Message From the WPA North American Representative

Jerry Forsyth

Well-known member
AZB is posting this for Fran Crimi. Fran is on the WPA Executive Board and serves there as the North American Representative. She also serves on the BCA/WPA committee.

"Hi all. I know there are things that make you angry about the BCA and the WPA, like Thomas Overbeck's comments about the title of World Champion. I don't think I would have made the comments Thomas did, but I understand how he feels. Before the WPA came along, it's true that anyone could hold an event and call it a World Championship. The PPPA comes to my mind back in the late 70's and early 80's. I know this first hand because I was the WPBA President for some of that time and I worked with the PPPA and the organizers.

Here's how they invited players: They made sure that all the American players who wanted to play were in the event, and after those spots were secured, they invited any foreign players to fill the spots that were left over. Oh, and of course they did extend a few invitations directly to a few foreign players. That's the way world championships worked back then. They were held in the U.S., they were run by Americans, the majority of the players were Americans and they were mostly won by Americans. Most of the time, people on other continents didn't even know the events were taking place.

Enter: the WPA. Love 'em or hate 'em, they amazingly organized pool on a global level. They followed the Olympic footprint and organized events based on continental quotas. This made a lot of Americans angry because: 1) The majority of players in the events were no longer American and 2) The events were mostly held on other continents.

So why is it that the Americans got 14 spots for this year's 10-Ball World Championship and Europe got 40' Europe has 32 countries fighting for spots. Every time they have a tour event, 250 people show up. Our 14 spots may not sound like a lot but we went down 39 spots in the rankings before we filled those spots. So basically, if you get yourself in the top 40 of the U.S. rankings and you hold a U.S. passport, you have a decent shot at getting an invite to a World Championship and in this particular event, a crack at a $400,000 prize fund.

A few months ago we (here in the U.S.) polled the players and asked how they'd feel if we invited the top ranked foreign player who lives here and can't qualify through any other means. 90 Percent of the players said, absolutely --- invite him. That means that one U.S. passport holder would have to give up his seat for a foreign player. I ask you, how can you not invite a player like Mika Immonen, who's ranked in 3rd, yet can't qualify because of a technicality? So this year, Mika got an invite to the World 10-Ball Championships a la U.S.A. because his fellow players said so.

So when someone holds an event and decides to call it a world championship, I can imagine that it brings back nightmarish memories for people like Thomas Overbeck. As for me, well, now that I know more about how things work, as soon as I hear 'World Championship' by an independent party, I ask myself, okay, what's the gimmick? More often than not, it's there.

Lastly, to address the issue about the U.S. players not being cared about or looked after: That couldn't be farther from the truth. We have a team working for the players of North America seven days a week, day and night. We are here for them. First, there's Ivan Lee of the BCA. You will not find a more concerned and caring person about the players. He rolls up his sleeves and gets involved and stays up nights just like the rest of us when faced with issues that need to be addressed. There are Ed Smith and myself, who don't know the difference between weekdays and weekends. There's Jerry Forsyth and Mike Howerton who tirelessly get the word out to the players like never before. We now have a back and forth system of communication with the players as good as anyone can imagine. Ask Johnny Archer or Shane Van Boening. We have helped players with even the smallest details, like transportation to and from the venue overseas. We make sure the promoters know when they are arriving at the airport. We make sure their hotel rooms have been properly reserved and that they have the size room they requested. We listen to their complaints, and we stand up for the rights of the North American players in the WPA and on the world platform.

As for the big bad WPA, well you have no idea how hard everyone works. President Ian Anderson is truly an excellent president and a great diplomat. We are lucky to have him. He is breaking new ground on a global level that is bringing exiting growth to our sport at a time when things seemed to have slowed down to a crawl here in the U.S. I'm watching Ian and feeling something about our sport that I haven't felt in a very long time: EXCITEMENT.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I wish everyone great pool playing."

Fran Crimi
 
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I think Fran brings up a lot of very good points. They are well thought out and she said them in a way that doesn't attack the other side and I can appreciate that. Although, I can understand the other side of the issue as well.

Holding a World Championship and only giving the left over spots to the other 95% of the world doesn't seem right to me.
 
my read

Fran said it a lot more politely but she still said that pool and world champions didn't exist before the WPA. I'm in the group that disagrees wiht that belief.

HU-
 
Thank you Fran for working to make the pool world a better place to live and play in. I believe you have the integrity to improve conditions.

As I said in another thread... It just doesn't matter whic organization calls their tournament a World Championship. It's another tournament that has marketing people reaching out to try to convince people that they and only they are the real deal. Some people will buy it but those who have been around will know the truth.

Have a tournament.. Have several tournaments and call it what you want. Credibility will be achieved over time and if the tournaments include the best of the best.
 
Another point

is how many of the players in those 32 European countries are world class players? You have many little countries that the players are not world class caliber, while you leave out world class caliber players here in the USA.

And why not expand it to 64 players?
 
No World Champion crowned prior to the WPA, or outside of the WPA is a "WPA World Champion".

That's the only take I get from all this crap that makes any sense to me without carrying pompous overtones.
 
The player thing...

Snapshot, WPA World Championships are 128-player fields. The reason that the little countries with players who are not as good as Americans who are left out get spots is because that is their right. They have the right to representation. Just as in the Olympics where countries have the right to submit basketball teams made up of 5 four-footers who can't make a ball.

And the WPA Worlds are not true 'invitationals'. Each participating member body uses their rankings from the past year (or some period of time) to decide who gets invited to be on the roster. So players who excel get invited and those who fail do not. It is really a very fair system that allows those who have shown themselves to be consistently excellent an opportunity to compete for a world title.

To make the Worlds a truly 'open' event would not be possible. There would be no way to schedule it ahead of time and no way to handle the potentially large numbers of players who would show up. You could wind up with 2,000 cueists wanting to compete and you would need a month to run the tournament. This would require millions in sponsorship and that money simply is not available. Plus, you would have ball-bangers showing up just so they could say they played in a worlds. The current system has problems, but they are being solved, and it is the best way to determine a true world champion. The WPA, despite all the complaints lodged against it, really does work very hard to bring the game to a global stage. In the last four years alone they have expanded the world titles from just 9-Ball to include 8-Ball, Ten Ball, and Straight Pool and these are joined by the pre-existing World Juniors and the Wheelchair Worlds.

So while the WPA is not perfect (and they make no claims to be), they do work very hard to improve the game we all love and its status on the world sports scene.
 
a few issues

Jerry,

Perhaps I am mistaken and you are having a world championship for countries. If it is a world championship for individuals then the top 128 players in the world should be there regardless of the countries represented or not represented. How many countries are there in the world? Seems to me like far more than 128 so your field leaves out many countries anyway. Ultimately your format isn't fair to countries or individuals and as you have explained it the WPA certainly is not using the best method to determine the best individual in the world with it's artificial quota system.

This indicates to me that anyone offering a "World Championship" that was truly open to the best individuals regardless of if their country or regions quota had been met would have a more valid claim to have determined an individual world champion.

Hu


Jerry Forsyth said:
Snapshot, WPA World Championships are 128-player fields. The reason that the little countries with players who are not as good as Americans who are left out get spots is because that is their right. They have the right to representation. Just as in the Olympics where countries have the right to submit basketball teams made up of 5 four-footers who can't make a ball.

And the WPA Worlds are not true 'invitationals'. Each participating member body uses their rankings from the past year (or some period of time) to decide who gets invited to be on the roster. So players who excel get invited and those who fail do not. It is really a very fair system that allows those who have shown themselves to be consistently excellent an opportunity to compete for a world title.

To make the Worlds a truly 'open' event would not be possible. There would be no way to schedule it ahead of time and no way to handle the potentially large numbers of players who would show up. You could wind up with 2,000 cueists wanting to compete and you would need a month to run the tournament. This would require millions in sponsorship and that money simply is not available. Plus, you would have ball-bangers showing up just so they could say they played in a worlds. The current system has problems, but they are being solved, and it is the best way to determine a true world champion. The WPA, despite all the complaints lodged against it, really does work very hard to bring the game to a global stage. In the last four years alone they have expanded the world titles from just 9-Ball to include 8-Ball, Ten Ball, and Straight Pool and these are joined by the pre-existing World Juniors and the Wheelchair Worlds.

So while the WPA is not perfect (and they make no claims to be), they do work very hard to improve the game we all love and its status on the world sports scene.
 
Jerry

I have supported the WPA in the past and I have lived to regret it.

The BCA/WPA have never provided any type of assistance or leadership to the US players in the following situations:

PBT
Camel Tour
Don Mackey
UPA Sanctioning/payment situations
IPT payment situation

In all of those instances the leadership of those organizations turned their back and did absolutely nothing for any of the players. They didn't drop the ball, they refused to touch the ball.

Now if anybody from the WPA wants to debate me on that, I can provide verbatim quotes as to how the WPA/WCBA leadership views pool in North America - none of those quotes are very flattering. Leadership is not a part time job.

If they consider themselves the leadership of the sport on a global level than they should make their presence know in North America. 99% of all players that I have spoken to had no idea who was on the Board of Directors for the WPA or who the North American representatives are.

Why is that?

It's because they couldn't care less about what is going on here.

The players could care less about them as well. I think its swell that the BCA helps out the players to get to the WPA events. I have read their financial statements and I know where the largest chunk of their expenses go - so that is a drop in the bucket, and probably all that they are willing to do at this point in time.

In this situation, I side with Grady's point of view 100%.

Don't be surprised when someone starts a new organization that is separate from the BCA, but more effectively involved with the needs of the players. An organization that recognizes the accomplishments of the greatest players, sets up a kick ass Hall of Fame that will include guys like Jay Swanson, Louie Roberts, Tony Ellin, Grady Mathews, Scotty Townsend, Dave Matlock, Johnny Archer, Jose Parica, and of course Paul Newman and Jackie Gleason.

Any organization that claims to be the "governing body" needs to be run by people that work their asses off 24/7/365 promoting our game and tapping into the mainstream. The organizations that are in existence today are not doing that - and personally - I'm tired of waiting around for them to start.

I wish them all of the luck in the world with the IOC, but right now the players need to make money to pay their bills - they need financial security - they need to be respected as human beings, and they need to be respected for their accomplishments - in much the same way Kevin Trudeau did for the Hall of Fame members during the IPT.

If Overbeck and the WPA doesn't want to recognize champions such as Steve Mizerak, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Luther Lassiter, Cisero Murphy, Jimmy Reid, etc... then I have no problem turning my back on them and organizing a team that will do everything that the BCA and the WPA should have been doing for the past 25 years.

The people and the resources exist today to build something bigger and better that will provide for the players and the entire industry. Obviously that is the direction we should be moving - not sitting around for the WPA to get their nose out of the air long enough to recognize our existence.
 
Snapshot9 said:
is how many of the players in those 32 European countries are world class players? You have many little countries that the players are not world class caliber, while you leave out world class caliber players here in the USA.

And why not expand it to 64 players?
As mentioned, the first round of the WPC 9B is already 128.

But beyond that, if there happened to be some player, say from the back woods of Idaho, who had been practicing on his home table and hadn't missed a ball in four years but had never entered a tournament, if he could get himself to the venue with $100 in hand, he could enter a qualifier just before the event and win the whole thing. I think it's unreasonable to ask for a more open format than that. There is probably no US player who is not already entered (or offered entry) who has any chance of winning the event.

As for how many Europeans play at world-class level, I think it's far higher than most US players realize. I've heard that perhaps 10 had run over 300. And how long has Tony Drago been feared or even known in the US? I remember the 1975 US Open 14.1 in which the lone European entry finished dead last in a field of 32. He was not familiar with safety play, being an eight ball player. Things are different now.
 
???

Ok...I think I'm missing something here. I'm weak when it comes to pool organizations, so help me out.

So guys like sigel, hopkins, hall, miz and others are voted into the BCA Hall of Fame for winning the world championships the WPA isn't recognizing?

Aren't the BCA and WPA affiliated in some way? Looks like the ass isn't wired to the head to me.

Show me any foreign players at the time fading sigel, hop, hall and miz in their prime? The result was determined no matter who played...IMO

spider
 
Jerry Forsyth said:
AZB is posting this for Fran Crimi. Fran is on the WPA Executive Board and serves there as the North American Representative. She also serves on the BCA/WPA committee.

"Hi all. I know there are things that make you angry about the BCA and the WPA, like Thomas Overbeck's comments about the title of World Champion. I don't think I would have made the comments Thomas did, but I understand how he feels. Before the WPA came along, it's true that anyone could hold an event and call it a World Championship. The PPPA comes to my mind back in the late 70's and early 80's. I know this first hand because I was the WPBA President for some of that time and I worked with the PPPA and the organizers.

Here's how they invited players: They made sure that all the American players who wanted to play were in the event, and after those spots were secured, they invited any foreign players to fill the spots that were left over. Oh, and of course they did extend a few invitations directly to a few foreign players. That's the way world championships worked back then. They were held in the U.S., they were run by Americans, the majority of the players were Americans and they were mostly won by Americans. Most of the time, people on other continents didn't even know the events were taking place.

Enter: the WPA. Love 'em or hate 'em, they amazingly organized pool on a global level. They followed the Olympic footprint and organized events based on continental quotas. This made a lot of Americans angry because: 1) The majority of players in the events were no longer American and 2) The events were mostly held on other continents.

So why is it that the Americans got 14 spots for this year's 10-Ball World Championship and Europe got 40' Europe has 32 countries fighting for spots. Every time they have a tour event, 250 people show up. Our 14 spots may not sound like a lot but we went down 39 spots in the rankings before we filled those spots. So basically, if you get yourself in the top 40 of the U.S. rankings and you hold a U.S. passport, you have a decent shot at getting an invite to a World Championship and in this particular event, a crack at a $400,000 prize fund.

A few months ago we (here in the U.S.) polled the players and asked how they'd feel if we invited the top ranked foreign player who lives here and can't qualify through any other means. 90 Percent of the players said, absolutely --- invite him. That means that one U.S. passport holder would have to give up his seat for a foreign player. I ask you, how can you not invite a player like Mika Immonen, who's ranked in 3rd, yet can't qualify because of a technicality? So this year, Mika got an invite to the World 10-Ball Championships a la U.S.A. because his fellow players said so.

So when someone holds an event and decides to call it a world championship, I can imagine that it brings back nightmarish memories for people like Thomas Overbeck. As for me, well, now that I know more about how things work, as soon as I hear 'World Championship' by an independent party, I ask myself, okay, what's the gimmick? More often than not, it's there.

Lastly, to address the issue about the U.S. players not being cared about or looked after: That couldn't be farther from the truth. We have a team working for the players of North America seven days a week, day and night. We are here for them. First, there's Ivan Lee of the BCA. You will not find a more concerned and caring person about the players. He rolls up his sleeves and gets involved and stays up nights just like the rest of us when faced with issues that need to be addressed. There are Ed Smith and myself, who don't know the difference between weekdays and weekends. There's Jerry Forsyth and Mike Howerton who tirelessly get the word out to the players like never before. We now have a back and forth system of communication with the players as good as anyone can imagine. Ask Johnny Archer or Shane Van Boening. We have helped players with even the smallest details, like transportation to and from the venue overseas. We make sure the promoters know when they are arriving at the airport. We make sure their hotel rooms have been properly reserved and that they have the size room they requested. We listen to their complaints, and we stand up for the rights of the North American players in the WPA and on the world platform.

As for the big bad WPA, well you have no idea how hard everyone works. President Ian Anderson is truly an excellent president and a great diplomat. We are lucky to have him. He is breaking new ground on a global level that is bringing exiting growth to our sport at a time when things seemed to have slowed down to a crawl here in the U.S. I'm watching Ian and feeling something about our sport that I haven't felt in a very long time: EXCITEMENT.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I wish everyone great pool playing."

Fran Crimi

Thanks for posting this Jerry, and a sincere thanks to Fran Crimi for her comments. I want to add one thing to her statements regarding the PPPA events back in the 70's and 80's and some other "World Championships" held in that time frame. I was there too for many of these events and all the best players were there. It just so happened at the time, they were Americans. If a foreign player wanted to join, they could (and did) get a spot in the field.

The facts are that in the 70's and 80's the best players, particularly at Straight Pool were Americans. The European players didn't really begin to develop until the early 90's, after Oliver Ortmann won the U.S. Open 14.1 in 1989 in Chicago. Some very good players came over here to play in the early 90's, but not until Ralf Souquet could they win a major championship again on our shores.

As for the filipinos, Efren indeed gave us a huge wake up call in 1985 in Houston at Red's. It wasn't a "World Championship" but it sure could have been, with over 100 of the best all gathered together. My last point is that even if Efren and anyone else for that matter wanted to enter a 14.1 "World Championship" in the 70's and 80's, they wouldn't have had a prayer against the likes of Mizerak, Sigel, Rempe, Hopkins, Varner, Diliberto, et al. If anyone thinks the reason these guys won everything back then is because foreign players were excluded, they're dreaming or living in a fantasy world!

P.S. Parica did play twice in the PPPA World Championships in the early 80's, before Efren came over here. He was in his prime then and I think his high finish was 12th.
 
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ShootingArts said:
Jerry,

Perhaps I am mistaken and you are having a world championship for countries. If it is a world championship for individuals then the top 128 players in the world should be there regardless of the countries represented or not represented. ...
A legitimate goal of any world championship is to ensure that people from all regions have a chance of participating. This is especially true if you have a world governing body that has as members national federations or regional confederations.

There is no accurate world ranking system for pool. There are few international events that attract a diverse field, so you can't compare, for example, Alain Martel and Ying-Zue Bao.

In carom the situation is a little different, and there is a ranking system that includes WorldCup, World Championship, Confederational Championship and National Championship performances in the rating mix. The way that invitations to the WC 3-C work is (roughly) the top 20 ranked players are invited, 20 of the remaining top players are selected by the Confederations in proportion to the activity in each region, and four wild cards are reserved for the Federation and Confederation that organize the championships and one for the world governing body (the UMB). This gives a field of 48 which is plenty to decide the best player in the world.

I think that the current WPA format provides plenty of opportunity to participate to everyone. In the past, the US has had a lot of trouble filling its quota of players. I think that's changing as the BCA now seems to be providing more support for US player participation. I think the BCA should at least provide airfare, hotel and food for the 14 nominated players. I'm not sure what is provided. By way of comparison, the the US Billiard (3-cushion) Association manages to sponsor four trips to World Championship events for the top US 3-C players (travel and lodging) with perhaps 1% of the resources of the BCA.
 
One last question about Fran's comments. I appreciate what she says the BCA is doing on behalf of American players. One small thing she didn't mention, but I'm curious about, is does the BCA give any American representatives to foreign championships like the WPC, any financial support? She and I both know the BCA coiffures are very flush. My question is what is the BCA doing to help American players with their expenses to travel overseas and play?
 
Someone help answer my post 13 in this thread. It sounds like the BCA and WPA are affiliated in some way.

How does the BCA vote guys like Sigel, Hopkins, Varner, Hall, etc, into the hall of fame for winning the world championships the WPA doesn't recognize?

????????????????????
 
not US-centric

Bob,

I am not US-centric when it comes to a world championship. I truly mean the best 128 players in the world. How many can the Philippines send that have a legitimate chance of winning? How many is a fair number to send from that tiny country according to the quota? If it is determined by region, who is left behind in Asia or the Pacific rim to allow extra Filipinos to play?

Gathering people from all regions far from determining the best individual insures that some that should be there are left behind so that there can be "token" representation that doesn't have any realistic chance of winning.

You are talking support for chosen players, but equally gifted players are left behind because of the quota system and must travel on their own dime and then try to qualify from what I gather.

Bottom line is that if anyone is trying to determine an individual world champion then the best individuals in the world, from anywhere in the world, must be allowed to compete on their own merit. When that doesn't happen the "World Championship" has a hollow ring to it.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Mine is that if anyone were to find a sponsor and hold a well paying "World Championship" that was based on merit and all players competing on an equal footing not where the player was from then this person or organization would have a more legitimate claim to have determined a world champion than the contrived manner the WPA seems to be using.

Hu



Bob Jewett said:
A legitimate goal of any world championship is to ensure that people from all regions have a chance of participating. This is especially true if you have a world governing body that has as members national federations or regional confederations.

There is no accurate world ranking system for pool. There are few international events that attract a diverse field, so you can't compare, for example, Alain Martel and Ying-Zue Bao.

In carom the situation is a little different, and there is a ranking system that includes WorldCup, World Championship, Confederational Championship and National Championship performances in the rating mix. The way that invitations to the WC 3-C work is (roughly) the top 20 ranked players are invited, 20 of the remaining top players are selected by the Confederations in proportion to the activity in each region, and four wild cards are reserved for the Federation and Confederation that organize the championships and one for the world governing body (the UMB). This gives a field of 48 which is plenty to decide the best player in the world.

I think that the current WPA format provides plenty of opportunity to participate to everyone. In the past, the US has had a lot of trouble filling its quota of players. I think that's changing as the BCA now seems to be providing more support for US player participation. I think the BCA should at least provide airfare, hotel and food for the 14 nominated players. I'm not sure what is provided. By way of comparison, the the US Billiard (3-cushion) Association manages to sponsor four trips to World Championship events for the top US 3-C players (travel and lodging) with perhaps 1% of the resources of the BCA.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Someone help answer my post 13 in this thread. It sounds like the BCA and WPA are affiliated in some way.

How does the BCA vote guys like Sigel, Hopkins, Varner, Hall, etc, into the hall of fame for winning the world championships the WPA doesn't recognize?

????????????????????
When was the BCA Hall of Fame created? When was the WPA created? Do you feel a world governing body is required for a legitimate world championship to be held? Now that a world governing body for pool exists (assuming that you agree that one does exist), should it sanction world pool championships? Would you support a return of the WPC 9B to the US? Did you know that the WPA WPC 9B has been held in the US? What are the chances that a move to the US could get 60 hours of the WPC live on local television which has been the case for the WPC since about 1998? Do you know who belongs to the WPA? Has the US become irrelevant to international pool? Does the WPA have any responsibility for the pool scene in the US, or is that the responsibility of the US national governing body? What is the US NGB?

Hope this Freds.
 
Bob Jewett said:
When was the BCA Hall of Fame created? When was the WPA created? Do you feel a world governing body is required for a legitimate world championship to be held? Now that a world governing body for pool exists (assuming that you agree that one does exist), should it sanction world pool championships? Would you support a return of the WPC 9B to the US? Did you know that the WPA WPC 9B has been held in the US? What are the chances that a move to the US could get 60 hours of the WPC live on local television which has been the case for the WPC since about 1998? Do you know who belongs to the WPA? Has the US become irrelevant to international pool? Does the WPA have any responsibility for the pool scene in the US, or is that the responsibility of the US national governing body? What is the US NGB?

Hope this Freds.

I think the WPA should sanction past world events prior to its existence... automatically and take a 'this day forward approach.'

These people sound like dicks to me. Get Hopkins, Varner, Hall, Earl, Sigel into a room with Fran Crimi and Ed Whoever. See how that conversation goes. I'll take some side action on who gets the better of the argument.
 
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