Low deflection rant

tho I'm not a proponent for aftermarket shafts that are mislabled.....

so whats wrong with exposing inconsistencies with your stroke for starters?


second if you want to learn the game know that these LD shafts are mislabled......they are not low deflection....they are low squirt....but as I and royce brunell have agreed upon the term low deflection is much more marketable than LOW SQUIRT.....


who gives a dam anyway....if a shaft shoots good it shoots good.....you give me a min to shoot with a predator and I'lll run out on you just fine with it, just the same as my solid maple shafts....and it probably wont even take a minute.

its overhyped in the aftermarket section imop as you can get the same characteristics without all the mumbo jumbo
 
iusedtoberich said:
Radial consistency is meaningless. Have you EVER seen a pro pay attention to shaft orientation when using regular shafts? Yet they all run out without any problems.
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Yes. Snooker Pros use the flat part at the butt end to orient their cue so that it is the same each time.

I purchased a Cog that had been Jimmy Reid's and it was marked just below the ferrule on each shaft so that it could be oriented each shot.

I was told that a lot of older players do this.

Radial consistency is not meaningless. I have had more than a few pros swear by low deflection radially consistent shafts.

The science behind the concept is clear. Whether or not the claims made by all the sellers of laminated shafts are true or not is another story and one that the average person cannot verify.

In another thread GetMeThere postulates that we need accuracy of .004" to make shots. Or something like that. So it should be obvious that any time the equipment produces a variable offset greater than that with different shaft orientations then in certain situations a shot which is otherwise "on" when aimed can missed.

Now you take someone like Efren and he uses the rails a lot with pocket speed. I sometimes think he hits the rails higher than it's even possible to do and make the shots and yet he still makes the shots. I am pretty sure he isn't using an LD or laminated shaft.

I think that he is just so dialed in that his stroke and speed make up for the inherent inconsistency in a one piece shaft. And of course all pieces of wood and how they are dried are not equal.

I have been to Predator's shop several times and they showed me how they test the shafts. Once someone can see it in action it's pretty clear that they are right. I have seen Bob Meucci's set up and as long as it's done fairly, i.e. no tweaking for certain cues then it seems like a fair test.

I still detest the way that Predator shafts feel. I can zip the cueball all around the table with one but I can't stand it. I like the Tiger X-Pro and the Fury Extreme shafts though because they feel like a shaft ought to in my opinion.

Like Mike though I put a lot more stock in radial consistency than I do in low deflection. If the deflection is constant then the player only needs to learn his shaft. While theoretically zero deflection would equal zero compensation when using sidespin I think that most players would opt for higher deflection as long as it's consistent to get a shaft with a better hit.
 
I played for probably 8 years or so with standard shafts. Probably around the time I became a B player, I finally gave Predator a try and stuck with it (I hated the dull feel every time I tried it previously. One time I tried it and it just felt good, and I never looked back). Here are some indisputable facts:

1) I play better with a Predator than I did with a regular shaft. No two ways about it...I missed less when using english, especially inside english.

2) I could have eventually learned how to do the same things with a regular shaft that I can do with my Predator shaft. But I figured why waste all the time? Why not just be able to do it, rather than spend years learning to do it?

3) All shafts "deflect" on off center hits. Also, all shafts produce cueball squirt on off center hits. How much my shaft "deflects" is totally unimportant to me. However, how much it squirts the cue ball off line is very important to me. If it squirts less then I have to compensate less. This makes ball pocketing percentages go up when using english. The more english I use, the bigger the net gain (for me).

I don't think that the research that went into developing these characteristics in shafts is "mumbo jumbo", nor do I think any science or proof is really necessary. The difference is extremely obvious to me, and that is all I need to be convinced that the Predator shaft (314-2 in my case) helps my game. I will say that the *feel* of the Predator or really *any* low deflection shaft is not as satisfying as a standard solid maple shaft, but I am willing to sacrifice that particular feel for a different feel that is not exactly "bad" and net a higher performance in the trade.

Hope any of this helps,

KMRUNOUT
 
TheVirus said:
If anything, by exposing flaws in stroke, they can get better at their stroke no?
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that doesn't really make sense. no matter how much better their strokes get their flaws will still be amplified because of the extremely small tips.


i don't wanna be 5 feet from the 9 in a hill hill game and have a flaw exposed right then and there.
 
AtLarge said:
The maximum tip diameter under WPA ("World-Standardized") equipment spec's is 14mm.
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Fair enough, but have you ever seen anyone at a tournament with a pair of capiliers to measure tips or a scale to weigh the cues?
 
I have tried LD shafts, I have found little to no difference when using them and as they do not 'feel right' I prefer using a traditional shaft. Feel is the most important factor in my mind. The bottom line is if it doesn't feel right and you can't get used to it pretty quickly it probably isn't right for you.

Thats why there are so many different types and makes of equipment out there, a particular shaft or cue maybe one mans saviour and another mans nightmare!
 
I do find it quite amazing how some very good pool pro's use the ''LD'' Shafts. I know they are getting paid to use the products etc but it still amazes me how there are hardly any pro's now a days (or atleast outnumber very highly) use regular maple shafts. I dabbled with an OB1 for about 5 weeks, playing 15 hours per week, and I did get used to it, but it just lacked that feel that my maple shafts gave me. I changed back and took me no longer than 2 hours to be back how I was shooting with the maple shaft.

Work on your stroke and other fundamentals, trust them, and play good!
 
cheapcues.com
Bigger is more forgiving.

poolplayer2093:
flaws will still be amplified because of the extremely small tips
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This is not true. Wider tips are not more forgiving. Smaller tips do not amplify errors.

Seems I have to repeat this every month or so...

pj
chgo
 
Monkey-Boy...FYI, Predator, OB, etc. does not pay pro players to use their shafts/cues. The payment is getting a free cue (for the HUGE majority of pros who use them). Product endorsements, for the most part, mean that the player is getting free equipment. You can count on one hand the number of American pro players getting actual endorsement money.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Monkey-Boy said:
I do find it quite amazing how some very good pool pro's use the ''LD'' Shafts. I know they are getting paid to use the products .Work on your stroke and other fundamentals, trust them, and play good!
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Sticking with it is the key....

Mowem down said:
alls I can tell ya is shortly after I started playing I bought a predator because it was the thing to have (and what they claimed made scence to me).. Thats all I played with for years.. I got my first custiom cue in 2005 promised myself (because I trusted the man that made the cue ) I would try his shafts ( I beleave he does make great shafts to this day ). I played ok ( not that I play much better than that anyway ) but was struggling. as soon as I put my predator on the butt it was night and day, period end of story. I dont need no machine no video.. Does the ball swerve and squirt ? of course, does what you say about getting used to it regardless of shaft hold water, yes it does. does what John Schmidt told me about the subject rap it for me, yes it does " whatever you play with stick with it and dont switch that was the mistake I made ".....
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At the highest levels, visualization and experience is the key, If you constantly change, then that will give you more experience for a variety of conditions but at the expense of having consistant experience, making it more difficult to have consistant accurate visualization of the shot.

The key is sticking with what you have the most experience with and are the most confident with.

If you are just starting out, then by all means get a LD shaft. Once I made the shift to LD (having been a methodological player for a long time, now switching back to feel and visualization) it was easier to use for thoughtful play, but if you are a feel player, please do yourself a favor and don't switch around too much.

Jaden
 
To the OP....

Low deflection shafts aren't better.....they simiply offer less deflection.....that's it.....they are a little different in hit and feel, and obviously deflect less....

Because they are low deflection, that means a player can compensate less for deflection.....so, for many a league player or player that gets little practice time, it makes it easier to aim.....because the deflection is, well, less......right now, I play with an LD shaft, but I am actually a purist and prefer a good old maple shaft.....but, I don't get to play as much as I'd like, and deflection is more predictable....I can still use English and manipulate the cue ball and worry less about compensating/missing....

Since you brought up golf, please allow this comparison...

There is nothing like the feel of a well struck shot with a forged blade.....nothing.....when I'm on, I can hit that sweet spot and the ball goes EXACTLY where I want it to.....I low running hook, I big high cut.....I can work the ball like crazy and the feel of a pure shot is amazing....

Cavity backs, blah.....while they have really improved manufacturing over the years and the gap is much less, IMHO, the feel is not like that of a forged blade.....also, they have a tendency to force the same ball flight and are not as easy to work.....but, the cavity back allows the weekend golfer that has no practice time to hit a bigger sweet spot and enjoy a better scoring, more consistent game of golf....

IMHO, LD shafts are like cavity backs.......and maple shafts are like blades.....both have their advantages.....

I love my OB shaft, but I would never put it on a Balabushka :grin:
 
cheapcues.com said:
Just because shaft is lower deflection does not mean it's the best!
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You are correct; although, some people can play better with low-squirt (AKA low cue-ball deflection, or LD) shafts. There are numerous advantages and disadvantages of LD shafts for different people. FYI, many of them are listed along with supporting rsources here:


cheapcues.com said:
First of all, all these companies claim that their products are the lowest deflection but I've yet to see difinitive evidence, and obvioulsy only one of them can be right. Meucci's video is a JOKE (I can explain why if you wish). I've seen data and graphs from Predator which may be true but until I see results from an independent testing lab there's no way to say who has the lowest deflection.
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FYI, some data can be found here:

The data from Platinum Billiards (Predator) is a little suspect, but it is the only large set of data out there.

FYI, if you want to compare cues, it is very easy to test them yourself. You don't need a robot. See the procedure here:

cheapcues.com said:
Even if a shaft has the least amount of cue ball deflection, you still have to account for it in the shot.
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Exactly. There are techniques (e.g., BHE and FHE) to account for squirt and swerve to some extents, but swerve varies with distance, speed, cue elevation, amount and type of English, and ball and cloth conditions. Also, throw varies with angle, speed, Engligh amount and type, and ball conditions.

cheapcues.com said:
I'm a big fan of both Predator / Lucasi Hybrid and OB shafts, but it is due the the FEEL
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This is a very subjective and personal thing. For more info, see:

cheapcues.com said:
About half the people I talk to about LD shafts in my shop don't understand what it means anyway. They think it's referring to the deflection of the CUE, not the cue BALL. I am constantly explaining that little tid bit.
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That's why others and I prefer the term "squirt." For more info, see:

cheapcues.com said:
Lastly, smaller is not better! If your shaft has a smaller tip you may reduce deflection, but you will expose inconsistencies in your stroke and impact point on the CB.
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... not true; although, the shape of the tip can have an effect. For more info, see:

Regards,
Dave
 
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I bought a predator z-2 like 6 months ago. I immediately liked it, it shoots really nice and can put a ton of draw on it where with my maple shaft only back it up a bit. It is just like blades vs. cavity backs. You can do more with a predator shaft I think, but I do believe with the 11.75 tip you do lose some consistency. I know some people claim it doesn't matter because the contact point. All I know is when my stroke doesn't feel good i take the predator off and put my normal shaft on.
 
harmy76 said:
... predator z-2 ... can put a ton of draw on it
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People often claim that the shaft is responsible for draw (or English), but the shaft is usually not the root cause. For more info, see:

Regards,
Dave

PS: If you can execute a good and consistent draw shot, it is because you have a good stroke (per draw shot technique) and are achieving a low tip contact point on the CB. It ain't the shaft. Give yourself some credit.
 
I'm still interested in any illuminating comments (especially from the OP, who promised them on request) about any weak points of the Meucci demonstration video.

Certainly, I tend to agree that his FINDINGS are suspect. I'm most interested in criticisms of his methods.
 
GetMeThere said:
I'm still interested in any illuminating comments (especially from the OP, who promised them on request) about any weak points of the Meucci demonstration video.

Certainly, I tend to agree that his FINDINGS are suspect. I'm most interested in criticisms of his methods.
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The biggest problems are:
- The cue isn't level, so swerve is a factor, and swerve is affected by ball and cloth conditions, which can change over time. Also, cues producing different CB speeds (due to weight and/or tip efficiency differences), will create different amounts of swerve, which will affect results.
- The CB hits an OB, so throw is a factor, and throw varies with ball conditions and speed. Therefore the cue weight and tip efficiency, which affect speed, and randomness of ball-to-ball contact point properties and cleanliness can affect the results.
- The shape of the tip has an effect. A rounder tip will create more tip offset (at the tip contact point) which affects the amount of English, which affects the amount of squirt, swerve, and throw. This problem is easy to avoid by shaping each tip with a consistent tool before testing, but I'm not sure this was done.

There are way too many variables in the Meucci experiment. The goal is to measure squirt (CB deflection) produced by different shafts for a given tip offset, but that's not exactly what is being measured.

Regards,
Dave
 
Big Perm said:
To the OP....

Low deflection shafts aren't better.....they simiply offer less deflection.....that's it.....they are a little different in hit and feel, and obviously deflect less....

Because they are low deflection, that means a player can compensate less for deflection.....so, for many a league player or player that gets little practice time, it makes it easier to aim.....because the deflection is, well, less......right now, I play with an LD shaft, but I am actually a purist and prefer a good old maple shaft.....but, I don't get to play as much as I'd like, and deflection is more predictable....I can still use English and manipulate the cue ball and worry less about compensating/missing....

Since you brought up golf, please allow this comparison...

There is nothing like the feel of a well struck shot with a forged blade.....nothing.....when I'm on, I can hit that sweet spot and the ball goes EXACTLY where I want it to.....I low running hook, I big high cut.....I can work the ball like crazy and the feel of a pure shot is amazing....

Cavity backs, blah.....while they have really improved manufacturing over the years and the gap is much less, IMHO, the feel is not like that of a forged blade.....also, they have a tendency to force the same ball flight and are not as easy to work.....but, the cavity back allows the weekend golfer that has no practice time to hit a bigger sweet spot and enjoy a better scoring, more consistent game of golf....

IMHO, LD shafts are like cavity backs.......and maple shafts are like blades.....both have their advantages.....

I love my OB shaft, but I would never put it on a Balabushka :grin:
Click to expand...

Perm

This is a top shelf post.well explained and straight to the point.
well done!

bill
 
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