More elbow dropping nonsense

I just want to comment on this. Although this may or may not be true today, a few years ago this was def not true. Not saying she wasn't an underdog, but big underdog she def wasn't. I mean, the girl hardly EVER missed from what I witnessed. I watched her beat the hell out of a few of your tier 2s and maybe a few top pros in the IPT World 8Ball in Reno - and that was the biggest tourney ever.
The underdog can win sometimes, even if she wins 30% of the time which is more than likely an overestimate, she is still a big underdog. Hardly ever missing is just one part of a pro's skill set, hell good A players hardly ever miss. The top pros make outs where there is none. I have not seen Allison do much of this.

Can anybody name a top pro with no elbow drop? I can't think of one.
 
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Jasmin, or any of the Europeans?

Top pros only, please. Ralph, Mika, and Thorsten all have an elbow drop on medium/hard shots.

Basically this question is to figure out what the top eschelon of pendulum strokers is.

I actually know of a British "pro" (in the level of play sense, not the well known sense) that is a pendulum stroker and has a very nice power stroke, but he is by no means a top pro and he is one compared to many, many elbow droppers. Now that I think about it, he might be the best pendulum stroker I know of, definitely the best I have seen in person.
 
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Why do those who drop their elbow after contact require better timing than those who don't? The ball's already gone. I keep hearing the contact time is 1/1000 of a second. After contact, who cares if you do triple step, rock step and dip your opponent while listening to swing music?

I don't think timing is even a factor for these players--- they're rock solid upon impact. If you watch a great player who drops their elbow and a great player who doesn't - they look nearly identical until the ball begins its initial movement. After that occurs, I'm lost as to why any form is proper or not--- the ball has already vamosed a la playa.

I've watched myself play on video a lot. I drop my elbow on longer shots that require speed. It's a natural motion for me and bringing my hand to my chest feels limiting. I can do nearly anything with the CB I want to do--- make any shot--- and I wouldn't say I have any better timing than the next guy.

OH and by the way....

I figured I'd start an instigating thread just because I'm snowed in and bored out of my mind. I just got done shoveling nearly 3' of snow in front of my house which took me almost 3 hours. This is fun to read.

In golf instruction, people talk about different forms, swings, etc. There is probably nothing more nit-picky than golf swing instruction and the "tips" could fill a library.

Anyway, Jack Nicklaus got tired of people asking about swing mechanics. He had a conversation ending pharase down pat. He said basically,

"despite swing differences, at impact all pros look pretty much the same."

And sure enough, if you look at the stills front, back, and sideways of pro golfers - they all do look pretty much the same at impact - no matter how they looked arriving there.

Anyway, I remember finding a tape of Mike Massey hitting some of his triple length draw shots and watching his huge elbow drop. I stopped the tape at impact on one frame, and his elbow was clearly pinned in starting position. The elbow follow through was a natural reaction to the momemtum his powerful stroke developed.

Chris
 
Well in the movie The color of money Tom Cruise drops his elbow. Ever since I saw him drop his elbow I've dropped mine ever since.
 
Yep, me too !!

QUOTE: Donny Mills - "Well in the movie The color of money Tom Cruise drops his elbow. Ever since I saw him drop his elbow I've dropped mine ever since"

Donny, I saw that movie too, and ever since I started twirling my pool cue and dating hot hollywood starlets... I guess you copied the wrong thing he was trying to teach us !!! OK, not 100% true, but I do twirl my cue on occasion !!
 
Piper had the best elbow drop. He used to almost kick-out with his feet and rotate his entire body into it. Hogan's wasn't bad either... oh wait... never mind, that's the "big leg."
 
True, but Rick Flair had the best line ever. To be the man you got to beat the man.
 
Hope everyone's ready to discuss this further.
 

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so, to recap..

· Lotta pros do it
· Mostly when a good player does it, it's only after contact so it won't affect anything.
· On some shots it's necessary (or is this one still not unanimous?)
· This video is not only entertaining, it has one of the best titles of any pool video
on youtube: Long Dong vs. Three Foul Rule

I'm leaning towards elbow drop being harmless, unless someone sees it specifically happening before the tip makes contact, and it's enough to cause problems.

This all reminds me of a section in one of Robert Byrne's books about pool myths. He addresses the usual suspects like wrist snapping and jacking up to get more draw. But he also says that following through is something of a myth too. The cue ball doesn't know what your arm is doing once it leaves the tip. But the argument for following through is it's a natural extension of what you're doing anyway, so there's no reason to forcibly stop it. And by forcibly stopping it, you may be sending mixed messages to your arm before you even start your stroke... some subconscious part of your brain says "I need to jerk to a stop" before the stroke truly finishes, and you don't get the acceleration you intended. The result is a weak stroke that didn't impart the nice draw or whatever you intended.

It makes me wonder if maybe the still elbow concept might cause more harm than good along the same lines. Just a lil devil's advocate.
 
so, to recap..

· Lotta pros do it
· Mostly when a good player does it, it's only after contact so it won't affect anything.
· On some shots it's necessary (or is this one still not unanimous?)
· This video is not only entertaining, it has one of the best titles of any pool video
on youtube: Long Dong vs. Three Foul Rule

I'm leaning towards elbow drop being harmless, unless someone sees it specifically happening before the tip makes contact, and it's enough to cause problems.

This all reminds me of a section in one of Robert Byrne's books about pool myths. He addresses the usual suspects like wrist snapping and jacking up to get more draw. But he also says that following through is something of a myth too. The cue ball doesn't know what your arm is doing once it leaves the tip. But the argument for following through is it's a natural extension of what you're doing anyway, so there's no reason to forcibly stop it. And by forcibly stopping it, you may be sending mixed messages to your arm before you even start your stroke... some subconscious part of your brain says "I need to jerk to a stop" before the stroke truly finishes, and you don't get the acceleration you intended. The result is a weak stroke that didn't impart the nice draw or whatever you intended.

It makes me wonder if maybe the still elbow concept might cause more harm than good along the same lines. Just a lil devil's advocate.

The only way the still elbow concept could possibly help is to prevent injuries. In general, a longer stroke gives a greater margin for error for speed control, which imo is the limiting factor in pool if you know how to aim. The only way I know of to lengthen a stroke is to drop the elbow. I don't even like Spidey, but he's right about this... even though he don't know crap about aiming.:grin-square:
 
One of the things that many people seem to ignore is the mini-masse (swerve) that the pendulum stroke imparts to the cue ball when using even small amounts of side spin.

What kind of BS is this statement????? When executed properly, the pendulum stroke brings the cue stick level to the cue ball at impact. Where downs that down crap come from???


If the cue is going in a downward movement on the cue ball (and it almost always is with a pendulum stroke), BS

there is going to be more mini-masse (swerve) any time you use side spin than if you were hitting with an elbow dropping stroke. Very true!

Othertimes, I think about elbow drop in the same manner that I do "accelerating through the cue ball". Why some people seem so certain that elbow drop is a bad thing is beyond my understanding.

JoeyA says, "If it works for you, DO IT!

JoeyA says, "Listen to everyone, try what other people suggest and then do what makes you perform your best."

JoeyA

Just wondering what you are looking at....SPF=randyg
 
I would like to make one point on the subject. Teaching not dropping the elbow and using the pendilum stroke has proven to successfully help hundreds or thousands of players become more accurate and consistent with their stroke.

If you think your way is better, by all means, continue to shoot that way. But don't knock something that has proven to be extremely successful for so many players.

Steve

Pooltchr,

With all due respect to the instructors here, the situation you present is not an indication of the success *in particular* of not dropping the elbow. There are MANY variables at work in a student's success. First of all, you are talking about pool players who are motivated enough to improve that they paid money for a lesson. Odds are that no matter who they learn from or what bad habits they employ, their game is due to improve over time to some extent anyway. Likewise, having taken lessons with SPF instructors, there will undoubtedly be other things talked about in the lessons that could yield a far greater impact on the players game. For example, I took lessons with Scott Lee and derived the most benefit (imho) from discussions about consistent pre-shot routine. We did discuss the elbow drop, and agreed that we would not go into that in my lesson, since I am tall and use a standard length cue. For me, a slight elbow drop is almost necessary, and has become a firmly ingrained part of my stroke. Kudos to Scott for successfully giving me the info on that topic, and then letting it go and moving on to other things that could help me.

I personally believe that the elbow drop has as its primary benefit the effect of making the cue tip travel at a fixed height. My experience says that I can more reliably hit the point I am trying to hit using this method (and having tried the motionless elbow method extensively). I don't advocate an aggressive elbow drop like in those Sigel videos, just enough to keep the cue tip at a consistent height throughout the stroke.

That said, I absolutely support the concept of a fixed elbow and believe it could be successful for many people, especially people under say 5'10" or so. However as far as I can tell, this technique is taught because it *seems* like it could be more reliable. It seems that way based on the principle that less moving parts yields less complexity and hence more reliable repeatability. This *may* be true, but I don't know of any experiments that verify this. People may say (as you have) that many people have shown improvement based on teaching this concept. However, I sincerely doubt that too many SPF students have exclusively focused their lessons on elbow drop. My guess is that many things were discussed, and any, some, or none of them may be responsible for the improvement.

I think the central value for SPF is the idea of teaching a *clearly defined method* of playing pool. I think few could argue that if you just did all the things SPF teachers advocate, you would certainly acquire the potential to play at a very high level. I don't see any of their teachings as something that would hold one back in their game. Are they all for certain the best way to do each thing? Maybe, maybe not. But they are at least very good, and shouldn't be discounted. Even someone totally opposed to eliminating elbow drop might benefit from learning about the concept, trying it each way, and building their overall knowledge base about pool and themselves through that process.

Thinking out loud,

KMRUNOUT
 
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Just wondering what you are looking at....SPF=randyg

Randy,after I read this entire thread,my head hurts. I'm concerned JoeyA may be suffering an aneurysm,and hierovision scared me to death with the weatherchannel map of the son of snowmageddon!!! All this makes me question whether or not tip contact with the cueball has meaning anymore!!!!:banghead::grin-square:
 
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ChicagoRJ:

Allison is a big underdog against even the 2nd tier of male pros. Her main weakness is lack of a power stroke (a product of having no elbow drop? possibly).

Everyone:

I would equate having no elbow drop to skiing with a wedge. In skiing, all beginners start learning to ski with a wedge because they wouldn't be able to get anywhere if they tried to ski parallel right off the bat. But once they get more comfortable with skiing, they gradually move to skiing parallel, which is more natural and takes less effort. Its basically a walk before you can run situation

How many A players or better have you seen in person with no elbow drop? I could probably count the number I have seen on one hand.

Obviously the easiest way (not necessarily the best) to attain mechanical consistency is to make the fewest body motions possible aka pendulum stroke. This is good for beginners because it gives them a starting point, something they can do with consistency, before venturing out into the real pool world. The down side is that there is wasted energy in the pendulum stroke and it is difficult to produce at high velocities. Let me explain.

Newton's first law is that an object in motion tends to stay in motion unless acted on by another force. If your cue is going straight, it naturally wants to go straight unless you do something to it.

Lets focus on a pure centerball hit for moment because draw, follow, and english and such complicate things somewhat. After a pendulum stroke, your cue's butt is higher and the tip is lower than the original positions. meaning it didn't go straight (vertically). This is evidence that the cue was acted on by other forces (your arm) during the stroke and was made to go through unneccessay changes in momentum. In a pendulum stroke, you push through the cue ball and then inevitably pull up (on the back of the cue, the tip goes down as a result of the lever that is your stroke hand, bridge hand, or a combination of both). In an elbow drop stroke, you just push the cue through the cueball.

Why is this important? Even if the pulling up (on the back of the cue) in the pendulum is completely after the cue ball is gone, it still means you are focused on pulling up, where as you should be focused on making the cue go straight. It also leads me to conclude that you are exerting effort where it need not go.

This wasted effort has several side effects: 1) Your body is making motions that have no impact at all on the cueball. 2) Your cue is not following the path that it naturally wants to go. 3) It means you are focusing on doing somthing that is not necessary. Lets go over these points one by one.

1) Lets say we have a robot modeled after a human arm and it only had to make 1 long straight in shot with 1 set bridge length at 1 set elevation. In this case, it would indeed be easier to design the robot to only do a pendulum stroke and the robot would hit the cueball when its arm was perfectly perpendicular at the exact height intended on the cueball. This is because the robot will hit the cueball the same way regardless of speed.

Unfortunately for us humans, we have bodies that must compensate grip pressure, muscle flex, wrist movement, elastic skin on our grip hands, etc. in order to achieve higher cue speeds. Sure, I can bunt a ball with a perfect pendulum stroke, but there is no way I can get the cue moving at 10+mph with exactly the same mechanics as a bunt. Trying to reproduce that same stroke regardless of speed is futile and wasted effort.

A good example is the Austrailian Oyster's reply to Mike Massey's extreme draw vid. Massey does the shot with an elbow drop and has very nice fluidity and timing. It looks almost natural. I figure even I could get it down after a few tries. The Austrailian Oyster on the other hand does the shot with a "text book perfect" pendulum stroke, no elbow drop what-so-ever. It is one of the most forced, robotic, and ugly power strokes that I have ever seen. Baring weight training, there is no way I could reproduce that stroke. I would go as far to surmise that the Austrailian Oyster even with his so called "perfect pendulum stroke" took more than a few takes on that video and the missed attempts were probably not so pretty. Not to mention he was using a low deflection shaft, which is generally easier to deliver than a standard shaft. Mike doesn't strike me as the type to use a low deflection shaft, although I could be wrong.

2) Lets go back to Mr. Robot. He makes that one long straight in with extreme accuracy, provided it is set up perfectly every time. Unfortunately, variations in bridge length, bridge height, elevation, etc. will prevent him from playing good pool even if you handed Efren himself the controls. Once the cueball gets anywhere near a rail or a ball impedes his bridgehand, its game over for Mr. Robot.

For us humans, who have to deal with even more variations than that, such as lack of metal joints, not being able to grip the exact same spot on the cue every time, having a bridge hand that flexes (even if only very slightly), how is it possible that we can be expected to deliver a cue more accurately to a target that is maybe a square milimeter in width on the cueball when we are making the cue move not only forward, but vertically as well?

Lets say there are two types of consistency, mechanical consistency and cueing consistency. Mechanical consistency is the consistency of the body; how consistent your body is moving, generally the less movement, the better if you want mechanical consistency. Cueing consistency is the consistency of the cuel; how accurately your cue strikes the cueball.

Let me make things simple, mechanical efficiency does not necessarily equate to cueing consistency.

A pendulum stroke means that you only have 1 point in your stroke where the cue strikes precisely where you wanted it to because the tip is moving up and down on the vertical axis. A vertically and horizontally straight stroke, provided it is indeed vertically and horizontally straight has the whole of the stroke length to strike the cue ball where you wanted.

Lets create a thought experiment. We have 2 robots, one delivers the cue like an arrow, basically perfectly parallel to the table. The other delivers the cue in a pendulum stroke, the tip starts from the bridge hand and finishes down on the table. Lets forget about the fact that both of the robots would have trouble bridging over rails and over balls. Next, lets assume you have to position the robots into shots yourself. Which would you rather use, the robot that delivers the cue to the same spot regardless of bridge length, or the one that you have to position at precisely the correct bridge length or else it hits the cueball too low or too high?

Elbow dropping has a purpose, it is to allow the momentum of the cue to travel in the same direction as it was going from the beginning of the stroke. Basically our goal is to let the cue go in as natural a direction as possible. Now a perfectly horizontally and vertically straight stroke is impossible as we are only human, our back stroke naturally raised the back end of the cue (unless you put 2 elbow drops and an elbow raise in your stroke), and the rails tend to disallow for it, but to purposfully not have a vertically straight stroke and put effort into making your stroke not straight is a waste of time.

Now if you naturally have a pendulum stroke and can't get the timing of a straighter stroke down, thats a problem you have to work out with practice or a factor you will have figure out some way to overcome.

3) This one is self explanatory, why focus on doing something that is unnatural and not necessarily better for you?


Lets sum things up.

At slow speeds, provided you set yourself up correctly, there is no real difference between the two strokes unless you are horrible at timing. A person with a horizontally crooked elbow drop stroke will most likely have a crooked pendulum stroke unless he has never held a cue before. At high speeds, the difference is that the elbow drop is not as affected by slight variations in your body, setting, etc. because you have more than 1 point to hit the cue ball precisely where you intended. Also at high speeds, the body isn't wasting effort trying to force the cue on a path it doesn't want to go naturally.

But who knows really, maybe there was a scientific study on people's arms and it figured out that you can be X% more consistent with a pendulum stroke. Even IF that is true, there is no doubt that the elbow drop can be delivered consistently enough for nearly every top pro. Meaning that once you get to a certain level, the one advantage a pendulum stroke might have had is negated. This level is lower than you might think because A players tend to have very consistant strokes. The argument "well do you have as good timing as earl, or X world class player" is thus irrelevant. Add in the fact that the elbow drop allows you to hit more accurately at high speeds. I see no reason at all to develop a pendulum stroke past the "picked up a cue for the first time" stage.

Even if that hypothetical study mentioned earlier was true, you are still sacrificing power for consistency.

In high level pool, stroke is EVERYTHING. If you sacrifice power for consitency you will get beat by the guy who has power and consistency.

Excellent post. Well reasoned and well worded. Nice job!!

KMRUNOUT
 
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