Mosconi Cup, Team USA, the real problem still exists.

[nobcitypool]

You're welcome to your opinion and I agree with some of it. It could be that some members of the team simply don't have the funding to have made the trip. Do you know for fact the euros weren't sponsored?

I went over the pragmatic reasons for not going to the event in the first post. The reality is the entire of professionals from Europe saw the value in going to the event beyond simply the monetary reasons and they went and they got the international exposure and the experience and they will be stronger players because of it.

Anyone has the choice to be pragmatic and not compete at the highest level in pool. But the whole idea of a bunch of USA players who do not commit to pool 100% like the Euros do beating that team at the Mosconi Cup is nothing more then a bunch of lip service and hype. They have no chance because they do not treat the sport like the professional competition it truly is and how a true professional really needs to play it to be at the elite level.

It does not matter how many trips to visit sick kids in the hospital they do or how many dinners they eat as a team during the event or how well they have honed their high fiving skills. It is a team of USA players who largely do not commit to professional elite pool anywhere near to the same level as their European counterparts.

That is why they have no chance and all of the stuff Mark Wilson and the "team" have been doing does not make up for the fact that the USA Mosconi Cup team members are simply not as committed to playing professional pool as the Euro team members are.

If Mark Wilson wanted to get a group together to actually compete against the Euros THE most important question he should have asked the prospective players is "Are you committed to playing a full season of full time professional pool at the highest level and going to all of the major events both in the USA and abroad this year to hone your skills before the Mosconi Cup?" Clearly he has people on the team that had absolutely no plan to truly focus on professional pool to that degree.

 

[PINKLADY]

....It could be that some members of the team simply don't have the funding to have made the trip....

then they aren't "pros".
if they aren't self-sustainable,
in their own careers,
then "you get what you give".

 

[Celtic]

It could be that some members of the team simply don't have the funding to have made the trip. Do you know for fact the euros weren't sponsored?

A) As I mentioned, Justin Bergman just won a huge barbox event that paid out $20,000. If a pro pool player is committed to reaching the top they are taking those types of wins and reinvesting that money to get into the bigger and better events.

B) The Euros quite possibly have sponsorship, and do you know "why" they have it if they do? Because they have gone out there and put the time and money into the game to compete and get better and make themselves into international pool player professionals who are known the world over and who bring a decent return to their sponsors. They all did what had to be done to get the huge wins, get the WPA event titles, make themselves famous the world over by getting out there and playing in all of the major events and eventually winning some of them. Sponsorship comes AFTER a player proves themselves to be a valuable commodity to the sponsors. It is "NOT" charity, and that is how the American pool players often like to see it. The players need to get out there and compete and eventually win and then and only then are the sponsors going to invest in those players.

Sponsorship is one of the many rewards for getting into these events and doing well. A lot of people like to go "well if you get 8th you only break even after expenses" but that fails to take into account the value of the experience, the exposure to the international pool scene, the exposure to the potential sponsors. There is far more to going to these tournaments then the check at the end, this is something the American players have failed to realize and that other players like the Euros have a clear understanding of.

 

[nobcitypool]

Like I said, you're welcome to your opinion. The USA has football, basketball and baseball; Europe has soccer. I guess pool is higher on their list of entertainment choices than it is here. I personally don't think the outcome of the Mosconi Cup hinges upon the team members playing in China.

 

[Celophanewrap]

I find it hard to believe, that in the wealthiest country in the world, a country with 350 plus million people, that no one would sponsor Mike to China. Arguably the #2 Rotation pool player in the United States should be able to attend this match, if he wanted to.

I don't think it's so much Mike. It could be the squeekest clean person in the USA that is a veteran and writes childrens books, this is still just pool. Pool needs a friend, a benefactor, if you will. Pool needs a Mark Cuban or a Donald Trump, some one filthy rich with obsenely rich friends to take an interest. Pool needs an American Nike or Riddell sports to take an interest or Ping or Louisville Slugger needs to develop a cue and get SVB to play with and market it. Right now pool is still a back alley game played by gamblers, criminals, and other swarthy types with low moral character. It doesn't matter if you spent $5,000 or your player that is a brilliant piece of art worthy of placement in a museum. You are a pool player and no better than the scum at accumulates at the corners of your mouth on a really hot day.
If American pool had some really stinking rich people involved the very best players would play and it wouldn't be all about the green room games because there'd be real money in winning a tournament and real sponsors with deep pockets. Until then, well, we're all toe jam, and that sucks

 

[Banikane]

Great post by the OP. I thought the M. Cup was about the best talent vs the best talent. Yeah at the last cup most American players acted like jack a$$e$ but they didn't break any official rules and it was a team that was hand picked not earned as in prior years. It was on the captain for not stepping up,leading and calming them down(isn't that the job of a captain?). They even had two with Archer and Hall and CJ in the background to boot. Not one man between the three of them. Not enough brains or balls to control the team.

So do they go back to make the players earn their spot and hire a captain that knows how to coach? Nope, another hand picked team lead by a captain that is more of a cheerleader than a coach. Says he cares more about team than talent, how about taking talent and teaching them to be a team? I would love to know his answer on why he didn't get his TEAM to the China Open? We all know the real reason-no talent, heck they barely beat a bunch of locals in California. This year will be more of a joke than last year, if I wanted to spend the day watching talentless choirboys sitting nice and quiet I'll go to church! Half the team is too embarrassed to compete here in local tourneys let alone go to the other side of the planet to get their butts handed to them! How Wilson is allowed to pick people to compete in a pool tournament that don't even compete in pool tournaments is beyond me.

kumbayah boy scout troop mc2014 I hope the beating you take this year will earn you a pool badge this year!

 

[Cardigan Kid]

I went over the pragmatic reasons for not going to the event in the first post. The reality is the entire of professionals from Europe saw the value in going to the event beyond simply the monetary reasons and they went and they got the international exposure and the experience and they will be stronger players because of it.

Anyone has the choice to be pragmatic and not compete at the highest level in pool. But the whole idea of a bunch of USA players who do not commit to pool 100% like the Euros do beating that team at the Mosconi Cup is nothing more then a bunch of lip service and hype. They have no chance because they do not treat the sport like the professional competition it truly is and how a true professional really needs to play it to be at the elite level.

It does not matter how many trips to visit sick kids in the hospital they do or how many dinners they eat as a team during the event or how well they have honed their high fiving skills. It is a team of USA players who largely do not commit to professIional elite pool anywhere near to the same level as their European counterparts.

That is why they have no chance and all of the stuff Mark Wilson and the "team" have been doing does not make up for the fact that the USA Mosconi Cup team members are simply not as committed to playing professional pool as the Euro team members are.

If Mark Wilson wanted to get a group together to actually compete against the Euros THE most important question he should have asked the prospective players is "Are you committed to playing a full season of full time professional pool at the highest level and going to all of the major events both in the USA and abroad this year to hone your skills before the Mosconi Cup?" Clearly he has people on the team that had absolutely no plan to truly focus on professional pool to that degree.

Was reading in the billiards digest article on niels Feijen, it described how when you are a top player in his country, you get a salary from the government and you live on that and play pool full time. So that has to play a part as well.

It must be nice to not worry about mortgage and bills and just concentrate on your game. And none of the Americans have this luxury.

 

[leto1776]

There's some incredible gaps in whatever logic you used to form that conclusion.

All it takes to present a "good image" at the cup is to go out there, play pool and not act like a jackass. You can act prim and proper all you want, when you lose, won't mean a thing when the Euros win again.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

Good for Niels. He is from the Netherlands.

Apparently, the Dutch don't go around spending millions of tax payers money, oops, did I say millions, I meant billions on re building Mosques in Muslim countries.

He is also under contract for some time with Longoni Cues.

Did you also know that Niels is a Gentleman/Sportsman and doesn't act like many of past Team USA Mosconi Players.

Niels vs Mike D. Hahahaha, no comparison. Same with Boyes, (sp), Ralph S, Appleton etc, no comparison, never was, never will be.
He couldn't keep company with these guys.

 

[backplaying]

Was reading in the billiards digest article on niels Feijen, it described how when you are a top player in his country, you get a salary from the government and you live on that and play pool full time. So that has to play a part as well.

It must be nice to not worry about mortgage and bills and just concentrate on your game. And none of the Americans have this luxury.

I would think the European players have a much better fan base also! I doubt the fans there continually knock their players non-stop. Anyone that thinks any member of team U.S.A. is a big dog in a short race against anyone, doesn't know pool.

 

[gxman]

CELTIC, don't sugar-coat it.

EUR are more well-travelled, well-versed, well-off. down here, we call ém "rounders". (they "get around", cause they are committed & devoted - to themselves, the Game, & their country/peers).

isn't it important to play everyone @ everywhere (especially your future opponents), so that you have as much experience as possible & you know HOW they play @ where?

EDIT - tickets to China are $1100 from NYC.

I was looking at the payouts from 2013, azb list 59 entries and around 27 tied for last. They all still rec'd a $1K payout.

http://www.azbilliards.com/tours_an...n/5319-china-open-2013-mens-division/results/

 

[nobcitypool]

All it takes to present a "good image" at the cup is to go out there, play pool and not act like a jackass. You can act prim and proper all you want, when you lose, won't mean a thing when the Euros win again.

Not sure how that ties in but I wasn't sure how your previous post tied in either.

There are four possible outcomes:

1. Lose and exhibit exceptionally poor sportsmanship.

2. Win and exhibit exceptionally poor sportsmanship.

3. Lose and represent your country with dignity and honor.

4. Win and represent your country with dignity and honor.

In this type of match, I personally prefer 3 and 4 to 1 and 2. Of course, the last two Ryder Cups, with all the supposed stars, still only accomplished 1. They say the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.

 

[pro9dg]

What you must remember is that the China Open is only OPEN if you go and play in the qualifiers.
Spots in the main field are filled on a quota basis. Brandon Shuff wanted to play but there were no spaces in the main draw.
The economics rule out playing qualifiers.

 

[spanky79]

All of the talk about the change to young guns and less "ego" on the team has been well and good. "But" the real problem that team USA has failed to be competitive in the last few years has not ever been the attitudes of the team members.

This is the real reason they fail to compete.

China Open Attendance by team members.

Team Europe members/potential members who attended the China Open

Darren Appleton
Thorsten Hohmann
Mika Immonen
Chris Melling
Karl Boyes
Ralf Souquet
Neils Feijen
Nick Ekonomopolous

Team Europe members/potential members who did not attend the China Open

None

Team USA members who attended the China Open

Shane Van Boeing
Corey Deuel
Oscar Dominguez
Jeremy Sossei

Team USA members picked by Mark Wilson who did not attend the China Open

Justin Bergman
Justin Hall
Brandon Shuff
John Schmidt

Every single one of the players who are likely to be on team Europe compete in the world class events. This was one of the toughest fields of the year and it is events like the China Open that the top pros always play to stay at the top of the game and hone their skills against the elite players of the world.

4 of the 8 people on team USA attended the event. Where were the other 4? I know people can have things they need to do, or they can have issues with money or not see it as a good bet/investment, but EVERY player on team Europe went and competed and they will ALL be stronger players for having done it.

If money is an issue, then where is Justin Bergman? He just won a huge $2000 added bar box event, he could have used that as a stake to get into more world class events abroad and finally come out of the shadows and honed his game against the best of the best, and that WOULD help his game reach the next level.

Where is John Schmidt? I mean at all... You hardly see his name on "any" events of late. How is this guy going to compete at the elite level against the best players in Europe when he has not even played much pool at all over the last 2 years? I would have thought getting chosen for the team would get him commited to playing again and get him out there pushing his game back up near the top of the world, instead he said it was a great honor getting chosen, and I guess we will all now see him in December? Yeah he is sure going to be competitive...

Justin Hall? Has he "EVER" played in a world class event? He might have huge talent but he is going up against guys like Karl Boyes and Melling who have every bit as much talent as he does and who are going to play WAY more top level world class events against world class competition, that is going to make him a HUGE underdog in each match he plays. He might be able to still squeak out a short set win, but it will be a clear upset and over the long haul trying to buck the odds over and over again is a losing bet.

Brandon Shuff? Again, lots of talent, potential, and no world class tournament experience abroad against elite fields full of the best players in the world.

I am sure the half of the field that went to the China Open gained valuable experience, they came away from the event stronger no matter what their outcome was, they can build on their success and failures in that event and they saw the absolutely top elite level that exists in the sport and know now where they need to be to compare to it.

It was ALWAYS a lack of commitment to world class competition that led to the downfall of Team USA in the Mosconi Cup. It was the semi retirement of Archer, Morris (who was actually at the China Open this time), Deuel, and the other seasoned pros that let Team Europe catch up to them and pass them by. If the top American players had kept as focused on the game as the guys on Team Europe and went into every competition and focused on it like they did then the top pros on Team America would have remained right there with their European counterparts.

This has always been the problem with Team USA, and if these young guys who Mark Wilson is trying to make into a "team" are not actually competing at the elite level that the guys from Team Europe are then Team USA is doomed. Going to a day trip to talk to navy seals is awesome, but you know what would have helped team USA better? If EVERY player on the MC team went to the China Open and competed in it and supported each other during it and they ALL came away with the battle hardening it would have caused.

Mike Dechaine is no different. He came on here asking why he was not on the team, right after a big win where he beat Mika in a final. Well after Mika lost that final he went to the China Open and has played great pool against the best players in the world and will come back stronger because of it. Where is Mike? If you are the #2 player in the USA why the heck are you not out there competing at the top level that the sport offers and putting yourself up against the best of the best when the chances arise to do so? That is the way you become the best, you need to get out there and show the WORLD how good you are, not your little neck of the woods at home. Go win one or two of these things in a year and there is no way you won't be chosen for the team next year regardless of attitude. There is a point where a guy has simply too much success to say no to, but you did not even go over there and try... That makes your omission less of a thing IMO because it shows a lack of commitment to really stretch your legs and put yourself out there at the top end of competition, and guess what, every single guy on Team Europe did that and were there.

The first reason is, the team europe guys have a chance to win. Most of team us does not. And second is sponsors. Team europe has good ones and most of team us does not.

 

[takeitdown]

Good for Niels. He is from the Netherlands.

Apparently, the Dutch don't go around spending millions of tax payers money, oops, did I say millions, I meant billions on re building Mosques in Muslim countries.

He is also under contract for some time with Longoni Cues.

Did you also know that Niels is a Gentleman/Sportsman and doesn't act like many of past Team USA Mosconi Players.

Niels vs Mike D. Hahahaha, no comparison. Same with Boyes, (sp), Ralph S, Appleton etc, no comparison, never was, never will be.
He couldn't keep company with these guys.

No offense Appleton can act like a wild animal and has on several occasions. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Pool without passion is a boring game.

 

[Johnson]

china open, seriously who cares? china is an absolute joke look @ the arena they're playing in and not even 1% of the seats are filled, any top american pro (mosconi member or not) that goes to the philippines and gains any respect whatsoever over there will also have mine! the fact that none have specifically traveled there just to gamble yet speaks volumes about how much they really care about improving their games! i am by far not the 1st to say this, it is an absolute no brainer! if u read jay's posts u know they can get cheap action or not so cheap action

 

[leto1776]

Not sure how that ties in but I wasn't sure how your previous post tied in either.

There are four possible outcomes:

1. Lose and exhibit exceptionally poor sportsmanship.

2. Win and exhibit exceptionally poor sportsmanship.

3. Lose and represent your country with dignity and honor.

4. Win and represent your country with dignity and honor.

In this type of match, I personally prefer 3 and 4 to 1 and 2. Of course, the last two Ryder Cups, with all the supposed stars, still only accomplished 1. They say the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.

1. Is bad.
2. Well, with the team being the biggest underdogs in years, if they were to pull off the upset, few people would care how they act.
3. And 4. Again, all they really gotta do to pull off proper behavior is not be "that guy." Hardly difficult. They're making it out to be a bigger deal than it is. Tell the adults to act like adults, or they don't get asked back.

 

[PINKLADY]

1. Is bad.
2. Well, with the team being the biggest underdogs in years, if they were to pull off the upset, few people would care how they act.
3. And 4. Again, all they really gotta do to pull off proper behavior is not be "that guy." Hardly difficult. They're making it out to be a bigger deal than it is. Tell the adults to act like adults, or they don't get asked back.

i agree with all four of your points. you would think it'd be this simple. apparently, it's not. if everyone had been there in DEC, then yáll would understand the outlying dynamics. but USA:EUR ratio was maybe 1:6 attendance.

again - you would think it'd be this simple

that's why i suggested JCIN/Justin as this year's Captain - cause he (standing 6'6") can absolutely jerk-a-knot-in-their-asses.

i hear, that Mark Wilson can do same (at 6'3"). in fact, i think he's already started....

Tell the adults to act like adults, or they don't get asked back.

 

[cleary]

The china open was by invitation unless you play through their pre tournament qualifier. A lot of America players were not invited.

 

[pro9dg]

The china open was by invitation unless you play through their pre tournament qualifier. A lot of America players were not invited.

Not strictly true. As in all WPA events the various regions of the World get spots and these work out roughly as Asia 35% Europe 35% USA 10% Rest of World 10% and 10% come from qualifiers. Usually the host country pick up any withdrawal spots.
This means the USA got seven or eight spots. Van Boening, Sossei, Morris, Lombardo, Deuel, Wilkie and Dominguez all took up the BCA invitation to attend. Brandon Shuff wanted to play but when the BCA asked for an extra spot for him they found that the field was full.
The US/BCA quota is set so low because historically the players have not attended WPA events as they have this one. If this trend continues then you may see more places available in future.
So Bergmann, Hall, Schmidt would not have been eligible to play without qualifying.
Most seeded/qualied player will tell you that winning a qualifying spot is harder than winning the event outright.