Is it worth it to ramp up the hourly rate until tables sit unrented?

[CreeDo]

Recently I went to shoot at Breakers in Herndon, VA. It's a nice place, the sky lounge is small but has good equipment, awesome view. As I went up the stairs the noise was deafening, I expected to see a zillion people.

And I did. But only 3 out of 6 tables were rented. Everyone was around the bar, sitting at tables, etc. This is on a weekend.

Later, after five hours of playing with my buddy, we faint from sticker shock when get the bill... $96 for table time. That's an expensive night out. It turns out the weekend rate is a flat $18/hour regardless of how many players there are.

I think at some point all of the tables were actually rented. So I guess it's economics 101: If you have a waiting list, keep raising the prices until the list is very short or there's no list. You want the highest price the market will bear that keeps all of your tables going.

I know pool halls have been closing left and right and it's hard to make a profit out of them. This one apparently is under its third owner and was closed for a while as well. I know they have to make their money. But... ouch.

So I guess my question is... should a pool hall charge less than this magic number, just out of love for the game and the players? Or should they stick to the figure that maximizes profit even if it means sometimes a table or two sits idle?

 

[justadub]

I suppose the answer to that is to ask another question: Is the place primarily a bar, or primarily a pool room?

I'm thinking if it's primarily a bar, then yes, keep raising the rates so long as people are using the tables. They obviously have their main business catered to if there are a bunch of people there drinking, which is why they are in business.

If it's primarily a pool room destination, perhaps they'd try to go the other direction, in order to get more people in the room in the first place, and maybe they'd buy some drinks or food while they're waiting for a table.

Just random thoughts, as I sit here goofing off at work.

 

[Black-Balled]

I am in the area, wish I woulda been there.

$18/hr..glad I wasn't!

 

[C.Milian]

I'm against high hourly rates.

 

[Cameron Smith]

High rates are bad for pool as a sport imo. If you need to own a table in order to practice than there is a problem.

However, if the owner has the tables occupied at such a high rate then there is no reason to change anything. If on the other hand it was empty, then there is a problem.

 

[Quesports]

Yikes!

$18.00 per hour for pool, you got to be kidding!! That is what you might expect to pay at a really nice golf course for a round of golf. If pool get's that expensive I will only play at private homes. Wow is my only thought, I'll be doubly sure to ask about rates everywhere I go in the future!

 

[Houstoer]

Wow that's ridiculous. Don't think I would ever go back to that place. For that price an hour I could buy me some Kamui chalk !:thumbup:

 

[Celtic]

It depends on the place TBH.

From your post it sounds like this place is pretty nice and upscale. You have to expect premium prices when you are in a premium place.

Pool needs all levels, we have a ton of cheap pool halls with crappy bars with a poor selection and terrible kitchens and you pay your minimal price/hour for your pool and play in a place that is lets be honest, a dump.

Or you get into a high class place with a phenomenal ambiance, as you said an amazing view, a high class clientelle, a properly made margarita with real squeezed lime juice instead of mix a fancy bar made of carved hardwood. Instead of spending your whole night in a dump playing pool while a guy sells dime bags out of a stall in the washroom you are spending your night in a cool place that you will remember fondly.

It reminds me of Vegas, there are alot of cheaper places to go in Vegas, you can stay at Circus Circus and save over $100 a day on your room. But then when you walk to the Wynn and look through the window at people basking in the sun at the really cool pool that you are not allowed into you realize WHY they are paying the money and what you are missing out on by saving yours.

Someone brought up golf, you can play a POS city course in Vegas for about $20, it will not be watered, the fairways are mostly dirt, the greens are crap, the clubs you rent are a mixed assorment of 30 year old garbage that have been through years of abuse. OR, you can spend over $100 for a round and play on a well watered course that is in prestine condition and that was designed by a legend with cool island greens, elevated tees, waterfalls, a nice new set of callaway rentals, ect... I have played the POS course and I have played the awesome one, the money I "saved" on the POS course was a waste, I would have rather put in the extra cash and got a memory and experience of playing on a nice tropical paradise of a course in the desert.

 

[JUSTABANGER 2]

Once would be one time to many

Wow I'd never play there again. I keep saying what a good deal we get at Big Dogs in Des Moines it's $10 to rent a table from the time they open till midnight. and thats 7 & 9 foot Diamonds 9 foot GC's or 7 foot Valleys. I don't know if that price will hold when they open the new hall or not.

 

[rayjay]

Wow that's ridiculous. Don't think I would ever go back to that place. For that price an hour I could buy me some Kamui chalk !:thumbup:

Exactly.
:thumbup:

 

[KRJ]

hmmm

It depends on the place TBH.

From your post it sounds like this place is pretty nice and upscale. You have to expect premium prices when you are in a premium place.

Pool needs all levels, we have a ton of cheap pool halls with crappy bars with a poor selection and terrible kitchens and you pay your minimal price/hour for your pool and play in a place that is lets be honest, a dump.

Or you get into a high class place with a phenomenal ambiance, as you said an amazing view, a high class clientelle, a properly made margarita with real squeezed lime juice instead of mix a fancy bar made of carved hardwood. Instead of spending your whole night in a dump playing pool while a guy sells dime bags out of a stall in the washroom you are spending your night in a cool place that you will remember fondly.

It reminds me of Vegas, there are alot of cheaper places to go in Vegas, you can stay at Circus Circus and save over $100 a day on your room. But then when you walk to the Wynn and look through the window at people basking in the sun at the really cool pool that you are not allowed into you realize WHY they are paying the money and what you are missing out on by saving yours.

Someone brought up golf, you can play a POS city course in Vegas for about $20, it will not be watered, the fairways are mostly dirt, the greens are crap, the clubs you rent are a mixed assorment of 30 year old garbage that have been through years of abuse. OR, you can spend over $100 for a round and play on a well watered course that is in prestine condition and that was designed by a legend with cool island greens, elevated tees, waterfalls, a nice new set of callaway rentals, ect... I have played the POS course and I have played the awesome one, the money I "saved" on the POS course was a waste, I would have rather put in the extra cash and got a memory and experience of playing on a nice tropical paradise of a course in the desert.

Agree ! Depends on the place and location. I played at Dave and Busters when they first opened in Chicago area many years ago. It was like $8 per hour back then which was high. But the tables were immaculate, the balls were polished, the chalk was not little broken pieces, but new, and they even walked you to the table, racked the balls for your first game. Heck, even the rack was a heavy, solid wood rack. And the food was great, and there was enough room to eat and drink, service was great and a very pleasant place to play. With food, drinks and table time for 7 hours of play it was over $100... but had a great time. Maybe not a place for steady practicing but a nice place to play when you want something a little better once in awhile.......

 

[tedkaufman]

Chelsea Billiards

I used to hang out at Chelsea Billiards in Manhattan, in the aftermath of the Color of Money surge. Prior to Chelsea, I played at Jullian's Billiards, which was a charming dive. And for a very long time, Jullians was the only pool hall in all of Manhattan until Chelsea opened.

The owner of Chelsea, Gene (can't recall his last name), had never owned a pool hall. But he had a grand idea--to make pool upscale. At this time (mid 80's), the pool world had never seen the likes of Chelsea Billiards. There were over 50 Brunswick GC 9', two 12' snooker tables, and a couple of 3c tables. It was open 24/7, and Gene encouraged gamblers, hustlers and road pros to visit. In the evenings, it took on the atmosphere of a night club. Lots of suits and evening gowns. It became the "in" place to be, and be seen. After 8pm, there was nearly always a wait for a table, ofter for over an hour. And this would continue every night until 2-4am. Fridays and Saturdays were crazy.

Table time at Jullians was $2 or $3. But Chelsea charged the then unheard of price of $12 + $6 for each additional player. And it was a madhouse! Gene could have charged $20 an hour at that time.

So, was he wrong for charging so much? As a businessman, I think he did what he could to maximize his profits, and rightly so. As a player, I thought the time fees were an outrage.

Currently, I live in Greenville, SC. Here, The Palace, a homey sort of room with decent Gandy tables is $3 an hour. Go there at lunch and for $6 you get a sandwich and soda and free pool. I can practice any night for a long as my back will hold out and never need break more than a $20. I do sometimes miss the buzz of Chelsea Billiards, but I'll take $3/hr pool any day.

 

[dr9ball]

Creedo,

You just visited at the wrong time.

I play at Breakers in Herndon a lot but usually Saturday or Sunday during the day for the lunch special. Spend $10 on food or drink and get free pool.

Wish you'd told me you were coming to town. It's always nice to meet other AZB'ers.

Recently I went to shoot at Breakers in Herndon, VA. It's a nice place, the sky lounge is small but has good equipment, awesome view. As I went up the stairs the noise was deafening, I expected to see a zillion people.

And I did. But only 3 out of 6 tables were rented. Everyone was around the bar, sitting at tables, etc. This is on a weekend.

Later, after five hours of playing with my buddy, we faint from sticker shock when get the bill... $96 for table time. That's an expensive night out. It turns out the weekend rate is a flat $18/hour regardless of how many players there are.

I think at some point all of the tables were actually rented. So I guess it's economics 101: If you have a waiting list, keep raising the prices until the list is very short or there's no list. You want the highest price the market will bear that keeps all of your tables going.

I know pool halls have been closing left and right and it's hard to make a profit out of them. This one apparently is under its third owner and was closed for a while as well. I know they have to make their money. But... ouch.

So I guess my question is... should a pool hall charge less than this magic number, just out of love for the game and the players? Or should they stick to the figure that maximizes profit even if it means sometimes a table or two sits idle?

 

[Rich R.]

If they keep raising prices until the waiting list is gone, sooner or later, they won't have a waiting list and they will have lost a lot of customers to a less expensive pool hall. Once a customer is gone, it is hell getting them back. Breakers better hope another pool room doesn't open in the area.

 

[naji]

Recently I went to shoot at Breakers in Herndon, VA. It's a nice place, the sky lounge is small but has good equipment, awesome view. As I went up the stairs the noise was deafening, I expected to see a zillion people.

And I did. But only 3 out of 6 tables were rented. Everyone was around the bar, sitting at tables, etc. This is on a weekend.

Later, after five hours of playing with my buddy, we faint from sticker shock when get the bill... $96 for table time. That's an expensive night out. It turns out the weekend rate is a flat $18/hour regardless of how many players there are.

I think at some point all of the tables were actually rented. So I guess it's economics 101: If you have a waiting list, keep raising the prices until the list is very short or there's no list. You want the highest price the market will bear that keeps all of your tables going.

I know pool halls have been closing left and right and it's hard to make a profit out of them. This one apparently is under its third owner and was closed for a while as well. I know they have to make their money. But... ouch.

So I guess my question is... should a pool hall charge less than this magic number, just out of love for the game and the players? Or should they stick to the figure that maximizes profit even if it means sometimes a table or two sits idle?

Herndon, VA median household income is 90k, that is median, which really means many have six figures income, the area is technology bushiness, many data centers in that area, so it is supply and demand, and many can afford it. Plus the pool hall location is premium sport and i am sure has high rent. In general DC, and Northern VA pool is expensive, some offer off peak incentives, before 5 pm.

 

[cueandcushion]

Seems he is trying to cater to a specific clientele. Hard to do this with pool anymore. The more expensive your tables, the more likely you are to keep them clean and in good playing condition. They just get played a lot less and by people who are less likely to abuse them. $18/hour for table time is not outrageous. Just that many pool halls are in poor neighborhoods so the price is disproportionally cheap. Sounds like his prices just reflect the rent of the area. From a psychological point you really DON'T want all your tables rented. Most people hate waiting and many people want a selection of tables in terms of location in the room when having a night out. Many people on AZ forget that MOST of the people that play pool are just having a good time. They are not serious pool players. The mentality for that demographic is very very different. So you have a different business model to go after those customers. Its about creating a fun atmosphere and a destination, not creating a cheap place to play pool.

 

[klockdoc]

Many of the sports bar pool halls today will give their table time away for free or at a minimum charge in order to get you in the business to purchase food or drink.

Food accounts for about 35% of revenue...liquor 55% and pool...15%.

Pool halls that do not offer food or liquor, generally keep their prices low to attract customers.

 

[Oregonmeds]

Like you said the place was packed yet all the tables weren't even full. That means it may look like a pool hall, but pool is not really the main attraction or money maker there, it's more of a nightclub or upscale bar and they're charging those prices to draw in a higher income crowd/ exclude the rest. If it was packed anyway it's working... They must be making a profit tables empty or not.

I won't spend that kind of money to play. A couple days playing at those prices could cover everything I've spent on my own table, and a couple more days would get me my own new simonis cloth. It's not like a golf course where you couldn't possibly ever just have your own, and I can think of better things to do or places to go with that kind of cash than to go out and play pool.

 

[pro9dg]

When I owned a snooker/pool room we used to have a sliding scale of charges for tables. These are adjusted dollar/pound figures -
The rate at 7pm was $12 and it went down by $1 an hour until 4am. Then you could play for $3 an hour until 7pm on Monday to Thursday. On weekends the rate would rise by $1 an hour from 11am until 5pm. Then from 5pm to 7pm it was FREE to new bookers.

The place was open 24/7 and the tables were rarely empty. The status seekers had no problem about paying the higher charges and the FREE hours attracted players who would stay on at the premium rate. All these changes were handled automatically but with manual override.

It also had benefits from patrons using the gaming machines for long hours and at one time we had to limit the time that they could play the two machine to which we were restricted.

 

[gunzby]

I figure it this way. If you have people waiting to get a table all the time then you have people with time on their hands to buy drinks and food while they wait.