More elbow dropping nonsense

You used the oyster as an example, for that you should be red repped by everyone
ChicagoRJ:

Allison is a big underdog against even the 2nd tier of male pros. Her main weakness is lack of a power stroke (a product of having no elbow drop? possibly).

Everyone:

I would equate having no elbow drop to skiing with a wedge. In skiing, all beginners start learning to ski with a wedge because they wouldn't be able to get anywhere if they tried to ski parallel right off the bat. But once they get more comfortable with skiing, they gradually move to skiing parallel, which is more natural and takes less effort. Its basically a walk before you can run situation

How many A players or better have you seen in person with no elbow drop? I could probably count the number I have seen on one hand.

Obviously the easiest way (not necessarily the best) to attain mechanical consistency is to make the fewest body motions possible aka pendulum stroke. This is good for beginners because it gives them a starting point, something they can do with consistency, before venturing out into the real pool world. The down side is that there is wasted energy in the pendulum stroke and it is difficult to produce at high velocities. Let me explain.

Newton's first law is that an object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted on by another force. If your cue is going straight, it naturally wants to go straight unless you do something to it.

Lets focus on a pure centerball hit for moment because draw, follow, and english and such complicate things somewhat. After a pendulum stroke, your cue's butt is higher and the tip is lower than the original positions. meaning it didn't go straight (vertically). This is evidence that the cue was acted on by other forces (your arm) during the stroke and was made to go through unneccessay changes in momentum. In a pendulum stroke, you push through the cue ball and then inevitably pull up (on the back of the cue, the tip goes down as a result of the lever that is your stroke hand, bridge hand, or a combination of both). In an elbow drop stroke, you just push the cue through the cueball.

Why is this important? Even if the pulling up (on the back of the cue) in the pendulum is completely after the cue ball is gone, it still means you are focused on pulling up, where as you should be focused on making the cue go straight. It also leads me to conclude that you are exerting effort where it need not go.

This wasted effort has several side effects: 1) Your body is making motions that have no impact at all on the cueball. 2) Your cue is not following the path that it naturally wants to go. 3) It means you are focusing on doing somthing that is not necessary. Lets go over these points one by one.

1) Lets say we have a robot modeled after a human arm and it only had to make 1 long straight in shot with 1 set bridge length at 1 set elevation. In this case, it would indeed be easier to design the robot to only do a pendulum stroke and the robot would hit the cueball when its arm was perfectly perpendicular at the exact height intended on the cueball. This is because the robot will hit the cueball the same way regardless of speed.

Unfortunately for us humans, we have bodies that must compensate grip pressure, muscle flex, wrist movement, elastic skin on our grip hands, etc. in order to achieve higher cue speeds. Sure, I can bunt a ball with a perfect pendulum stroke, but there is no way I can get the cue moving at 10+mph with exactly the same mechanics as a bunt. Trying to reproduce that same stroke regardless of speed is futile and wasted effort.

A good example is the Austrailian Oyster's reply to Mike Massey's extreme draw vid. Massey does the shot with an elbow drop and has very nice fluidity and timing. It looks almost natural. I figure even I could get it down after a few tries. The Austrailian Oyster on the other hand does the shot with a "text book perfect" pendulum stroke, no elbow drop what-so-ever. It is one of the most forced, robotic, and ugly power strokes that I have ever seen. Baring weight training, there is no way I could reproduce that stroke. I would go as far to surmise that the Austrailian Oyster even with his so called "perfect pendulum stroke" took more than a few takes on that video and the missed attempts were probably not so pretty. Not to mention he was using a low deflection shaft, which is generally easier to deliver than a standard shaft. Mike doesn't strike me as the type to use a low deflection shaft, although I could be wrong.

2) Lets go back to Mr. Robot. He makes that one long straight in with extreme accuracy, provided it is set up perfectly every time. Unfortunately, variations in bridge length, bridge height, elevation, etc. will prevent him from playing good pool even if you handed Efren himself the controls. Once the cueball gets anywhere near a rail or a ball impedes his bridgehand, its game over for Mr. Robot.

For us humans, who have to deal with even more variations than that, such as lack of metal joints, not being able to grip the exact same spot on the cue every time, having a bridge hand that flexes (even if only very slightly), how is it possible that we can be expected to deliver a cue more accurately to a target that is maybe a square milimeter in width on the cueball when we are making the cue move not only forward, but vertically as well?

Lets say there are two types of consistency, mechanical consistency and cueing consistency. Mechanical consistency is the consistency of the body; how consistent your body is moving, generally the less movement, the better if you want mechanical consistency. Cueing consistency is the consistency of the cuel; how accurately your cue strikes the cueball.

Let me make things simple, mechanical efficiency does not necessarily equate to cueing consistency.

A pendulum stroke means that you only have 1 point in your stroke where the cue strikes precisely where you wanted it to because the tip is moving up and down on the vertical axis. A vertically and horizontally straight stroke, provided it is indeed vertically and horizontally straight has the whole of the stroke length to strike the cue ball where you wanted.

Lets create a thought experiment. We have 2 robots, one delivers the cue like an arrow, basically perfectly parallel to the table. The other delivers the cue in a pendulum stroke, the tip starts from the bridge hand and finishes down on the table. Lets forget about the fact that both of the robots would have trouble bridging over rails and over balls. Next, lets assume you have to position the robots into shots yourself. Which would you rather use, the robot that delivers the cue to the same spot regardless of bridge length, or the one that you have to position at precisely the correct bridge length or else it hits the cueball too low or too high?

Elbow dropping has a purpose, it is to allow the momentum of the cue to travel in the same direction as it was going from the beginning of the stroke. Basically our goal is to let the cue go in as natural a direction as possible. Now a perfectly horizontally and vertically straight stroke is impossible as we are only human, our back stroke naturally raised the back end of the cue (unless you put 2 elbow drops and an elbow raise in your stroke), and the rails tend to disallow for it, but to purposfully not have a vertically straight stroke and put effort into making your stroke not straight is a waste of time.

Now if you naturally have a pendulum stroke and can't get the timing of a straighter stroke down, thats a problem you have to work out with practice or a factor you will have figure out some way to overcome.

3) This one is self explanatory, why focus on doing something that is unnatural and not necessarily better for you?


Lets sum things up.

At slow speeds, provided you set yourself up correctly, there is no real difference between the two strokes unless you are horrible at timing. A person with a horizontally crooked elbow drop stroke will most likely have a crooked pendulum stroke unless he has never held a cue before. At high speeds, the difference is that the elbow drop is not as affected by slight variations in your body, setting, etc. because you have more than 1 point to hit the cue ball precisely where you intended. Also at high speeds, the body isn't wasting effort trying to force the cue on a path it doesn't want to go naturally.

But who knows really, maybe there was a scientific study on people's arms and it figured out that you can be X% more consistent with a pendulum stroke. Even IF that is true, there is no doubt that the elbow drop can be delivered consistently enough for nearly every top pro. Meaning that once you get to a certain level, the one advantage a pendulum stroke might have had is negated. This level is lower than you might think because A players tend to have very consistant strokes. The argument "well do you have as good timing as earl, or X world class player" is thus irrelevant. Add in the fact that the elbow drop allows you to hit more accurately at high speeds. I see no reason at all to develop a pendulum stroke past the "picked up a cue for the first time" stage.

Even if that hypothetical study mentioned earlier was true, you are still sacrificing power for consistency.

In high level pool, stroke is EVERYTHING. If you sacrifice power for consitency you will get beat by the guy who has power and consistency.
 
watched a player a couple nights ago

heh these threads always blow right up don't they?

If I made a living as an instructor, I wouldn't specifically mention elbow drop, either as good or bad. It's clearly necessary on some shots where a longer follow through and a powerful stroke is needed. But those shots should hopefully be few and far between if you're playing good pool.

"okay so what we're looking to do is make an efficient arm movement, and avoid excessive motion... both side to side" [and here you do a goofy chicken wing stroke] .."and up and down" [and here you do a rollercoaster stroke].

See if the student catches the lack of elbow movement when you do your "proper" stroke. If they imitate it and have no elbow drop, don't correct them. If there's just a little bit of elbow drop, don't correct them. If you see something excessive and wasteful... naturally speak up. This approach makes the most sense to me.


I watched a player a couple nights ago. He did "set" at the cue ball, sometimes once sometimes as much as three or four times. Then without fail he would swing the cue stick back and forth with that goofy up and down stroke, back, forward, back, and fire. The stick would be moving up and down in a very noticeable manner so that it never stopped moving even at the front of his final practice stroke always taken after the "set".

The guy doesn't really know how to play pool so he just redefined how to play. Same thing with One Pocket. He doesn't really know how to play One Pocket so he just created a new way to play it. Normally I'd take advantage of all his flaws to bet big and rob him but he has been getting lucky in world class competition for over twenty years and I don't want to buck that kind of luck! 'Sides which he is a little short foreign guy and it wouldn't be right to pick on him when he is visiting our country.

Hu
 
I watched a player a couple nights ago. He did "set" at the cue ball, sometimes once sometimes as much as three or four times. Then without fail he would swing the cue stick back and forth with that goofy up and down stroke, back, forward, back, and fire. The stick would be moving up and down in a very noticeable manner so that it never stopped moving even at the front of his final practice stroke always taken after the "set".

The guy doesn't really know how to play pool so he just redefined how to play. Same thing with One Pocket. He doesn't really know how to play One Pocket so he just created a new way to play it. Normally I'd take advantage of all his flaws to bet big and rob him but he has been getting lucky in world class competition for over twenty years and I don't want to buck that kind of luck! 'Sides which he is a little short foreign guy and it wouldn't be right to pick on him when he is visiting our country.

Hu

Good that you let you conscience be your guide and not take advantage of the lil fella. :groucho: (but I still think the pump is silly.. I don't care who's milking it)
 
I was trying to avoid this thread but can't help myself.

The argument that everybody does it or nobody does it, IMO are not reasons to do anything.

The Pro instructors have studied this issue and have determined that elbow drop is not something that needs to be a part of the "By the Book" mechanics.

The argument for this is that elbow drop does nothing to the CB since its gone, and if the CB hasn't left before the drop then some control is lost. I can't argue with that.

Many years ago I was told that in 3C the stroke is different than pool. A 3C stroke is more of an arm stroke than wrist. If you watch the top 3C players you can see the difference with most. A good exception was Sang Lee. Very wristy.

When I got together with Scott Lee he asked me "What did Mark Wilson have to say about your elbow dropping?" He didn't like it and tried to correct it. Scott determined that it came after contact and told me not to worry about it. So I don't. That being said Marks correction definitely helped improve my stroke. At that time I was about 1-2mm away from my intended contact point. That's has tightened up.

The funny thing for me is when I'm in dead stoke and in the zone my elbow drops. Its not that I'm trying to do something with the CB it a feel thing. It seems that I can feel and control the CB better. The elbow thing doesn't really do anything but neither does follow through. Except for one major point. The cue is accelerating through the ball rather than decelerating at contact. So the elbow drop is simply an exaggerated follow through. OK so so you say that long follow through is not necessary. No argument here either.

When out of stoke like now I go back to the book pendulum till that all comes together then I bring back the drop. Thats when I'm realllllly feelin the ball. Sorry thats just the way it is in my head.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Siz
technical and real world

We can view things from a purely mechanical standpoint and say that follow-through is not necessary to perform an action. Baseball, golf, pool, tennis, regardless of the sport, once the ball leaves the face of what we strike it with anything we do afterwards is meaningless in regard to what the ball does.

However, we are human beings and with an understanding of how our body's work follow-through is usually very important, not for what it does but for what it prevents. Shooting long shots requiring a lot of precision I often let my arm collapse after striking the cue ball giving a very extended follow-through. This doesn't do anything to alter the path of the cue ball but what it does do is insure that my body isn't recognizing that my next action will be to stop the cue and other muscles start to engage prematurely.

Our muscles normally work in matching pairs or sets and due to our life's activities these sets of muscles are never perfectly balanced. I think even individual muscles can grow asymmetrically. This means that if we jerk to a start or stop we are almost certain to steer whatever is in our hand to one direction or the other. The mechanically useless follow-through insures that the muscles aren't already contracting anticipating the next movement.

I can't think of any of the pro's using the pendulum that I haven't seen drop the elbow on follow-through of some shots. Often it is a money ball shot where the sole focus is on making the object ball without scratching.

Hu




I was trying to avoid this thread but can't help myself.

The argument that everybody does it or nobody does it, IMO are not reasons to do anything.

The Pro instructors have studied this issue and have determined that elbow drop is not something that needs to be a part of the "By the Book" mechanics.

The argument for this is that elbow drop does nothing to the CB since its gone, and if the CB hasn't left before the drop then some control is lost. I can't argue with that.

Many years ago I was told that in 3C the stroke is different than pool. A 3C stroke is more of an arm stroke than wrist. If you watch the top 3C players you can see the difference with most. A good exception was Sang Lee. Very wristy.

When I got together with Scott Lee he asked me "What did Mark Wilson have to say about your elbow dropping?" He didn't like it and tried to correct it. Scott determined that it came after contact and told me not to worry about it. So I don't. That being said Marks correction definitely helped improve my stroke. At that time I was about 1-2mm away from my intended contact point. That's has tightened up.

The funny thing for me is when I'm in dead stoke and in the zone my elbow drops. Its not that I'm trying to do something with the CB it a feel thing. It seems that I can feel and control the CB better. The elbow thing doesn't really do anything but neither does follow through. Except for one major point. The cue is accelerating through the ball rather than decelerating at contact. So the elbow drop is simply an exaggerated follow through. OK so so you say that long follow through is not necessary. No argument here either.

When out of stoke like now I go back to the book pendulum till that all comes together then I bring back the drop. Thats when I'm realllllly feelin the ball. Sorry thats just the way it is in my head.
 
Good that you let you conscience be your guide and not take advantage of the lil fella. :groucho: (but I still think the pump is silly.. I don't care who's milking it)

LOL.

I hope you caught that he just described Efren Reyes. :D

Russ
 
ChicagoRJ:

Allison is a big underdog against even the 2nd tier of male pros. Her main weakness is lack of a power stroke (a product of having no elbow drop? possibly).

I just want to comment on this. Although this may or may not be true today, a few years ago this was def not true. Not saying she wasn't an underdog, but big underdog she def wasn't. I mean, the girl hardly EVER missed from what I witnessed. I watched her beat the hell out of a few of your tier 2s and maybe a few top pros in the IPT World 8Ball in Reno - and that was the biggest tourney ever.
 
Hurling a wad of steel wool into an energized fuse box

Dave:

Boy, you certainly WERE bored to initiate a thread like this! :D

This is roughly analogous to going to one's basement in a very old building, opening the door to the fusebox (the old cartridge-style bus fuses with the power-disengage handle on the side of the fusebox), standing back about 10 feet, hurling a huge wad of steel wool onto the energized contacts, and watching the huge explosion of white sparks and loud "pop" sound that results when the steel wool vaporizes.

Wow, that was a very vivid recollection now that I read it back. Perhaps I myself might be guilty of something like this in my much younger years. :p

Fun thread, though. Got any more of that steel wool? Methinks there's an aiming system's fuse box somewhere we might want to hurl it into... :D

-Sean
 
Side Spin/Pendulum Stroke/Elbow Drop

One of the things that many people seem to ignore is the mini-masse (swerve) that the pendulum stroke imparts to the cue ball when using even small amounts of side spin.

If the cue is going in a downward movement on the cue ball (and it almost always is with a pendulum stroke), there is going to be more mini-masse (swerve) any time you use side spin than if you were hitting with an elbow dropping stroke.

Othertimes, I think about elbow drop in the same manner that I do "accelerating through the cue ball". Why some people seem so certain that elbow drop is a bad thing is beyond my understanding.

JoeyA says, "If it works for you, DO IT!

JoeyA says, "Listen to everyone, try what other people suggest and then do what makes you perform your best."

JoeyA
 
Spiderman:

I used to have a wrist snap, but I'm trying to get away from that and use a quiet wrist.

Wayne Norcross told me the wrist should just go along for the ride.

If you don't blink you can see my wrist gets left behind for an instant when I pull the trigger. Is that what you were referring to, or the position of it at the finish, where it looks like I'm feeding out rope?
 
I never really thought about it until this thread. I just reviewed some old video of myself going through drills. On the drills performed I shot the same shots from three different angles to watch form ect. I noticed that I have a slight elbow drop on some and on follow or force follow more. I believe that it will occur depending each individual shot. Since each shot has different variables it would stand to reason.
 
Spiderman:

I used to have a wrist snap, but I'm trying to get away from that and use a quiet wrist.

Wayne Norcross told me the wrist should just go along for the ride.

If you don't blink you can see my wrist gets left behind for an instant when I pull the trigger. Is that what you were referring to, or the position of it at the finish, where it looks like I'm feeding out rope?

I think your wrist should be left behind for a moment - with a forward snap to follow. That fast acceleration (for a more advanced player) is the move... but what do I know, I'm a nobody. That's why I commented on your transition. I like it - I wouldn't change a thing. Def not something for beginners, but a bad technique it's not 100%. Bruce Lee said, "Be like water...." and I think he's correct.
 
Last edited:
I think your wrist should be left behind for a moment - with a forward snap to follow. That fast acceleration (for a more advanced player) is the move... but what do I know, I'm a nobody. That's why I commented on your transition. I like it - I wouldn't change a thing. Def not something for beginners, but a bad technique it's not 100%. Bruce Lee said, "Be like water...." and I think he's correct.

I don't think you need any wrist movement at all, but if you must, I believe the key is to not have any lateral wrist movement. Corey is a shining example of this. He doesn't snap or flick his wrist, but he bends it on the follow through, keeping his cue fairly level.
 
I don't think you need any wrist movement at all, but if you must, I believe the key is to not have any lateral wrist movement. Corey is a shining example of this. He doesn't snap or flick his wrist, but he bends it on the follow through, keeping his cue fairly level.

Of course lateral is bad. It's really hard to find a great player with a truly static wrist, imo. But, alas, this is all a different thread.
 
Of course lateral is bad. It's really hard to find a great player with a truly static wrist, imo. But, alas, this is all a different thread.

I was always under the impression that the majority of the top players keep their wrists stable before striking the cue ball, i.e. Yang, Orcullo, and even super power stroke Larry Nevel. I could be mistaken, but from I've seen a lot of them don't use their wrists.
 
The elbow drop is a critical part of a natural feeling follow through for many many players, including top players such as Sigel, SVB, Jimmy White for the snooker crowd, and others.

There are also players that do not have elbow drop and some of those are right up there with the above players.

The reality is that elbow drop is neither a benefit OR a deterent, what matters is what feels natural and "right" for you. A player that has a natural elbow drop as part of their follow through is not going to gain from changing to something that feels unnatural to them, they will instead likely see a negative result. The same is true of people with no elbow drop though, if you do not have one in your game naturally it is not something that you should try to create, it would be extremely hard to control.

One thing is certain, 20 years from now some people will swear against elbow drop saying it is a bad thing that people should remove from their game and at that exact same moment a great many of the top players in the world will be winning championships with an elbow drop.
 
Back
Top