Irving Crane 150 and out

well

jay helfert said:
WATCH THIS VIDEO!!! It's worth taking an hour or so out of your day! Then tell me if the "old time" players were as good as the present day players.

I grew up watching Balsis, Crane, Lassiter and Worst. Mosconi and Caras were primarily exhibition players by then (although Caras came back to win one more U.S. Open the following year - 1967).

Check out the opening shot of this remarkable run. A trick shot worthy of "The Hustler". It exemplifies the knowledge that Crane had. If you pay attention you will see one of the great pool minds at work. His cue ball control/speed is masterful, his shot making superb. Yes, the pockets may have been four and three quarters, but notice everything is going in the center, not sliding off the rails.

Watch how well he handles the bridge, how he understands the pack and the proper way to break the balls. When he needs to, he can bunt balls open just like Efren, or he can whack the balls hard if required. I believe he only had to change his break shot one time. Notice the cue ball control on his break shots, and how well he executes combinations.

Notice also the safety battle at the beginning of the match, in particular the two rail kick that Crane uses to bury the cue ball in the back of the pack. Notice how much time he takes to shoot, only hesitating for a few difficult shots. Notice how solid he is at the table, nothing moving except his arm. Watch how he handles the few situations where he is tied up, particularly after the break shot.

The table is a Gold Crown I, and it just plays perfect with no roll offs anywhere. And the referee Bob Sterling is superb as well. He was a 100 ball runner himself. "Whispering" Joe Wilson is the commentator, one of the best of his era. Crane was 53, at the tail end of a great career and Balsis was 45, still in his prime.

Thank God for this glimpse of one of the greatest pool players of all time. This is why I am not so quick to anoint today's champions as the greatest players ever. No offense to John Schmidt, Thorsten Hohmann or Thomas Engert (all terrific players), but Irving Crane was a better Straight Pool player than any of them, IMHO. He was truly a MASTERFUL pool player!
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i agree hes awesome .although thats nothing i havent seen thorston,oliver,souqet,harriman,engert ,myself do many many times.to say hes a better more masterful player seems a little off.you must remember jay todays top players play 14.1 rarely including myself.engert has over 6 300 ball runs including 491.if you think todays best arent as good as those guys than we just have different opinions.also todays players play on tighter equipment on a reguler basis.
 
Hi Folks,

After reading the replies to this thread, I realize how fortunate those of us here in Rochester really were. At the same time during the 70's at Ridge Billiards (now Classic) Irving, Mike Sigel, Pat Howey and Larry Hubbart graced the tables.

One of the posters noted that Irv barely broke a smile after winning the match shown. Remember his nickname was "The Deacon"! A fitting name if ever there was one.

Lyn
 
Hi John,

I have great respect for your ability at all games. I do feel with the advent of faster cloth and more consistant billiard balls, modern players have an advantage. As far as the tighter equipment, I can only wish you had the opportunity to watch Irv on a 5 x 10 as I did. He would have been competative regardless of the equipment used.

Lyn
 
Neil...I'd guess he was practicing a little, for an exhibition. Most top players from that era, did not play to "enjoy" the game, as we do. Many didn't practice either! One of my mentors, Jack White, never played pool, except when he was "working", doing an exhibition; or gambling. In 37 years of knowing him personally, he NEVER practiced, and I can count on one hand the number of times he played pool for fun.:eek: Sure glad I don't feel that way!:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
john schmidt said:
i agree hes awesome .although thats nothing i havent seen thorston,oliver,souqet,harriman,engert ,myself do many many times.t
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Agreed, but this was also the finals of the U.S. Open.
 
john schmidt said:
i agree hes awesome .although thats nothing i havent seen thorston,oliver,souqet,harriman,engert ,myself do many many times.to say hes a better more masterful player seems a little off.you must remember jay todays top players play 14.1 rarely including myself.engert has over 6 300 ball runs including 491.if you think todays best arent as good as those guys than we just have different opinions.also todays players play on tighter equipment on a reguler basis.
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Okay John, YOU'RE THE GREATEST....EVER!!!! :)

Just teasing you buddy. You are pretty good, and so are the others you mention. But it chaffs me when people say that today's players are BETTER than the old time greats. I think Crane was just as good as any player today and maybe better at one game, Straight Pool. I'd like to hear opinions from other guys who have seen Crane and his compatriots play, like Freddie and Danny and Rempe and Butera for instance. If they said that today's 14.1 players are better I would be suitably impressed.

Something about the way he cleared the table and read the pack and controlled the cue ball, really stand out in my mind. And his safety play is superlative as well. Crane's overall knowledge of the game is the big difference in my opinion, and maybe it is because he played Straight Pool almost exclusively for 50 years. Personally I'm glad to see some 14.1 being played today. I'd love to see your 400 ball run on DVD. Still waiting. ;)
 
equipment

I can't claim to have seen yesterday's or today's greats play 14.1 except on video. However I have played on both types of equipment, even back and forth during the same day. The old deep nap tables were like a putting green, slow and very direction sensitive. The new cloth and cushions are like satin sheets compared to the old stuff. The fast cloth and cushions of that day weren't as fast as today's either so the difference is even greater now. Not taking anything away from John and today's players but if a person hasn't played on the old monsters they simply can't grasp the difference.

I think the greats would be great whenever they played, old times or new, but I also know there was a lot more to master with the old equipment simply because I have played on both.

Hu



jay helfert said:
Okay John, YOU'RE THE GREATEST....EVER!!!! :)

Just teasing you buddy. You are pretty good, and so are the others you mention. But it chaffs me when people say that today's players are BETTER than the old time greats. I think Crane was just as good as any player today and maybe better at one game, Straight Pool. I'd like to hear opinions from other guys who have seen Crane and his compatriots play, like Freddie and Danny and Rempe and Butera for instance. If they said that today's 14.1 players are better I would be suitably impressed.

Something about the way he cleared the table and read the pack and controlled the cue ball, really stand out in my mind. And his safety play is superlative as well. Crane's overall knowledge of the game is the big difference in my opinion, and maybe it is because he played Straight Pool almost exclusively for 50 years. Personally I'm glad to see some 14.1 being played today. I'd love to see your 400 ball run on DVD. Still waiting. ;)
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hi

thats my point exactly.im not saying we are better today .i just think todays best is as good as those guys and vice versa thats all.it bothers me when people say those guys are better players then which jay did.for one ive watched those guys and they are great at 14.1 but if you think the best today could not hang with them your not looking very closely.or you dont play 14.1 world class which would lead to not noticing the same things a top player would.
 
john schmidt said:
thats my point exactly.im not saying we are better today .i just think todays best is as good as those guys and vice versa thats all.it bothers me when people say those guys are better players then which jay did.for one ive watched those guys and they are great at 14.1 but if you think the best today could not hang with them your not looking very closely.or you dont play 14.1 world class which would lead to not noticing the same things a top player would.
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There was a thread a while back where some people were claiming that the old timers wouldn't stand a chance against today's players. I think that is what Jay is talking about, not that they were better but they could hang with the top players today like yourself. People were disrespecting the old timers and they aren't around to defend themselves anymore.
 
watching

john schmidt said:
thats my point exactly.im not saying we are better today .i just think todays best is as good as those guys and vice versa thats all.it bothers me when people say those guys are better players then which jay did.for one ive watched those guys and they are great at 14.1 but if you think the best today could not hang with them your not looking very closely.or you dont play 14.1 world class which would lead to not noticing the same things a top player would.
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John,

I have probably watched your 245 DVD close to a dozen times now. I have watched some of the old greats near their prime too but that was many years ago. Even if I had perfect memory with the difference in equipment it is almost like arguing if a great clay court tennis player is better than a great grass court player. There isn't a common point of reference when the old players and this generation were both at their peak. There will always be the questions, how would Irving Crane play today had he been born thirty years ago; how would you have played on that equipment if it was what you had learned on? We will never know the answer to either question so it is best to acknowledge that both eras produced great players without trying to make an absolute statement as to who is/was the greatest.

The best of all time? I honestly don't have a clue. I think he is still to come though. I see some players still in their teens that are scary smart about pool. Forty years ago it was rare to run into someone your age that knew as much as these kids do. If one of these kids develops an obsession with 14.1, ten, twenty years down the road they may be the greatest 14.1 player until that date. Skills have always came fairly young. Knowledge available to youth may see 14.1 and pool in general taken to new levels.

Hu
 
john schmidt said:
thats my point exactly.im not saying we are better today .i just think todays best is as good as those guys and vice versa thats all.it bothers me when people say those guys are better players then which jay did.for one ive watched those guys and they are great at 14.1 but if you think the best today could not hang with them your not looking very closely.or you dont play 14.1 world class which would lead to not noticing the same things a top player would.
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John,

Next time you see Ray Martin, ask him how he would rank Crane against todays' 14.1 players. You might respect his opinion more than mine, since I have yet to run 100 balls. :)
 
hi

jay helfert said:
John,

Next time you see Ray Martin, ask him how he would rank Crane against todays' 14.1 players. You might respect his opinion more than mine, since I have yet to run 100 balls. :)
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of course hes going to say those guys in the old days were better,thats human nature.also i dont need to ask anybody ive seen with my own eyes how the top players of today play and trust they play as good or better than anybody ever.thats how sports evolve ,people get better over time not worse.the only thing is todays players play the game part time and they still run 3-4 hundred at a time.
 
I can't seem to remember if 150 and out is the Open final record or not. Can anybody comment on this? I'm not sure where to look it up.
Who else has run 150 and out in an Open or World Championship final?
 
john schmidt said:
of course hes going to say those guys in the old days were better,thats human nature.also i dont need to ask anybody ive seen with my own eyes how the top players of today play and trust they play as good or better than anybody ever.thats how sports evolve ,people get better over time not worse.the only thing is todays players play the game part time and they still run 3-4 hundred at a time.
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I'm with you John. We old timers would like to think that our time had the better players, but the truth is like you said, things always get better. And pool players are no exception.

I believe even the equiptment of today is harder than in the past (excepting the fact of the old clay balls). I believe that if straight pool was as popular today like it was in the past there would be even more 400 runs by more players.

Your two 400 runs might have been 500 on past equiptment. I'm looking foward for you to run 527. Of course on that day you will devalue my autographed poster of Mosconi doing 526. Good luck.
 
hi

again i dont think todays players are better.i just dont think they are worse which is what jay helfort eluded to.i think todays players play the same and they manage to do it at a younger age for many reasons.there is also alot more great players today than the 50-80s.luther lassiter or irving crane would have been champs today .the only difference is instead of only 10 people in the world that could play them even there is 100.thats all im saying. take care
 
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