Let's Bring The Discussion Of Pool Player As Job Over Here

[watchez]

Hello Cleary and JAM :wink:

Let me start by saying that I wish there were 150 people that could make a decent living out of playing pool professionally. Unfortunately there is not and may never be.

Just think, there are only 150 or so pro golfers on the PGA tour. Yes, they make astronimical amounts of money due to TV, endorsements and advertising but the rest of the golf world is on the outside looking in. I have a friend that plays on the Web.com tour. He has a minimum of $1500 a week in expenses, has to travel to Chile, Panama and all over the US to play. His best year he made about $70K in tournament winnings. He is probably one of the top 500 golfers in the US. That seems like a small amount in comparision to how much the golf market produces. Think about how big golf is compared to pool. My friend has to prove himself every year to qualify to play on the Web.com. Play in a tournament over 6 days to qualify to simply be on the Web.com tour. This year, he got 11th in the qualifying tournament. That means there are the 150 golfers that play in PGA events and he, at that time, was 11th best after that. All that got him entry into only the first 8 events of the year. He has to make two cuts or he won't be playing in many more events.

Now compare that to pool. What is a pro? I could be a pro pool player tomorrow. Just walk up and pay my entry fee. I'll go home loser for the weekend just like 95% of the field. Or what if I was once great and now just don't play anymore. Do I still get to call myself a pro player? Is Mike Sigel a pro pool player?

And then let's compare pool to a real job. Every day I have to listen to someone tell me what to do. I have to be somewhere at a certain time, for a certain length of time. My office is in the hood. Google the 63114 neighborhood. My company has been bought out 2 times in the past 5 years. Each time there is the threat that they will do away with my job. Last time, I lost a weeks paid vacation that I spent the 5 previous years earning due to my commmitment to this job. I spend $400 a month in gas getting to work. $100 a month on dry cleaning. $500-$1000 a year on clothes for work. I work Christmas eve. New Years eve. My birthday. I am salary. Some weeks I work 40 hours. Some weeks I work 60 hours. I work Saturdays. And then after all of that, I give over a 1/3 of my paycheck to taxes.

Ok, fire away.

 

[JAM]

I guess I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Are you saying your job is just as difficult as a pool player's, or are you saying your job is more difficult than a pool player, or are you saying a pool player's job is more difficult than yours?

 

[Black-Balled]

I guess I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Are you saying your job is just as difficult as a pool player's, or are you saying your job is more difficult than a pool player, or are you saying a pool player's job is more difficult than yours?

Or that pool- a game- shouldn't be expected to pay like a real job?

 

[watchez]

I am saying there are risks/benefits to a job just like there are if you choose to be a professional pool player. Unless you are a trust fund baby, life is not so easy so just deal with it. Don't sit there and think the world owes you something just because you can either draw your ball or if you are proficient with Excel.

 

[JAM]

I am saying there are risks/benefits to a job just like there are if you choose to be a professional pool player. Unless you are a trust fund baby, life is not so easy so just deal with it. Don't sit there and think the world owes you something just because you can either draw your ball or if you are proficient with Excel.

Of course, everybody knows that. Not sure what the purpose is of this thread, but I'll go along for the ride. You seem to enjoy my company when you create new threads as of late, so here I am. :grin-loving:

 

[punter]

I can see someone like Earl thinking when you play at the level he has that it's kind of sad he hasn't been able to do better financially. A lot of people say Earl hurt pool when he walked out of a Camel Event years back. I agree with you though that you got to play the cards you are dealt in life and live with the choices you make.

 

[JAM]

I don't see how anyone can compare being self-employed to an employee-type job. Pool players are self-employed. Employees get paid while they're getting a cup of coffee, going to the bathroom, talking on the phone, and holidays. Big difference!

The pool player, however, does not get paid if he does not win. A self-employed person does get paid if they work. This doesn't hold true, however, for the self-employed pool player. Therein lies the difference. :smile:

 

[Ken_4fun]

Ill start.

The deal with pool players verses golfers or engineers.

I would suggest you have to be in the top 10 to make a "living" at it.

Golfers maybe top 500.

Engineers maybe top 50,000.

In one of my former jobs, my boss's son played in the US Open, he finished dead last, but he played in the US Open (Golf). But his father supported him financially, and complained often.

The other deal was there were several people that "bought" into him that paid expenses etc. The thinking was if he ever made it big, they would get a percentage.

That couldnt happen in pool, because if he REALLY makes it big he is going to make $100K, verses the $10MM of a golfer.

Ken

 

[iba7467]

The problem is that most want to sleep until the afternoon, then play playstation for a couple hours, then maybe - just maybe - go to the poolroom and hope someone will donate gambling or stake them in a tough match.

Pro pool player could be a job if they "worked" 40 hours per week. A player could work at the room preparing the tables, working to recruit new players, or even being a referee during league. Many people would pay for cheap lessons or play $1 challenge games. Their are many local tournaments that they could win nearly every time. The room owners would let them play as long as they rotated the tournaments and didn't win the same tournament three weeks in a row.

The problem above is many pool players would be saying, "sounds like a lot of work for not a lot of money" but little money adds up to decent money if you do it enough. I have hired two pool players in jobs paying about $40,000 with decent benefits. One lasted two days and the other less than two months. The first time they go to a tournament over the weekend and win $1,000 they forget about all those weeks making $0.

I also see many unappreciative players. I had two guys tell me they would never play for less than 50%. This is an impossible proposition. If both players feel they can win and the game was actually fair then it should be 50/50 chance. So, I'll be like these idiots and say I'll flip coins if anyone wants to stake me. I'll only accept 50% and how dare you try to demean all the effort I put in flipping these coins.

 

[Ken_4fun]

I can see someone like Earl thinking when you play at the level he has that it's kind of sad he hasn't been able to do better financially. A lot of people say Earl hurt pool when he walked out of a Camel Event years back. I agree with you though that you got to play the cards you are dealt in life and live with the choices you make.

Earl had a $40K annual promotial contract with Cuetek for YEARS and I never heard him ever say anything good about them.

Earl has had MANY chances IMO.

But I disagree that he has to live with the choices he makes....ALL THE PLAYERS have had to live with the choices he has made.

JMO

Ken

 

[JAM]

The problem is that most want to sleep until the afternoon, then play playstation for a couple hours, then maybe - just maybe - go to the poolroom and hope someone will donate gambling or stake them in a tough match.

Pro pool player could be a job if they "worked" 40 hours per week. A player could work at the room preparing the tables, working to recruit new players, or even being a referee during league. Many people would pay for cheap lessons or play $1 challenge games. Their are many local tournaments that they could win nearly every time. The room owners would let them play as long as they rotated the tournaments and didn't win the same tournament three weeks in a row.

The problem above is many pool players would be saying, "sounds like a lot of work for not a lot of money" but little money adds up to decent money if you do it enough. I have hired two pool players in jobs paying about $40,000 with decent benefits. One lasted two days and the other less than two months. The first time they go to a tournament over the weekend and win $1,000 they forget about all those weeks making $0.

I also see many unappreciative players. I had two guys tell me they would never play for less than 50%. This is an impossible proposition. If both players feel they can win and the game was actually fair then it should be 50/50 chance. So, I'll be like these idiots and say I'll flip coins if anyone wants to stake me. I'll only accept 50% and how dare you try to demean all the effort I put in flipping these coins.

I am saddened to read your description of an American professional pool player. IMO, it is stereotyped. Not all pro players are like you describe, just like not all AzB-ers are trolls.

Pool is cruel to its own, especially here in the United States. If the American pool culture feels the way as described in the above-referenced post, pool will never have any hope to get its one tire out of the mud.

 

[matcase]

It is such a artful and skillful endeavor to excel at pool. I feel that it is very unfair that the rewards aren't there. Here is my view of reality though....a team owner, or the pga or whatever entity can pay huge sums to the top players because they get more in return than they put out. I have a saying " if they are willing to do it, it is a good deal for them" . There aren't any banks or insurance companies or food chains paying big money to advertise on tv during pool tournies -ie- it isn't a good deal for them. I wish it were though, because then there would be enough cash to make all involved flush

 

[watchez]

I don't see how anyone can compare being self-employed to an employee-type job. Pool players are self-employed. Employees get paid while they're getting a cup of coffee, going to the bathroom, talking on the phone, and holidays. Big difference!

The pool player, however, does not get paid if he does not win. A self-employed person does get paid if they work. This doesn't hold true, however, for the self-employed pool player. Therein lies the difference. :smile:

...you missed posting on pool forums while getting paid. :smile:

I used to own a GNC store. I didn't get paid unless I sold something. I just didn't show up to a nice business each day, expecting to make money. But it was a choice I made. I knew that going in. And if I got too successful, guess what -- they would open up another store close to me and take away 30-40% of my business. Now doesn't that seem counter productive?

 

[Cdryden]

Ill start.

The deal with pool players verses golfers or engineers.

I would suggest you have to be in the top 10 to make a "living" at it.

Golfers maybe top 500.

Engineers maybe top 50,000.

In one of my former jobs, my boss's son played in the US Open, he finished dead last, but he played in the US Open (Golf). But his father supported him financially, and complained often.

The other deal was there were several people that "bought" into him that paid expenses etc. The thinking was if he ever made it big, they would get a percentage.

That couldnt happen in pool, because if he REALLY makes it big he is going to make $100K, verses the $10MM of a golfer.

Ken

Interesting. I was thinking of this comparison earlier.

Professional pool will not suffer fools. If you are not extremely proficient you will not survive at the professional level. However, in the workings man world morons abound. I don't know how many times I have dealt with a person who holds a high level job and doesn't have the sense that God gave a mule. But, he survives, thrives even at times......hell, just look at our politicians for a perfect example of that.

 

[Ken_4fun]

I am saddened to read your description of an American professional pool player. IMO, it is stereotyped. Not all pro players are like you describe, just like not all AzB-ers are trolls.

Pool is cruel to its own, especially here in the United States. If the American pool culture feels the way as described in the above-referenced post, pool will never have any hope to get its one tire out of the mud.

Well the other side of the coin are these folks.

Ewa Maytaya Lawarence (TV you name it, she makes pool look good)
Archer, Varner, Hopkins and many others (tireless supporters)

Folks like Jay Halfert, Billy Incardona, JR Calvert, TAR guys, Ray (BigTruck).

Many others. Many others.

Ken

 

[CJ Wiley]

"Life is difficult"......and so it is.

I can see someone like Earl thinking when you play at the level he has that it's kind of sad he hasn't been able to do better financially. A lot of people say Earl hurt pool when he walked out of a Camel Event years back. I agree with you though that you got to play the cards you are dealt in life and live with the choices you make.

In the book 'The Road Less Traveled' the first sentence is: "Life is difficult"......and so it is.

We come into this world with nothing and we will all leave with nothing.....basically life if a "lease program" where we have to overcome our mind's illusions (about fear, money, joy, shame, grief, happiness, prosperity, etc) so we can live a "life worth living"

- an unexamined life is certainly not worth living.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[JAM]

...you missed posting on pool forums while getting paid. :smile:

No, I did not miss anything. I'm chief cook *and* bottle washer. As the chief cook, I get a salary, whether I work or not. As the bottle washer, I don't get paid unless I produce. It's a nice marriage.

I used to own a GNC store. I didn't get paid unless I sold something. I just didn't show up to a nice business each day, expecting to make money. But it was a choice I made. I knew that going in. And if I got too successful, guess what -- they would open up another store close to me and take away 30-40% of my business. Now doesn't that seem counter productive?

My nephew's other half used to work at a GNC store, got paid under the table. He had a draw, like a car salesman, and did make a commission.

 

[watchez]

In the book 'The Road Less Traveled' the first sentence is: "Life is difficult"......and so it is.

We come into this world with nothing and we will all leave with nothing.....basically life if a "lease program" where we have to overcome our mind's illusions (about fear, money, joy, shame, grief, happiness, prosperity, etc) so we can live a "life worth living"

- an unexamined life is certainly not worth living.

'The Game is the Teacher'

This is the first post in a month that you have made that I agree with.

 

[Jadssons]

I don't see how anyone can compare being self-employed to an employee-type job. Pool players are self-employed. Employees get paid while they're getting a cup of coffee, going to the bathroom, talking on the phone, and holidays. Big difference!

The pool player, however, does not get paid if he does not win. A self-employed person does get paid if they work. This doesn't hold true, however, for the self-employed pool player. Therein lies the difference. :smile:

If you choose to be a pool player, then you know what you are getting into. If someone doesn't like their job due to pay, hours, etc, then they should look for another job.

 

[JAM]

Well the other side of the coin are these folks.

Ewa Maytaya Lawarence (TV you name it, she makes pool look good)
Archer, Varner, Hopkins and many others (tireless supporters)

Folks like Jay Halfert, Billy Incardona, JR Calvert, TAR guys, Ray (BigTruck).

Many others. Many others.

Ken

I can't comment on some of what you wrote on the public forum, but if I ever meet you in person, I will explain to you a few things about how industry helps industry, and the Billiard Congress of America should change their name to the Billiard Pigs of America. They do nothing for professional pool, though they are supposed to be professional pool's representative to the WPA.