like most other promoters).

In addition, I have no confirmation that the vendors who were stiffed by KT were ever re-paid...some of them post here and perhaps will weigh in.

 

[VKJ]

I guess we all have a different morality. The man was a proven liar and con man and ran true to form in what transpired with the first incarnation of the IPT. Why anybody would get back into bed with him is beyond me, but we all must make our own choices, and live with them. If I never heard his name again, it wouldn't bother me one iota.

I hesitate to say this, but I guess some people would take up with the devil, if they saw a chance to enrich themselves. Just doesn't work for me though. I have a problem. It's called conscience.

This says it all. Just perfect. Pool is vulnerable to con artists like KT because of the history of low cash winnings. He scams on a high level. Take a look at the 60 minute expose on him. Google him and his history. Nuf said.
Wake up folks!