New Respect For Snooker Players.
- Thread starter mnorwood
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raybo147 said:
because in ten ball you need a big break. and it's a longer game so the best player wins. i'm not having a go at the snooker players who play pool, fair play to them. but there is a world of difference between winning a few races to six nine ball with a table that makes the same ball every time on the break, and playing a race to 50 ten ball.
all i am saying is this format would give the pool player time to actually use his full range of skills. the same principle could apply to snooker. imagine if matches were first to two! the best player would often not win!
smashmouth said:
Was it Rex Williams? Ha Ha
Let's do the math.
A snooker frame has 36 possible balls, equivalent to 4 racks of 9-ball
9-ball in a race to eleven, possible 21 racks, possible total balls potted 189
Snooker eliminations may be a race to 5 of 9, possible 324 balls
IIRC the World 9-ball Championship final was a a race to 17, possible 33 racks with a possible 297 balls
Snooker finals in the UK Championship were best of 31 frames, possible 1116 balls potted, played over several days.
Winning at snooker requires more points scored in a frame than opponent.
Winning a 9-ball rack requires the nine down
In snooker the best player rarely loses.
As for shooting talent, in one match I saw on youtube in the past year or so, one player made nearly 400 consecutive points, this is with alternating breaks.
A snooker frame has 36 possible balls, equivalent to 4 racks of 9-ball
9-ball in a race to eleven, possible 21 racks, possible total balls potted 189
Snooker eliminations may be a race to 5 of 9, possible 324 balls
IIRC the World 9-ball Championship final was a a race to 17, possible 33 racks with a possible 297 balls
Snooker finals in the UK Championship were best of 31 frames, possible 1116 balls potted, played over several days.
Winning at snooker requires more points scored in a frame than opponent.
Winning a 9-ball rack requires the nine down
In snooker the best player rarely loses.
As for shooting talent, in one match I saw on youtube in the past year or so, one player made nearly 400 consecutive points, this is with alternating breaks.
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I like this thread, so I'm going to chime in with my two cents (and that's exactly what it's worth).
I have witnessed the best players at all three games for quite a while now, and have come to this conclusion. And I'm not going to go into specific reasons why I feel this way. Remember it is just my opinion.
Among the cue sports, Three Cushion Billiards is the most difficult to master. Snooker is second and Pool is third. Sorry if I offended anyone but that's my observation.
That being said, I have yet to see ANY player who is a champion at one discipline, switch to another and excell! And I'm leaving Allison and Karen out of this because they have not excelled against the best players (just the best women players) at either of their chosen disciplines. They're still pretty damn good in my book.
Yes, it's true, some former snooker players have become very good pool players, most notably John Horsfall from Canada, Steve Davis and Tony Drago. But champions, they are not. Same goes for top pool players who attempted Snooker. Jim Rempe and Steve Mizerak come to mind.
Now there is one man who actually did cross over and become a champion at more than one cue sport. Do any of you know who that is? I'll let you guess for a while. I'm sure Terry knows. So you don't get to guess. And this man may have been the one American guy who could have gone overseas and played high level snooker too. If he had so chosen. He was truly unique, kind of the Jim Thorpe of cue games.
I have witnessed the best players at all three games for quite a while now, and have come to this conclusion. And I'm not going to go into specific reasons why I feel this way. Remember it is just my opinion.
Among the cue sports, Three Cushion Billiards is the most difficult to master. Snooker is second and Pool is third. Sorry if I offended anyone but that's my observation.
That being said, I have yet to see ANY player who is a champion at one discipline, switch to another and excell! And I'm leaving Allison and Karen out of this because they have not excelled against the best players (just the best women players) at either of their chosen disciplines. They're still pretty damn good in my book.
Yes, it's true, some former snooker players have become very good pool players, most notably John Horsfall from Canada, Steve Davis and Tony Drago. But champions, they are not. Same goes for top pool players who attempted Snooker. Jim Rempe and Steve Mizerak come to mind.
Now there is one man who actually did cross over and become a champion at more than one cue sport. Do any of you know who that is? I'll let you guess for a while. I'm sure Terry knows. So you don't get to guess. And this man may have been the one American guy who could have gone overseas and played high level snooker too. If he had so chosen. He was truly unique, kind of the Jim Thorpe of cue games.
I think you're leaving out de Oro. There was one other person of about that era who won both carom and pool titles. I forget his name right now, but he was recently profiled by Mike Shamos in BD.jay helfert said:
Jay,
I would say you are referring to either De Oro, as Bob said, or....
Cowboy Jimmy Moore?
Possibly ... Crap, I can't remember this last person's name. The guy who won the National 3 Cushion title, and also won Johnston City tournaments. He died fairly young. There was a picture of him in one of the Eddie Robins books. It'll come to me.
Russ
I would say you are referring to either De Oro, as Bob said, or....
Cowboy Jimmy Moore?
Possibly ... Crap, I can't remember this last person's name. The guy who won the National 3 Cushion title, and also won Johnston City tournaments. He died fairly young. There was a picture of him in one of the Eddie Robins books. It'll come to me.
Russ
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Bob Jewett said:
As usual, you're correct Bob. But I'm thinking of someone a little more recent then him.
P.S. I heard you had a rare silver dollar for sale to the highest bidder.
Russ Chewning said:
You're getting warm!
jay helfert said:
Harold Worst is who I am thinking of. I am sorry to say, I could not remember on my own. I googled "3-Cushion", "Johnston City", and "One Pocket".
They say he was crushing the tournaments when he died, and that not too many wanted to play him in ANY game.
I know you can't be talking about Shorty, as his height disadvantage would almost HAVE to prevent him from being a top TOP snooker player.
Russ
I think you make a very good point, but I think snooker players are very good at being consistent over long matches and I don't think having a good break is exclusive to pool players. The best player wins is one of the best parts about snooker and if it was that way in 9-ball I think it would be a much purer game. I have played in regional tournaments where I was only worried about getting a shot after the break. When I played snooker I only had to play smart and wait for my chance. I have the greatest respect for pool players and their ability to play for hours without making any big mistakes, but snooker players can do that too.worriedbeef said:
Jay I would love to know who you are talking about because I haven't got a clue, but you left out a few snooker players who made the switch. Peach played full time snooker for at least 10 years(he was playing back when I was in England playing 1990-92), Marlon Manalo also played snooker full time for about 10 years before switching to pool around 2003. Also Mika Immonen spent quite a few years as a snooker player before taking up pool. It is true that none of these guys were champions but the problem is that if you were at the top level playing snooker, why would you change to pool? Mizerak didn't really try to play pro snooker, he just came over for a vacation and entered the qualifiers.jay helfert said:
Not saying any of the following has any huge significance to this debate but will just mention these things for some added perspective.
Most (obviously not all) top snooker players are from Uk. As far as Uk goes we must first remember that "American" style pool using your balls/tables, especially 9 ball pool, isn't even a tiny little blip on the cue sport radar there. This makes the fact that they have produced a 9 ball World Champion even more remarkable. There are more regular 9 ball pool players in any one medium sized USA city than in the entire UK country. The ability and potential of top Uk snooker players at 9 ball is in fact only very rarely tested.
At least 90%+ of all regular pool players in Uk play only 8 ball pool on uk style equipment usually 7ft x 4ft tables resembling mini snooker tables, with snooker style cut of the pockets though proportionately slightly more generous than snooker tables and small red/yellow balls. They play to a completely different rule code than 8 ball pool in USA.
Snooker is still by far the most popular cue sport in uk.
Against this background, stretching back over many years, several established UK snooker stars have (sometimes in a possibly rather half hearted fashion admittedly) taken part in 8 ball competitions or challenge matches on uk style pool tables against top uk stlye 8 ball pool champions. With one very recent exception they have all usually been badly trounced at 8 ball by the pool players. This includes Steve Davis whilst in his snooker prime.
The recent exception is Mark Selby who was defeated in the final of snooker's World Championship and who won the Uk style 8 ball Pool World Championship. However other than Mark Selby there isn't a single current uk style "pool player" who would have a cat in hell's chance of making it into the top 16 world rankings of snooker, although there are one or two such as Tom Ford who may make it into the top 32.
Uk style pool and snooker are world's apart in the necesary skills etc. Therefore given that uk style pool is much closer equipment wise to snooker than 9 ball pool on American equipment you can safely say that 9 ball pool and snooker are on different planets in those respects and any comparison of the requisite skill/ability levels necessary to dominate in one over the other is highly speculative. There is a lot to be said for the common argument that all games are equally difficult to play.
Most (obviously not all) top snooker players are from Uk. As far as Uk goes we must first remember that "American" style pool using your balls/tables, especially 9 ball pool, isn't even a tiny little blip on the cue sport radar there. This makes the fact that they have produced a 9 ball World Champion even more remarkable. There are more regular 9 ball pool players in any one medium sized USA city than in the entire UK country. The ability and potential of top Uk snooker players at 9 ball is in fact only very rarely tested.
At least 90%+ of all regular pool players in Uk play only 8 ball pool on uk style equipment usually 7ft x 4ft tables resembling mini snooker tables, with snooker style cut of the pockets though proportionately slightly more generous than snooker tables and small red/yellow balls. They play to a completely different rule code than 8 ball pool in USA.
Snooker is still by far the most popular cue sport in uk.
Against this background, stretching back over many years, several established UK snooker stars have (sometimes in a possibly rather half hearted fashion admittedly) taken part in 8 ball competitions or challenge matches on uk style pool tables against top uk stlye 8 ball pool champions. With one very recent exception they have all usually been badly trounced at 8 ball by the pool players. This includes Steve Davis whilst in his snooker prime.
The recent exception is Mark Selby who was defeated in the final of snooker's World Championship and who won the Uk style 8 ball Pool World Championship. However other than Mark Selby there isn't a single current uk style "pool player" who would have a cat in hell's chance of making it into the top 16 world rankings of snooker, although there are one or two such as Tom Ford who may make it into the top 32.
Uk style pool and snooker are world's apart in the necesary skills etc. Therefore given that uk style pool is much closer equipment wise to snooker than 9 ball pool on American equipment you can safely say that 9 ball pool and snooker are on different planets in those respects and any comparison of the requisite skill/ability levels necessary to dominate in one over the other is highly speculative. There is a lot to be said for the common argument that all games are equally difficult to play.
There is a good way to solve this at a forum level. I consider myself a snooker player who can play decent pool. What if somebody on here plays me 10 games of snooker and 10 games of 9-ball or 10-ball the same night. We can do this at Rackem up in Frazer PA or at Drexeline if Bob hasn't gotten rid of the snooker table yet. I am not a big Bartrum style gambler but I like my odds in this match-up. If you are a pro that is ok too. Probably nothing will come from this so I might try again when all you azb guys are in town for the Expo in March.
pool verse snooker challenge
there is no comparison between pool and snooker
at pool you dont need anywhere near the skill or training time that you need at snooker, at pool you definatly need to think alot more ie tactics and diferrent options where is at snooker it is usually obvious pot or safety. efren or earl etc could never make it anywhere near the top at snooker they could have 10 years to practise it wont happen.
the reason why snooker players have not done better at pool is because they dont need to yes a few do turn up and play for fun like ronnie osullivan jimmy white, mark williams etc but they did what i did years back maybe play 1 day before and go for a laugh with a snooker cue. if there was no money in snooker and the top 100 snooker players all started playing pool then after 4 months they would rearrange the pool rankings in a massive way. the only snooker players that play american pool more than once in a blue moon is steve davis and tony drago and they are more than a match anyone, i think daryl peach was a snooker pro from way back
personally i think they top 10 ish snooker players are so one dimensional or mentally so focosed and trained for snooker that you would get better american pool players from snooker players ranked a little bit back from anywhere from 300 upto 10 in the rankings would make the transition very easily if they wanted to. but there is not point as the money is not there
i have not hit one snooker ball in i think 3 years and only played pool for a week before 2 ipt comps but i will dust of my cue and put up $100,000 of my own money or more and play anyone in the pool world efren earl shane whoever, a snooker match and an 8 ball match if we win one game each then call it a draw, at least people will get to watch a good match.
maybe first to 50 or 100 games at 8-ball and maybe 10 or 15 games at snooker etc on a real 12 foot riley snooker table and equivilant pool table if any top player wants this ill play for at least this amount or alot more depending on location etc
my name is Quinten Hann any pool player wants some of this just reply.
before i get totally slated here i dont play anymore at all and am not interested in any other challenge match its not worth my time.
so dont bother asking to play me 10ball or 14-1 as i have never played these games. matter of fact i dont play anymore full stop but will come out of retirement for a snooker verse pool challenge, as i do miss playing a little bit.
there is no comparison between pool and snooker
at pool you dont need anywhere near the skill or training time that you need at snooker, at pool you definatly need to think alot more ie tactics and diferrent options where is at snooker it is usually obvious pot or safety. efren or earl etc could never make it anywhere near the top at snooker they could have 10 years to practise it wont happen.
the reason why snooker players have not done better at pool is because they dont need to yes a few do turn up and play for fun like ronnie osullivan jimmy white, mark williams etc but they did what i did years back maybe play 1 day before and go for a laugh with a snooker cue. if there was no money in snooker and the top 100 snooker players all started playing pool then after 4 months they would rearrange the pool rankings in a massive way. the only snooker players that play american pool more than once in a blue moon is steve davis and tony drago and they are more than a match anyone, i think daryl peach was a snooker pro from way back
personally i think they top 10 ish snooker players are so one dimensional or mentally so focosed and trained for snooker that you would get better american pool players from snooker players ranked a little bit back from anywhere from 300 upto 10 in the rankings would make the transition very easily if they wanted to. but there is not point as the money is not there
i have not hit one snooker ball in i think 3 years and only played pool for a week before 2 ipt comps but i will dust of my cue and put up $100,000 of my own money or more and play anyone in the pool world efren earl shane whoever, a snooker match and an 8 ball match if we win one game each then call it a draw, at least people will get to watch a good match.
maybe first to 50 or 100 games at 8-ball and maybe 10 or 15 games at snooker etc on a real 12 foot riley snooker table and equivilant pool table if any top player wants this ill play for at least this amount or alot more depending on location etc
my name is Quinten Hann any pool player wants some of this just reply.
before i get totally slated here i dont play anymore at all and am not interested in any other challenge match its not worth my time.
so dont bother asking to play me 10ball or 14-1 as i have never played these games. matter of fact i dont play anymore full stop but will come out of retirement for a snooker verse pool challenge, as i do miss playing a little bit.
If I'm ever up there I will be glad to match up with you..
I'll take that game if I am ever in town... I don't play snooker much, but I quite regularly take the skill balls out on a snooker table and play nineball, eightball and rotation.. My highest break in snooker was 72, but I've come one shot from running a rack of rotation before and I've ran out in nineball from the two..
And I can count the number of times I've tried to play snooker on one hand.
raybo147 said:
I'll take that game if I am ever in town... I don't play snooker much, but I quite regularly take the skill balls out on a snooker table and play nineball, eightball and rotation.. My highest break in snooker was 72, but I've come one shot from running a rack of rotation before and I've ran out in nineball from the two..
And I can count the number of times I've tried to play snooker on one hand.
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p.s
before everyone starts hammering me i would just like to point out that i think efren, earl and other pool players are great players and i have alot of respect for them making it to the top of there fields but the games are very different thats all
before everyone starts hammering me i would just like to point out that i think efren, earl and other pool players are great players and i have alot of respect for them making it to the top of there fields but the games are very different thats all
raybo147 said:
I would call Mika and Manalo champions. They both play at the highest level in Pool. How well they played Snooker I don't know. Peach must have started out quite young in Snooker.
You make a good point. Why would a Snooker champion take a pay cut to play Pool? Only Steve Davis seriously went after major titles in both.
chamillionare said:
Q man, you did play a mean game as I recall. And didn't I see you at a couple of the WPC in Cardiff? Uh huh, that was you. I mostly agree with you, but differ on your statement that the top Snooker players could change over to Pool and dominate. All I have to say about that is, No Way Jose! You more than some, should know it isn't that easy to learn how to control that big cue ball. The games are very different!
Ronnie O'Sullivan is supposed to be the most talented man in Snooker today. He is supposed to be the one man who could be a winner at both cue sports. I'd like to see him practice a few months and play in the WPC or U.S. Open. Good luck to him is all I have to say. As much as I respect the top Snooker player's ability, none of them would have a prayer playing the most difficult Pool games with top Pool players. I'm talking about Straight Pool and One Pocket. They could practice every day for a year and Efren would still have to spot them... a lot!
Russ Chewning said:
Ding ding, we have a winner! Harold Worst may have been one of the most talented men ever to hold a cue in his hands. He could play any game and master it in a relatively short period. He won the World Three Cushion championship at the tender age of 24. On hostile territory I might add.
When there were no more challenges there, he moved on to Pool, and became one of the best players within three years. I saw him play Cornbread in the finals of the National Snooker Championship in Detroit in 1963. Red was maybe the best in the USA after Sammy Blumenthal. Harold had only played a few games of Snooker and he reached the finals and made a tough opponent for Red. Jimmy Moore finished third, behind Harold.
If he had wanted to play in the UK, I would have bet on him after three years over there. Like I said, he was unique. His learning curve was very short. He loved a challenge and he wouldn't have quit until he beat Joe and Fred Davis. That's the kind of guy he was!