Issues Blowing Up At The Tornado Open
- Thread starter John Disque
- Start date
Everyone values your opinion on these matters. I was just elated to read Stu's words in an effort to calm the waters.
I realize you have way more experience in this arena than 99.9 percent of the people on AzBilliards. Your words hold a lot of weight for sure!
Of course, you have my support.
I need to get this off my chest. The bottom line of this story was all about personal greed. The people who spoke out about the promoter's behavior were 100% correct. The people who support this kind of thing are enablers imo. Kind of reminds me of all those who made excuses for Barry B. when he wrote bad checks, paid people months late and didn't pay others at all.
As long as people are wiling to accept this kind of behavior then it will continue. I stand on my record as an honorable promoter of billiard events and I know that every time a promoter acts in a negligent manner it reflects on all of us who are trying to do the right thing. I've done my thirty plus years of service to the billiard industry and I'm ready for others to take over, but I want honorable people and not charlatans in charge of our important events.
The U.S. Open is blessed to have Pat Fleming running it this year. I'm confident he will do a good job and things will run smoothly. Good luck to the pool world is all I have to say.
As long as people are wiling to accept this kind of behavior then it will continue. I stand on my record as an honorable promoter of billiard events and I know that every time a promoter acts in a negligent manner it reflects on all of us who are trying to do the right thing. I've done my thirty plus years of service to the billiard industry and I'm ready for others to take over, but I want honorable people and not charlatans in charge of our important events.
The U.S. Open is blessed to have Pat Fleming running it this year. I'm confident he will do a good job and things will run smoothly. Good luck to the pool world is all I have to say.
Exactly!
Jay,
I know you have the west coast nailed down as far as the full story goes.
No one is bashing here:
I do not speak up unless I see something bad, like "Hey the bridge is out, don't go there!"
We are concerned.
What I saw and heard and experienced are MORE than ample proof (also vid and film)
When someone shows you who they are, believe them.
I couldn't stomach hearing the excuse year after year for the blatant fraud, disrespect,
and my favorite one, "We didn't make the gate so we couldn't pay out"
and everyone singing "Oh that's just Barry being Barry"
Heaven forbid if I have to hear "Oh that's just Vivian being Vivian" for 40 years when we have fact and proof on film, in sound, writing and video of her totally telling us
"I just don't care about the men" and "You need me, I don't need you"
This doesn't offend your ears, your eyes, your head, your heart??
She is not a nice person.
She may have her nice days,
but she as a person is no one I would trust,
or associate with, not for free and not for money after the way I saw and heard her treat all those around her, the players, the vendors and her own mother.
Nothing justifies that.
You cannot defend the indefensible.
She has shown me all I need to see and I have said my peace.
SJM, you have more than a few people who participated who can deny or verify everything I've written and that's to say nothing of what I did not write.
If this is an acceptable way to treat not just Champions but people, because she can throw a few dollars at them, if it suits her mood,
lets you and me and Jay buy 3 nice set of metal darts, tape $100. bills to them,
line up our favorite players and throw our darts at them.
They'll have to pay 1000 up front first of course
Sure they may get hurt, but they're getting some money, so who cares.
And if any of them make a noise when they get hit, we'll call them crybabies and say you don't deserve our money if you can't stay still and take it.
:angry:
Jay,
I know you have the west coast nailed down as far as the full story goes.
No one is bashing here:
I do not speak up unless I see something bad, like "Hey the bridge is out, don't go there!"
We are concerned.
What I saw and heard and experienced are MORE than ample proof (also vid and film)
When someone shows you who they are, believe them.
I couldn't stomach hearing the excuse year after year for the blatant fraud, disrespect,
and my favorite one, "We didn't make the gate so we couldn't pay out"
and everyone singing "Oh that's just Barry being Barry"
Heaven forbid if I have to hear "Oh that's just Vivian being Vivian" for 40 years when we have fact and proof on film, in sound, writing and video of her totally telling us
"I just don't care about the men" and "You need me, I don't need you"
This doesn't offend your ears, your eyes, your head, your heart??
She is not a nice person.
She may have her nice days,
but she as a person is no one I would trust,
or associate with, not for free and not for money after the way I saw and heard her treat all those around her, the players, the vendors and her own mother.
Nothing justifies that.
You cannot defend the indefensible.
She has shown me all I need to see and I have said my peace.
SJM, you have more than a few people who participated who can deny or verify everything I've written and that's to say nothing of what I did not write.
If this is an acceptable way to treat not just Champions but people, because she can throw a few dollars at them, if it suits her mood,
lets you and me and Jay buy 3 nice set of metal darts, tape $100. bills to them,
line up our favorite players and throw our darts at them.
They'll have to pay 1000 up front first of course
Sure they may get hurt, but they're getting some money, so who cares.
And if any of them make a noise when they get hit, we'll call them crybabies and say you don't deserve our money if you can't stay still and take it.
:angry:
What I took from Jay's post was that he was actually agreeing with you.
On a different note, this has been said on here countless times but I'm going to offer an example as to the why part of it. Everyone always asks why do the players continue to deal with promoters if they have had bad experiences with them or KNOW many others have??? I see it like this - When you own and start up a new business venture ( pool players are essentially small business owners ) you always have to take on jobs that for a plethora of reasons you do not want to take. You do so because YOU NEED the work; the money. While this next statement is a little of apples to oranges it is still the same thing : as a new startup often times you will have only limited opportunities in which you can pick from ( or are even offered at all ). As a pool player their " jobs " are limited too. It's not the problem of not having many to pick from but rather not that many in totality. In business once you are established often times you are afforded the luxury of being able to pick and chose and it's not a big deal. Not so much when you are a pool player. I'm certain they're are many pool players that on principles like to be able to tell this or that promoter, sponsor, backer, etc to take this job and...........That just is not the reality of the industry though for 99.99999999% of the players. Answer : nope, sorry.
This is-
Hi BmoreMoney,
You're right, it seems like I'm disagreeing with Jay (I'm not).
when it's me talking with two people I know and have an affinity for (Jay and sjm) about what a "no-brainer' this is.
The rest of you just happen to be privy to the conversation.
Perhaps it does not help that I started reading pages of the thread and it raised my ire a bit and reflects in my writing.
Hi BmoreMoney,
You're right, it seems like I'm disagreeing with Jay (I'm not).
when it's me talking with two people I know and have an affinity for (Jay and sjm) about what a "no-brainer' this is.
The rest of you just happen to be privy to the conversation.
Perhaps it does not help that I started reading pages of the thread and it raised my ire a bit and reflects in my writing.
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Guess that as I learn more, I may choose to take a different view.
Well, I was not there, but I did mention this to Keith, asking him about Vivian, as I read so many untoward remarks about her personally.
He had some thoughts on the topic, which I'll let him share if he wants. Basically, he said he gets along with Vivian but can understand how others are rubbed the wrong way.
Some of the remarks about Vivian, IMO, on this thread and others had nothing to do with the tournament. They were a direct attack on her personally as a person, which I found distasteful to read. I guess that is what I found unsettling.
I don't know her, only that she likes to whistle when she plays pool. That's about it.
He had some thoughts on the topic, which I'll let him share if he wants. Basically, he said he gets along with Vivian but can understand how others are rubbed the wrong way.
Some of the remarks about Vivian, IMO, on this thread and others had nothing to do with the tournament. They were a direct attack on her personally as a person, which I found distasteful to read. I guess that is what I found unsettling.
I don't know her, only that she likes to whistle when she plays pool. That's about it.
(sigh)
HI Jam,
I've often found out (the hard way) that talent and character don't necessarily
go hand in hand.
Mostly these happened for money (greed) and ego (selfishness).
The plus side is there are many of us who know what pool can be and are working, often times for very little or for free, because we love the magic and joy of the table.
The people who make the balls sing,
the champions that do battle and the ones who chronicle the statistics and happenings surrounding matches,
and the ones who create events,
must be in agreeance, that we cumulatively are currently the best line of defense against bad behavior.
Speaking out against unfair treatment on social media, when it affects so many more people than just the individual, is our obligation.
Don't get me wrong,
I know better than to knock another guy's action, but this is not that time.
With all this corroboration, let us agree forewarned is forearmed!
Stay well,
a
Well, I was not there, but I did mention this to Keith, asking him about Vivian, as I read so many untoward remarks about her personally.
He had some thoughts on the topic, which I'll let him share if he wants. Basically, he said he gets along with Vivian but can understand how others are rubbed the wrong way.
Some of the remarks about Vivian, IMO, on this thread and others had nothing to do with the tournament. They were a direct attack on her personally as a person, which I found distasteful to read. I guess that is what I found unsettling.
I don't know her, only that she likes to whistle when she plays pool. That's about it.
HI Jam,
I've often found out (the hard way) that talent and character don't necessarily
go hand in hand.
Mostly these happened for money (greed) and ego (selfishness).
The plus side is there are many of us who know what pool can be and are working, often times for very little or for free, because we love the magic and joy of the table.
The people who make the balls sing,
the champions that do battle and the ones who chronicle the statistics and happenings surrounding matches,
and the ones who create events,
must be in agreeance, that we cumulatively are currently the best line of defense against bad behavior.
Speaking out against unfair treatment on social media, when it affects so many more people than just the individual, is our obligation.
Don't get me wrong,
I know better than to knock another guy's action, but this is not that time.
With all this corroboration, let us agree forewarned is forearmed!
Stay well,
a
I don't know any of the parties involved, but somehow from watching the stream and just a feeling I have, I tend to support the players and what Angel has reported. I'm sure it wasn't intentional but , " the rest of you just happen to be privy to the conversation" , sounds like something Vivian would say.
Tongue in Cheek
Part of it was tongue in cheek, given that sjm is English and I was trying to be funny :grin-square:
the other part is,
that I was just like really only chiming in to them as to the contents of my head at that moment, even though I realize that we're in a public place and now you know my noodle
Part of it was tongue in cheek, given that sjm is English and I was trying to be funny :grin-square:
the other part is,
that I was just like really only chiming in to them as to the contents of my head at that moment, even though I realize that we're in a public place and now you know my noodle
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Actually, the reason this doesnt happen in other sports is that the players are millionaires regardless of what happened at a random event.
Part of it was tongue in cheek, given that sjm is English and I was trying to be funny :grin-square:
the other part is,
that I was just like really only chiming in to them as to the contents of my head at that moment, even though I realize that we're in a public place and now you know my noodle
Thank you for a classy reply.
The main reason this doesn't frequently happen in other sports is because the balance of power has been established and is maintained. Nobody can take advantage of anyone else.
Perhaps you are thinking about a time frame more recent than the one I was describing.
I was referring to the period from Jake Schaefer and Frank Ives up to Ralph and Willie, when basically all professional pool was under the auspices of Brunswick and Co.
It was monopolistic but pro pool was reputable and successful.
Again, the balance of power failed ultimately but at least there were standards and the integrity, payouts and management was on target.
One of the main things missing that pro sports has now is proper player representation and accountability.
Well, I was not there, but I did mention this to Keith, asking him about Vivian, as I read so many untoward remarks about her personally.
He had some thoughts on the topic, which I'll let him share if he wants. Basically, he said he gets along with Vivian but can understand how others are rubbed the wrong way.
Some of the remarks about Vivian, IMO, on this thread and others had nothing to do with the tournament. They were a direct attack on her personally as a person, which I found distasteful to read. I guess that is what I found unsettling.
I don't know her, only that she likes to whistle when she plays pool. That's about it.
Jam, I want you to know that I've always gotten along well with Vivian and considered her a friend. But when it comes to operating with ethics and integrity I will always call a spade a spade, I don't care who you are. I have called out my friends before when I've seen them acting in a less than honorable manner. I would expect them to do the same with me.
We all make mistakes from time to time and we need to own up to them and act accordingly in the future. I know I've made my share and I acknowledge that. But when it's been brought to my attention and I realize that I was wrong I will always do my best to correct it if possible and apologize if necessary. I think your buddy Keith will attest to that fact.
P.S. Like so many I miss the Ether. There will never be another like him. The single greatest natural talent I've ever seen with a cue in his hand. He made the impossible look simple!
I have this image of Keith in my head - firing balls in from every conceivable angle, prancing around the table, throwing out one liners between shots, dismantling a tough rack like it's child's play.
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Since I don't the have the time or willingness to read all 300+ posts, there's one thing for sure in pool when it comes to promoting and using large numbers to create an event. When I first heard of 100K added....my mind went somewhere else, as it did when I first heard about the great teaching invention developed for beginners called ''rack around''. Herding cats and pencil pushing casinos are tough action. I think with 40K added they could of gotten just as good results if not better.
John Disque
Banned
Interview with Tony Chohan & Josh Roberts
Interview with Tony Chohan & Josh Roberts on this very issue....
(Starts about 1/2 way through the show).
http://www.americanbilliardradio.com/
Interview with Tony Chohan & Josh Roberts on this very issue....
(Starts about 1/2 way through the show).
http://www.americanbilliardradio.com/
BTW, the Billiard Buzz editorial brings up a question that's been bugging me: Why should added money depend on filling the field? It seems if you advertise "$10k Added" or whatever, you should have that money already available. The added money is not dependent on how much you collect in entry fees.
If is the standard custom that the added money is dependent on filling the field?
If is the standard custom that the added money is dependent on filling the field?