Just a general question for all the cue makers out there!!

poolhalljnkie

poolhalljnkie

House cue conversionist
Silver Member
Let me set the situation up........

A new cue maker buys a few Davis or Schmelke blanks, some pre made forearms (with and without handles) from someone like Prather, a handful of old Dufferin house cues to convert and he comes up with a few finished products. Some of his friends/league teammates/whoever wants to try them out whether they are given them or buy them.......Does said cue maker put his logo, signature, name, cue #, etc....... on the cue or with it being made from some pre made parts should he not?? Would these cues not be considered a product of the cue maker because he did in fact use an old dufferin or a pre made forearm already with points & veneers?? What would you consider a cue makers FIRST actual cue that he would catalog or notebook or begin a numbering system for his personal records??

Please dont get into a "cue maker" vs. "cue assembler" pissing contest here, Its just a simple question that I would like some of your opinions on. He's gonna do what he does, it was just a question that has piqued MY interest.

Also, I am by NO MEANS knocking anyone that does or has done this & I am NOT knocking anyones pre made product. One of the greatest cue makers ever used Titlist & others blanks, but I also know that he did not sign them either.....which is really the jest of this whole question I guess.

Thanks
 
poolhalljnkie said:
Let me set the situation up........

A new cue maker buys a few Davis or Schmelke blanks, some pre made forearms (with and without handles) from someone like Prather, a handful of old Dufferin house cues to convert and he comes up with a few finished products. Some of his friends/league teammates/whoever wants to try them out whether they are given them or buy them.......Does said cue maker put his logo, signature, name, cue #, etc....... on the cue or with it being made from some pre made parts should he not?? Would these cues not be considered a product of the cue maker because he did in fact use an old dufferin or a pre made forearm already with points & veneers?? What would you consider a cue makers FIRST actual cue that he would catalog or notebook or begin a numbering system for his personal records??

Please dont get into a "cue maker" vs. "cue assembler" pissing contest here, Its just a simple question that I would like some of your opinions on. He's gonna do what he does, it was just a question that has piqued MY interest.

Also, I am by NO MEANS knocking anyone that does or has done this & I am NOT knocking anyones pre made product. One of the greatest cue makers ever used Titlist & others blanks, but I also know that he did not sign them either.....which is really the jest of this whole question I guess.

Thanks
Click to expand...



The only opinion here that matters is your's, there is no right or wrong answer.

JIMO
 
For the 1st 2 years, that I made cues I did exactly that. I did not put my BLACK HEART LOGO on them, but they were refered to as BLAVK HEART CUES. I bought fronts from Jeff Prather & shafts from other cue makers & sold them as my creations. Reguardless of where the "WOOD" comes from, someone has to put them together in a way that they stay straight & play well. After I bettered my equipment & made my own forearms & cut my own points, I felt more satisfaction in the fact that this was ALL MY creation. You have to learn somewhere & I think as long as you don't put your logo on it, you can be proud of what you have made & sell it for the going rate...JER
 
Good answer

manwon said:
The only opinion here that matters is your's, there is no right or wrong answer.

JIMO
Click to expand...

Good answer.

On another note I did see one time a cue maker put "Davis by such and such" it was a tribute at the same time an ownership.
 
The great George Balabushka used blanks from other makers. No one ever says a Balabushka / szamboti blank, but then again was the stratavarius of cuemakers.
 
Bill Schick is a top ten hall of fame cuemaker and I have seen many Dufferin conversions he has made. Nearly all of them have a Schick logo on the bottom. I've not heard anyone give him shit over it.
 
I agree with mattb, its whatever you think. But since you've asked for input, I'll share what I've been thinking.

I am new to cue building as well and have given this topic a little thought. I started around March and the majority of what I've done so far is make square wood round and round wood smaller. Although I really want to get one done, I really want my first one to be done as well as I can. I hope to think as highly of my first as I do my 100th.

What I think is most important in a cue is the shaft and the joint. The handle is just a delivery system for the shaft. Yes its the majority of the work and the prettiest part of a cue but someone could make me one out of oak, weight & balance it then throw a wrap on and I'd be good (player perspective). The shaft, ferrule and tip are what matter to me.

I want to make and assemble all the parts in my cues myself (within reason). I only recently bought some butt blanks with most of the work done, because the price was reasonable and they were cheap enough to practice on. I bought some sneaky blanks several months ago and one recently. I also bought several beautiful cored forearms back in April.

On the nearly completed blanks I will probably use them for presents for friends. I will NOT put a logo on them. I may sign them but just in the way that friends have signed books they've given me. Who knows maybe I'll throw one or two on Craiglist or Ebay but its doubtful I will mark them in anyway.

On the Sneaky Blanks, yes I will mark them as mine. Almost all the work is in the joint and shaft. I may buy a shaper and start making my own but its not in my present plan. I'd only do it to make all the points pointy and not squared off... not sure if I want to put in that much R&D.

On the the cored forearms I bought? Yes, I will mark those cues as mine. Boring a hole and gluing in a dowel really isn't that hard. I could do it on my cuesmith but thats heavier work than I think should be done on that machine.

I guess you can get to a point where the cue is not really your creation but you'll have to decide where that is. There are guys on here that making EVERY part (even the metal components) and others that seem to build off the work of other people. If someone's specialty is making great point and inlay work they I can understand where they might not want to bother with making the handle blanks themselves. To each his own.

Just my novice opinion, for whatever that's worth
 
If the builder is proud of his work and feels an accomplishment in completing the cue, he has every right to sign it as his if he wants to. A sneaky blank is nothing more than two pieces of wood finger spliced together & rounded. If I buy a 30" piece of round wood and build a solid wood butt from it, is it my cue & can I sign it? What's the difference in a sneaky blank? Most folks, even lots of builders (especially newbs) have no clue as to how much work & time is involved in building a sneaky with dead even points, proper balance & proper weight. I'll get in to that in a moment. But first, I gotta say that I believe using sneaky blanks is FAR different than using pre-made spliced forearms. Mitering veneers & cutting points requires a skill that is recognized by buyers as a testament to the quality of work a builder can produce. Using a pre-made forearm & signing the cue as your own is by all means your decision, but it can be misleading to the buyers who will inevitably believe YOU created the points & veneer work.

Now for sneakies. We all know how simple a sneaky is. It's actually very easy & relatively quick to splice the woods. However, it takes machinery set up specifically for the task & that machinery takes up valuable space. It is also machines that can be used for other projects but if set up for splicing it kinda has to stay set up that way for repeatability & accuracy. That's why most builders buy blanks. It's not that they are incapable, but more so that it's not cost effective, unless buyers want to spend $1000+ on sneakies. Buying blanks allows the builder to keep shop equipment open for any task, while cutting end cost to the buyer. Case in point, if I build a sneaky from a blank I make, I have to set up my bandsaw & tune my splice jig literally by cutting pieces of wood until it's the right cut. It takes time & costs money to do that. Then I have to make the prong, which is actually easier but still requires a specific machine set up. I glue the pieces together & then begin cutting little by little over time, readjusting every cut to keep the points centered & even. You will pay for this time, skill, and money spent by me to create this blank. Or I could just buy a blank & save you several hundred dollars & months or years in waiting time. There's a lot of work & time involved in creating a class grade sneaky, and it could be very expensive if not for having places like Schmelke to supply blanks. Anybody ever ask Schick why he uses Dufferin house cues instead of making his own? It's certainly not because he isn't skilled enough to do so. Nobody will pay for what it's actually worth, or even really understand the difference anyway.
 
I think every cue that comes out of your shop can be signed or logo applied even though some work was done by someone else. The logo or signature lets them know this is the end result quality of what comes from your shop and the end result quality is what will either make or break you.
Think for a moment about whether having a helper in your shop is okay. If so, then what is the difference if someone is helping you from their shop. It is fairly common for people to trade work from shop to shop. There are some top known cuemakers that trade work back and forth. I heard of two top shops who traded inlay work for things like shaft work.
 
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Hi,

I don't think you should put your mark on someone else's work and here's why.

2 years ago I got a opportunity to purchased 24 Omega DPK Blanks at finished dimension built in 1993-94. The man I got them from inherited them from his father who died and I bought them at the estate sale.

I sold 10 as blanks unfinished to Omega lovers for their collections, gave away 5 to my friends and finished the rest with 2 shafts, leather wraps, weight bolt, rubber bumper detailing and my pin which is a 3/8 14 which matches the Omega Pin.

When I put them on Ebay I made a full disclosure of what they were and the circumstances involved. I also explained that by coincidence my partner Ray was the last cue maker to work at Omega in Wacanda Il. and that our shaft geometry was parabolic like Omega but Ray had plotted a slightly stiffer geometry on Auto Cad to create our taper bar so the shafts had a little more spine that Omega, which we felt was an improvement.

I said in the Ebay description that We would not put our mark on the cues but would issue a letter explaining the origin and where the cues were finished.

We sold 4 cues for over $1800.00 and many at $1500.00. The response from the cue world was very mixed and I even a had some people saying bad things even after I was going out of my way to tell the truth 100%.

In my view you can't win in this situation because there is always someone out there that wants to start shit and flame. When that stuff started happening, I stopped selling the cues on line and only sold them locally to people who know me and my work. My reputation is worth more to me that a sale to a stranger.

IMO, unless you are selling sneaky petes, John Davis Blanks, or other known blanks on the market I would never put my mark on it. The whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth but gave me some insight to the public and how they can react to minutia.

I did not put my mark on these cues described and got shit handed to me. If I would have put my mark on those cues who knows what kind of shit it would have started. Best to Build them yourself start to finish!!

Rick

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Its is my opinion you should not use prather blanks but instead focuse on plain janes and practicing on cutting points......If you have never built cues before or only a few it is likely your going to waste those prather blanks....its real easy to have run out at the a joint and not know how to fix it or even spot it.....you end up with points uneven and its a wasted cue. You will feel better about your cues if you make them from start to finish and that means rings too.....this is just my opinion....House cues are another story. Do those first and take your time and pay attention to detail
 
poolhalljnkie said:
Let me set the situation up........

A new cue maker buys a few Davis or Schmelke blanks, some pre made forearms (with and without handles) from someone like Prather, a handful of old Dufferin house cues to convert and he comes up with a few finished products. Some of his friends/league teammates/whoever wants to try them out whether they are given them or buy them.......Does said cue maker put his logo, signature, name, cue #, etc....... on the cue or with it being made from some pre made parts should he not?? Would these cues not be considered a product of the cue maker because he did in fact use an old dufferin or a pre made forearm already with points & veneers?? What would you consider a cue makers FIRST actual cue that he would catalog or notebook or begin a numbering system for his personal records??

Please dont get into a "cue maker" vs. "cue assembler" pissing contest here, Its just a simple question that I would like some of your opinions on. He's gonna do what he does, it was just a question that has piqued MY interest.

Also, I am by NO MEANS knocking anyone that does or has done this & I am NOT knocking anyones pre made product. One of the greatest cue makers ever used Titlist & others blanks, but I also know that he did not sign them either.....which is really the jest of this whole question I guess.

Thanks
Click to expand...
[/I]

I am sure the combination he puts out the door will be unique in some sort of way, whether it be length, balance , weight, taper, finish, wrap/no rap
etc.
I don't see any problem with him putting his name on it if he has done work to make it what it is.In this case he can either sign it or not, but the 1st cue he produced, right or wrong should be cue number 1.
It is a bit like a Hamburger, they all by the same sort of stuff, put their logo on the box, special source, different way of cooking the meat patty
and out it goes. Some places struggle to keep up with demand.


Now if he buys a finished handle from x and joins it to a finished shaft from y , with the only work being involved is check that it assembles,is another matter entirely in my opinion.This would be like buying Wendy's burger and a Burger king burger, take them apart, swap out the meat and salad and sell them as wendy king burgers. Not really cricket.
 
Thank you all for taking the time to offer your imput and opinions

A lot to think about & when I ever get my own house and some place to set up a shop I believe I know which way I will be going.
 
Every cue needs a signature or logo

Personally I think if you are selling a cue that you are standing behind, it needs your logo or signature. Even if every single part has been made somewhere else and assembled in your bedroom. My reasoning is this: if it cracks or comes unglued people are going to bring the cue back to you.
 
I think that as soon as you do any tapering or re tapering of a butt or shaft,
You can then call it yours.
Everyone already calls cut up house cues" conversions" right.
It takes special jigs or machines to do any sort of tapering of shafts and handles,
I don't see any problem with signing or putting logos on your work at all
 
poolhalljnkie said:
Let me set the situation up........

A new cue maker buys a few Davis or Schmelke blanks, some pre made forearms (with and without handles) from someone like Prather, a handful of old Dufferin house cues to convert and he comes up with a few finished products. Some of his friends/league teammates/whoever wants to try them out whether they are given them or buy them.......Does said cue maker put his logo, signature, name, cue #, etc....... on the cue or with it being made from some pre made parts should he not?? Would these cues not be considered a product of the cue maker because he did in fact use an old dufferin or a pre made forearm already with points & veneers?? What would you consider a cue makers FIRST actual cue that he would catalog or notebook or begin a numbering system for his personal records??

Please dont get into a "cue maker" vs. "cue assembler" pissing contest here, Its just a simple question that I would like some of your opinions on. He's gonna do what he does, it was just a question that has piqued MY interest.

Also, I am by NO MEANS knocking anyone that does or has done this & I am NOT knocking anyones pre made product. One of the greatest cue makers ever used Titlist & others blanks, but I also know that he did not sign them either.....which is really the jest of this whole question I guess.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I think you answered your own question in your signature. Your proud player is a conversion and named the first Thomas Cue.

I truly believe after the balance the joint up becomes the real player.

I am not guessing but saying as fact many of the sponsered pros have had others build the shafts used and even changed the way the sposered cue seen on TV is built.

The signature is simply a means of who finished making it a functional work of art and will more so take responsibility for the flaws rather than the greatness.

I think above all a lesson to be learned is from the late great Steve Mizerack. His cues were called the Mizerac Collection.

The Signature, logo etc is simply a way of branding.

The guys that do everything but plant the tree, chop it down etc get a premium price, deservingly so.

Me(?) many a time I waited till the very end of a trade show, went up to Prathers Booth and virtualy stole blank fronts for $20.00 - $25.00 per, I couldn't buy the wood for that.

A Hoppe blank? Love them loved them. The great premium cue makers take on the challange of leaving all or part of the Hoppee signature and or weight while straightening the points.

You can't build a hundred cues a year and expect to get 10K up for them. You can't build 20 cues a year for $350.00 and pay for your time, wood, electric.

The signature is mainly for someone else hitting with the cue saying I love the hit/I don't like the hit, who made it or what brand is it.

If your building because of all the Beautiful Girl Cue Groupies out there forget it, I'm the one they follow, if I change what I am doing the beautiful ones change groups, you get the ones that stay. :grin-square:
 
i do both

i use some schmelke, prather, titlist, and use almost exclusive old brunswick house cues to get my shaft wood. but i also build from scratch. i sign all cues that come out of my shop.
so like balabushka, i am considered a cue assembler.
i would really like to visit the builders shop that has a mine to dig his ore and watch him smelt the metal to make his pins, grow the corn to feed the pigs to get the leather to make his tips, visit the forest where he grows the trees to get his lumber, and watch him mix the chemicals for his finish and epoxys.
get my drift, we all are cue assemblers at some point, we all buy some materials to BUILD our cues.
 
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