Issues with Jim Lee, Part 2.

XxMerlinxX

XxMerlinxX

Pleased As Punch
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hey guys, so as you may have noticed, the original thread was deleted due to some members going at each other. I messaged Mr. Wilson and was told the reason, which I think is fair, and was given the go ahead to post up a second thread that is something of an update to the first. Hopefully this thread will stick around, so I'm going to give a very condensed version of the history behind all of this, then I'll make the update.

I originally ordered a cue from Jim Lee 2 years ago, a year of which was simply planning and ironing out details. After getting everything set in stone, Jim gave me a firm completion date of 8 months, stating that in all actuality it would be less than that. After the 8 months were up, I contacted him again and was told that basically no progress had been made and that no firm completion date would be given. I asked for a refund of my deposit, which he agree to, and he said I would receive it shortly as it was his #1 priority. Shortly turned into more than a month and when I contacted him by phone, it sounded like he didn't know what I was talking about, and that he would have to check his funds. This is after selling not only a $4k-$5k lathe, (I can't remember which it was, he edited that thread) but running a sale on wraps that should have produced another $540. I told Jim I was tired of being jerked around and that I would give him a week before going public on the board in search of a resolution. At this point, Jim then threatened me with holding my deposit money hostage if I did post up on the board. Since I felt like I wasn't ever going to get my money back, I did so anyway.

For those of you who saw the original thread, you know that the above is indeed the short of it and that I was much more detailed in what actually transpired. You also saw that one member, smokey, who started to really get into it with another member, actually offered to refund my deposit in Jim's stead. It bothered me that someone would have to do this for what seemed like a reputable seller, but I did indeed take smokey up on his offer in the hopes that his relationship with Jim would net him better results than it had netted me.

Smokey, I'd like to thank you yet again, and say that what you've done is one of the most stand up actions I've ever seen, especially considering it was all done over the internet. I put in a good word with Mr. Wilson and I hope you get to stick around.

To Jim Lee, I cannot believe you would treat one of your customers in such a fashion. Not only had I ordered that cue from you, but I even told you I was looking forward to having a Jump Cue made and having a titlist converted as well once the first cue was finished. I always think it's kind of funny when I hear the phrase, "You should be ashamed of yourself." as it brings back some amusing childhood memories, but I wish that there was a more serious way of conveying that same thought. I won't resort to name calling, but I definitely have a few choice words I could pin on you.

To the rest of the board, thank you for the support and the green rep, I really do appreciate it.
 
I had partially composed an opinion to post in the first thread but when I looked to view the thread again for some clarification, the thread was gone.
Most of what I'd written then was relevant then but possibly not now.
I have no interest in defending or prosecuting anyone in this matter, I only want to expand on something that was briefly touched-on in the orig. thread.

What I would hope the cue buying public at large would come to understand is that most every time you ask a cue-builder to give you an ETA, you're asking him to subject himself to a lie. He doesn't WANT to do it but you're asking him to tell you SOMETHING. The problem is, he can no more do that honestly, than he can tell you what you will have for lunch in 3 days. He can't predict the future; nobody can.
He can't tell you what will be coming through his door tomorrow, next week or next month. Any one of those future jobs has the potential to upset his entire schedule for every job in his shop. Events that aren't even cue related can cause delays; sometimes, serious delays.

We tend to be optimistic when quoting a time-line because we want your business and we'll do whatever we can to deliver the goods on time. We're aware of customer service. About the time the CM quotes you a date, he realizes that Murphy is standing right behind him. It happens, I know.

I would like you to consider something else. The CM doesn't take your money without every intention of doing what you are paying him to do. Those that do otherwise aren't in business very long.
When a CM starts getting behind and he's realizing he's getting behind, it triggers guilt. This guilt causes stress. I'm someone who has to have his head in a good place before I can do my best work. If I'm under a lot of stress, it will show in my work and I don't want that, for a lot of reasons.
You are part of this man's journey. Please don't be the source of his stress.

I'm not looking to engage in a lengthy debate on my statement. I just wanted to share a view from the other side of the transaction. No guilt, no innocence.
Just an honest observation from someone who's been there.

Man does not control time, time controls man.
 
36hrs awake!!

KJ - I commend you on your post!

I don't think jim would have said it any different. I talked to jim and I think there's a lot more to what was said by side A. Some people choose to only see in simple american ways ways of I want it now and I want everything my way. All you have to do is look at our fast food ridden nation to see that. Seems to me that what one man says, if he says it enough, no matter how true or untrue it is, they will believe the lie and proceed to live it. Its only looking in the mirror that truly matters in the end. But all in all, why cry over 250.00? Look at the drinking habits and smoking habits of people, what's even worse, look at how many familys starve but yet one person can say the milk went sour when in all reality it just wasn't what they wanted all along.

Now I did get a chance to read the last post and yes I am a friend of jimmy's. But look at this from a business aspect if nothing else. If your saying he sold a used lathe for 4-5K that it would not even be that much brand new your already making untrue claims. Who's to say if building cues was your only means of income you would not finish a project that you agreed to finish. Granted it takes the customer more than two years to truly come to terms with what they want, how would you feel if you built houses and everything changed because of the customer?

I'm not going to say your wrong and I'm not going to say your right, its not my place but I do have my opinion! The cue game is and will be a tough business to be in. I can say this Jim Lee is one of the most honest americans I know and has gone out of his way to help others for no reason other than just to do it. I'm glad to see that smokey did what he did but he had no reason to do it, not for you and not for jim. But at least you got someones money out of the deal because in the end it didn't matter what really had or had not been done, did it?

Will you ever tell the whole story?
 
gwjackal said:
KJ - I commend you on your post!

I don't think jim would have said it any different. I talked to jim and I think there's a lot more to what was said by side A. Some people choose to only see in simple american ways ways of I want it now and I want everything my way. All you have to do is look at our fast food ridden nation to see that. Seems to me that what one man says, if he says it enough, no matter how true or untrue it is, they will believe the lie and proceed to live it. Its only looking in the mirror that truly matters in the end. But all in all, why cry over 250.00? Look at the drinking habits and smoking habits of people, what's even worse, look at how many familys starve but yet one person can say the milk went sour when in all reality it just wasn't what they wanted all along.

Now I did get a chance to read the last post and yes I am a friend of jimmy's. But look at this from a business aspect if nothing else. If your saying he sold a used lathe for 4-5K that it would not even be that much brand new your already making untrue claims. Who's to say if building cues was your only means of income you would not finish a project that you agreed to finish. Granted it takes the customer more than two years to truly come to terms with what they want, how would you feel if you built houses and everything changed because of the customer?

I'm not going to say your wrong and I'm not going to say your right, its not my place but I do have my opinion! The cue game is and will be a tough business to be in. I can say this Jim Lee is one of the most honest americans I know and has gone out of his way to help others for no reason other than just to do it. I'm glad to see that smokey did what he did but he had no reason to do it, not for you and not for jim. But at least you got someones money out of the deal because in the end it didn't matter what really had or had not been done, did it?

Will you ever tell the whole story?
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GO TO BED!!! :grin:
LOL
nice talking with yesterday,
sorry i had to cut you off like that
 
It is VERY difficult for me to accept the premise that a cue maker cannot and should not give an expected ETA to a prospective customer. Yes, there is an art to building a custom cue, that can take weeks and months to get just right. But as one who has observed the entire process from beginning to end by some noted builders, it isn't exactly rocket science either. These days with CNC and the other computer tricks of the trade they should know fairly well how long a cue will take from inception to completion. That is, if they follow through on their end, taking all the necessary steps to make it happen.

I think of the building industry when making a comparison with other trades. A contractor on a large project has to give the project owner a date of completion, and if unable to complete the project on schedule could face hefty deductions on their fees. I'm talking about building a large apartment complex from the ground up or an office building that soars fifty or more stories into the sky. Compared to building a single cue, this IS rocket science! And yet they better find a way to get it done on time or face big losses.

My feeling is this. If a cue maker cannot give an estimated time to build a cue, then he should just say so. At least the top builders today let their prospective customers know that it could be years down the road, before they can even begin making a cue for them. The last custom cue I had built for me was by Pete Tascarella. We talked on the phone a couple of times and got everything straight as to what I wanted in the cue regarding the specs etc. He gave me a price and told me to expect it in one year. He DID NOT ask for a deposit. One year later almost to the day, he called me and told my cue would be ready to ship the following week. I sent him the money and the cue was here about one week later. And it was exactly the cue I ordered from him.

I don't think Pete did anything extraordinary, except keep his word to me (and make me a great cue). That is how he does business. I've had similar experiences with Ernie at Ginacue, Tad, Josey and Southwest. I've also had other experiences with cue makers that did not go as well. Not in terms of money, but in terms of getting a timely delivery on what they promised me. These are cue makers who I chose not to do as much (or any) business with in the future.

Just one man's opinion as always.
 
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jay helfert said:
It is VERY difficult for me to accept the premise that a cue maker cannot and should not give an expected ETA to a prospective customer. Yes, there is an art to building a custom cue, that can take weeks and months to get just right. But as one who has observed the entire process from beginning to end by some noted builders, it isn't exactly rocket science either. These days with CNC and the other computer tricks of the trade they should know fairly well how long a cue will take from inception to completion. That is, if they follow through on their end taking all the necessary steps to make it happen.

I think of the building industry when making a comparison with other trades. A contractor on a large project has to give the project owner a date of completion, and if unable to complete the project on schedule could face hefty deductions on their fees. I'm talking about building a large apartment complex from the ground up or an office building that soars fifty or more stories into the sky. Compared to building a single cue, this IS rocket science! And yet they better find a way to get it done on time or face big losses.

My feeling is this. If a cue maker cannot give an estimated time to build one cue, then he should just say so. At least the top builders today let their prospective customers know that it could be years down the road, before they can even begin making a cue for them. The last custom cue I had built for me was by Pete Tascarella. We talked on the phone a couple of times and got everything straight as to what I wanted in the cue regarding the specs etc. He gave me a price and told me to expect it in one year. He DID NOT ask for a deposit. One year later almost to the day, he called me and told my cue would be ready to ship in a few days. I sent him the money and the cue was here a few days later. And it was exactly the cue I ordered from him.

I don't think Pete did anything extraordinary, except keep his word to me. That is how he does business. I've had similar experiences with Ernie at Ginacue, Tad and Southwest. I've also had other experiences with cue makers that did not go as well. Not in terms of money, but in terms of getting a timely delivery on what they promised me. These are cue makers who I chose not to do as much (or any) business with in the future.

Just one man's opinion as always.
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Great post Jay. I had the exact same experience with the Pete's. Quoted 3 yrs... 2yr 11 months go by, I get a call, He wants my exact specs and says the cue will be ready in about a month. 30 days later, I have my cue.

JMW has built me 2 cues and delivered within 2 weeks of quoted time on both.

Maybe Jim Lee should get the same type of watch these guys have.

Ian
 
An accurate delivery date should be promised and kept, and seldom missed. A lot of good cuemakers nearly always meet that date... so it can be done. Order a cue from Scruggs or Black and many others and the cue will be delivered, on time. IMO, too many makers operate underfunded and always seem to get themselves in a mess.
 
Being able to competently manage a schedule is one indicator of the quality of a businessman. Being a good businessman is part of being a good cuesmith.

Customer service is another indicator. One bad transaction offsets an average of something like 7-10 good transactions (or more if the internet is involved). It helps to have a >=98% satisfaction rate these days.

Only the honest, hard working, and good business cuesmiths will get my money. Backing out of deals, withholding refunds, and dismissing peer advice are all horrible business practices, so I will definitely not be ordering a J&D custom in my lifetime.

Smokey, thanks for mediating. It's sad that you have to step in, but I'm glad you're here to do it.
 
Great Post Jay!

Rather than quote Jay and take up space, I completely agree with your post.
The quote is for an Estimated Delivery Date. Yes sometimes there may be things that affect the delivery date but should never extend beyond a resonable timeframe. Somehow some cuemakers think that the customer should wait for extended periods of time because of all kinds of reasons. Personally I find that notion absurd and it normally ends up in a not so friendly transaction. In construction I have myself run over on projects because of work order changes, added projects and the like. I have found it best to be upfront and honest with a client regarding your own schedule, their expectations and the schedule of upcoming projects. Many customers forget that you have to keep rescheduling your next project when you extend their project, it is the old catch 22. This also can happen to cuemakers but they too have to keep to reasonable schedules to meet reasonable expectations of their customers as well. The start of the job is just as important as the finish of the job and no one should expect to wait for extended periods of time for completion..
JMO!!!
Dan
 
Like I said before....pictures pictures pictures.... it is really not that hard to take 1 or 2 pictures and send them. If you do not know how to do this ask. If you do not have time to do this I will say BS because you do have time to do this. If you refuse to do this and keep delaying because of whatever reason, well its just not good business practice or customer service. I am spending X amount of dollars on a product that most likely I will never be able to see it unless I live by the cuemaker until it is done...pictures put peoples mind to ease.

Before I get flamed with these people have families or another job and this is a hobby etc....when you take a deposit for a product that is to be made and delivered to a customer, it is a business transaction. Not everybody has 5-10 cues and they just want another one. Some people have no cue.

I agree that putting a deadline out there puts the added pressure of meeting that deadline, but to the cuemakers that have been doing this for years; they should be able to gauge a decent estimate on this. When outside circumstances delay a cue, just tell your customer what is going on, instead of stringing them along saying this is done, or that is done with no pictures. This is 2010....I know the cuemakers know how to post or send pictures...so do it...it takes 10-20 minutes max.

Props to Smokey for the kind gesture.
 
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Where's Smokey when you need him?

Great posts KJ & GW. Always like to hear things from the cuemaker perspective.

And as always, there are 2 sides to any situation. We have only been told one STORY.

Michael
 
GoTulane said:
Great posts KJ & GW. Always like to hear things from the cuemaker perspective.

And as always, there are 2 sides to any situation. We have only been told one STORY.

Michael
Click to expand...

I agree there are always 2 sides to every story...but regardless of the 2 stories, why would someone allow there name to get slapped around on here over 250 dollars?? I would think that someone rep is worth WAY more than that. Man up, send the guy a refund when he asked 6 months ago and move on. If you have 21 cues waiting, It obvious you have enough work to keep you busy...

Its just business. You every go to walmart and return something? They dont even want to know why. They enjoy your repeat business and therefor don't heckle customers when they want their money back. Its just a cost of doing business.
 
jay helfert said:
It is VERY difficult for me to accept the premise that a cue maker cannot and should not give an expected ETA to a prospective customer. Yes, there is an art to building a custom cue, that can take weeks and months to get just right. But as one who has observed the entire process from beginning to end by some noted builders, it isn't exactly rocket science either. These days with CNC and the other computer tricks of the trade they should know fairly well how long a cue will take from inception to completion. That is, if they follow through on their end, taking all the necessary steps to make it happen.

I think of the building industry when making a comparison with other trades. A contractor on a large project has to give the project owner a date of completion, and if unable to complete the project on schedule could face hefty deductions on their fees. I'm talking about building a large apartment complex from the ground up or an office building that soars fifty or more stories into the sky. Compared to building a single cue, this IS rocket science! And yet they better find a way to get it done on time or face big losses.

My feeling is this. If a cue maker cannot give an estimated time to build a cue, then he should just say so. At least the top builders today let their prospective customers know that it could be years down the road, before they can even begin making a cue for them. The last custom cue I had built for me was by Pete Tascarella. We talked on the phone a couple of times and got everything straight as to what I wanted in the cue regarding the specs etc. He gave me a price and told me to expect it in one year. He DID NOT ask for a deposit. One year later almost to the day, he called me and told my cue would be ready to ship the following week. I sent him the money and the cue was here about one week later. And it was exactly the cue I ordered from him.

I don't think Pete did anything extraordinary, except keep his word to me (and make me a great cue). That is how he does business. I've had similar experiences with Ernie at Ginacue, Tad, Josey and Southwest. I've also had other experiences with cue makers that did not go as well. Not in terms of money, but in terms of getting a timely delivery on what they promised me. These are cue makers who I chose not to do as much (or any) business with in the future.

Just one man's opinion as always.
Click to expand...


What he said......
 
Merlin, I'm glad Smokey made it right for you....

Business 101 - underpromise and overdeliver....simple premise - it's the only way to run a successful business and keep a happy customer base.....Jay, as usual, made a great post, X2 on what he said....

I'd say most people are fairly reasonable....if there is a family event or crisis, we are understanding and have no issues adjusting our timeline expectations.....but for some people, this is an art - we've all worked with this person....the first week, they have a sick child....the next week, it's their water heater.....the next week, they had an issue with the bank....the next week, their dog at the cue :grin:

Threatening to withhold a deposit.....that's sounds more like criminal activity to me.....tell the truth, and you'll never get your money back....definitely not smart, whether in business or in life....
 
IMO...Yes there are 2 sides but the lack of the other side is telling. A lack of communication can destroy any relationship.
 
food for thought

I just want to say one thing, and then I am done with this thread. Though I will still check it out, because free entertainment is always worth the price of admission.

Does Itrader mean anything anymore?

Michael
 
iTrader is a good tool to start with. If I were to order from a lesser-known cuesmith on here I would check that first. Second, I would search for the cuesmith's name and certain keywords, for example "issue", "problem", "dishonest", etc.

Then I would ask a few well-respected and veteran members (Jay Helfert, TATE, ShootingArts, etc.) of their opinion/suggestion.
 
TAP, TAP, TAP. I agree with Jay's post.

IMO, it's a simple issue of people skills / business accumen.

UNDER PROMISE AND OVER DELIVER.:yeah:

I am in the middle of a 'cue maker story' right now.:embarrassed2: As a customer and pool enthusiast, I don't give a $%&^ about any other issue. I want the cue I want and I am willing to pay for it.:wink2:

JUST DON"T YANK ME AROUND. Say what you will do and do what you say.:idea2:

FWIW.:grin-angelic:
 
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Here's a different perspective. In general, the deal was made & deposit given. The builder busts ETA & buyer wants refund. Builder agrees but doesn't get the refund out on the buyer's time. This has all been private from day one, a deal between 2 people. Buyer gets upset & decides to tar & feather the builder in town square, over $250. Not once, but twice he posted a thread to publicly humiliate the builder over a private deal.

Not pointing any fingers at who was right & who was wrong, if I were a prospective builder & seen this I wouldn't touch this buyer with a 10 foot pole. I wouldn't even direct him to Wheatie. The buyer may or may not have been absolutely right the entire time and the builder wrong. But that still doesn't justify the public humiliation. If I were a prospective builder & seen this, it would be red flags of risk & danger and i'd stay away from this buyer. I wouldn't need to know who is right or wrong. I would clearly see what happens if something goes wrong in the deal.

Even in our public court systems, if a defendent doesn't pay his court ordered fines or dues, then he does jail time & once punished doesn't owe a thing. But the OP expects the builder to be punished AND pay. What gives?

Anyway, I got no dog in this fight & couldn't care less. I just wanted to point out another perspective. I don't care one way or the other, nothing to do with me. But as much negative that can be said for cuemakers, there's equally bad that can be said for buyers. Most buyers are good people, cue nuts who just want a cue & understand they are dealing with a person, a human, and things can easily go other than planned. Deal with it as it goes & no big deal. But there are others who expect to be treated like royalty & are demanding, then feel righteous enough to rope up the builder & drag him through the streets for everybody to see that he did wrong when something goes awry in the deal. Some even do it for cheap.

Again, i'm not banging on the OP. I don't know the guy, won't pass judgment. I'm just putting out a different perspective that has been overlooked. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, just looking at the situation through a cuemaker's eyes. I'm sure Jim is feeling like he is being publicly humiliated & mob bashed over $250, and regretting ever agreeing to build a cue for the OP. As bad as the buyer feels over not getting his $250 back in a hurry, how is the cuemaker feeling about losing potentially tens of thousands of dollars in prospective sales? Again, nobody knows who's right or wrong in the deal, or even knows the circumstances behind the truth. But everybody is quick to judge & point fingers & give their opinion of what is right & wrong & how the builder should live his life & conduct his business, as well as pointing towards people should only deal with big shot builders because they don't do this kind of stuff. Well, big shot builders were broke newbies once & somebody had to give them the chance to stretch their legs & run with it, or else they wouldn't exist. I guess i'm saying that the judging can go both ways & neither way is right. The situation should never have been made public.
 
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