Well said.
no backpause= more english
- Thread starter Slh
- Start date
Well said.
I'm surprised buddy has not been mentioned, Buddy, too. Also, Cisero Murphy!, also!
The thing about that 'pitchers pause' is that while the baseball may not be moving for a split second, his body is in motion. It works from the ground up, the leg is raised, the stride is made, etc. The ball is put into position all while the body is moving into postion & then it is delivered. The same can be said for the hitter. The body is coiled, a stride is made, the hands move toward the ball all before the bat is 'relased'. A quarterback does not take the ball to the foward delivery position & then pause for a second before throwing the ball. It is out of both hands & gone.
I agree with you that what ever is best for an individual is best for that person, but that does not mean that a certain set of boimechanics would be not be better over another set of biomechanics.
Regards,
Last edited:
I have a theory that disagrees with that a lil. I think practice swings are really about alignment, not speed. You are testing to see if your actual arm swing is going I'm the desired direction, because a still cue stick doesn't really tell you.
They're almost never as fast as the final stroke. Some are very measured and they're almost always shorter.
So by doing a pause you're not throwing away any info gained by the practice swings, and it's not the same as one stroking it, because your practice swings told you that your stroke is going to go where you're pointing. One stroke poke would not tell you.
Posted from Azbilliards.com App for Android
A Hall of Fame (Mike Sigel) champion's beautiful "micro" pause
I’ve always admired and tried to emulate the fluid mechanical elements of Mike Sigel’s stroke that almost always includes a brief “micro” pause before delivery:
-- 2 or 3 *very* short, aim-rehearsal back & forth cue gliding movements
-- an extremely deliberate, slow backswing (way back to the flesh of his bridge hand when power or heavily-englished travel is needed)
-- that barely perceptible (only about a second-long) transitional pause, then the long cumulatively accelerating forward delivery stroke with an ultra-long follow through when table space or nearby obstruction permits
Here below is a video-clip example of his beautiful and deadly accurate/efficient and highly-seasoned stroke at age 37 (which won him an historic, more than 100 professional 9-ball and 14.1 tournaments -- the most won by any professional of the twentieth century (and he was named one of the 5 best players of that century).
The video quality is awful, but it’s nonetheless a very instructive quick look at Sigel's silky, near-perfect stroking. It’s a 2-minute clip that includes several types of shots and is -- to me anyway -- especially worth watching a few times to study the elements of his stroke:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cPxTTuKvP0
Arnaldo
I’ve always admired and tried to emulate the fluid mechanical elements of Mike Sigel’s stroke that almost always includes a brief “micro” pause before delivery:
-- 2 or 3 *very* short, aim-rehearsal back & forth cue gliding movements
-- an extremely deliberate, slow backswing (way back to the flesh of his bridge hand when power or heavily-englished travel is needed)
-- that barely perceptible (only about a second-long) transitional pause, then the long cumulatively accelerating forward delivery stroke with an ultra-long follow through when table space or nearby obstruction permits
Here below is a video-clip example of his beautiful and deadly accurate/efficient and highly-seasoned stroke at age 37 (which won him an historic, more than 100 professional 9-ball and 14.1 tournaments -- the most won by any professional of the twentieth century (and he was named one of the 5 best players of that century).
The video quality is awful, but it’s nonetheless a very instructive quick look at Sigel's silky, near-perfect stroking. It’s a 2-minute clip that includes several types of shots and is -- to me anyway -- especially worth watching a few times to study the elements of his stroke:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cPxTTuKvP0
Arnaldo
Exactly. For every pro that does it one way you can find another that does it different.
Everyone is wired differently and everyone is going to get their bestest results by doing what produces the results they want as manifested by the reaction of the balls on the table. If pausing makes the balls well behaved, do it. It no pause makes them obey your every whim, do that.
But for God's sake don't go and watch a DVD and listen to some guy tell you you have to do it exactly this way or that, because they are not you shooting with your wetware, your eyes, your body, your hand-eye coordination, depth perception, or ability to work with spatial relationships.
Find your own path. What's that you say? How do I find out what's best?
That is the hard part and that is why no one becomes good at this game without time, dedication, and doing the reps. And, if you just go with what one of the gurus is telling you, frankly, you may end up with some short term improvement simply because you have introduced some elements of consistency and attention to your game, but you may be (probably) ultimately crippling your game for life.
Lou Figueroa
I don't pause, but in the case of Alison Fisher, the pause seems to be long enough for her eyes to move to the object ball and, presumably, focus.
As for your second question, it is by having nearly constant acceleration around the time the stick reaches the extreme back position, but it is certainly not the sort of thing I want to be thinking about when I'm playing.
I consider a pause to be a pause only if both the velocity and acceleration of the cue stick go to zero at the same time and the stick remains stationary for a non-zero length of time. In previous conversations, other people have stated other criteria, but this is about the only definition that makes physical sense.
The pause increases stroke effectiveness AND maximizes potential for touch and feel
Buddy Hall is a perfect example why this "pause" is worth examining. Buddy had the best cue speed control (that produced exceptional cue ball control) in the game and still has not been paralleled. imo
There must be a transition period between drawing the cue back and {then} delivering it forward. Whether it's obvious or not there is a "micro pause" at this point and it is when the feel for the stroke is at it's highth......the moment of "no return". This can be accentuated or it can go unnoticed as something errelivant to the upcoming shot.
I believe (and Buddy will probably agree) that this is when you have a chance to FULLY feel the pool cue's true weight, and can FULLY connect to your potential Touch.
We all have basically the same amount of touch and feel. The key is expanding and maximizing this to play as close to your potential as possible. I have found several ways to do this in my research and teaching of the Game.
This transition point is one of those ways, and I like to practice by amplifying this as much as possible to feel the cue completely stop before going forward. Which gives me the feeling of 100% of my energy is bringing the cue forward and NONE is wasted in the transferring process.
This does increase my stroke's effectiveness AND maximizes potential for touch and feeling for each shot (by producing extra control of "pool cue speed"). 'The Game is the Teacher'
Buddy Hall is a perfect example why this "pause" is worth examining. Buddy had the best cue speed control (that produced exceptional cue ball control) in the game and still has not been paralleled. imo
There must be a transition period between drawing the cue back and {then} delivering it forward. Whether it's obvious or not there is a "micro pause" at this point and it is when the feel for the stroke is at it's highth......the moment of "no return". This can be accentuated or it can go unnoticed as something errelivant to the upcoming shot.
I believe (and Buddy will probably agree) that this is when you have a chance to FULLY feel the pool cue's true weight, and can FULLY connect to your potential Touch.
We all have basically the same amount of touch and feel. The key is expanding and maximizing this to play as close to your potential as possible. I have found several ways to do this in my research and teaching of the Game.
This transition point is one of those ways, and I like to practice by amplifying this as much as possible to feel the cue completely stop before going forward. Which gives me the feeling of 100% of my energy is bringing the cue forward and NONE is wasted in the transferring process.
This does increase my stroke's effectiveness AND maximizes potential for touch and feeling for each shot (by producing extra control of "pool cue speed"). 'The Game is the Teacher'
I like your definition Bob, particularly the "Non-zero" length of time. I believe many people feel that SPF requires a particularly long pause at the end of the back swing. In the case of Allison and Buddy you see this. In others the pause is very short in comparison.
FWIW, when I took the class four or five years ago (Randy G. instructor), he made it plain as day to the students that the pause can vary from person-to-person, that there was not a "must pause for this amount of time" demand for the "P" in SPF.
Maniac
another opinion
I struggled with this question for years; so very interested in reading everyone's comments in this thread. Thanks all.
A veteran player once explained his reason for NO pause at the end of the last backstroke: you need to develop a rhythm, or tempo, during warm-up strokes, and continue that into the shot stroke; in other words, it's not helpful to change the tempo for the last stroke because it changes everything about the stroke including muscular actions. Others here have made this point in various ways.
I'm still unsure which is best, though.
A consistent pre-shot routine, whatever it is, seems best... even if that routine includes the "pause".
RL
I struggled with this question for years; so very interested in reading everyone's comments in this thread. Thanks all.
A veteran player once explained his reason for NO pause at the end of the last backstroke: you need to develop a rhythm, or tempo, during warm-up strokes, and continue that into the shot stroke; in other words, it's not helpful to change the tempo for the last stroke because it changes everything about the stroke including muscular actions. Others here have made this point in various ways.
I'm still unsure which is best, though.
A consistent pre-shot routine, whatever it is, seems best... even if that routine includes the "pause".
RL
my biggest break though's always happened outside my "comfort zone" doing things....
You see this "pause" in the golf swing as well at the transition point between back swing and down swing. I've often heard of it as "the gathering of the shot" and it's good to practice exaggerating these types of techniques to expand the overall index of experiences. How else can we ever expect to increase "touch and feel"? Ironically it comes with a certain amount of discomfort....my biggest break though's always happened outside my "comfort zone" doing things I didn't particularly want to do.
I like doing a "no practice stroke" drill that was recommended to me long ago by a champion player. I played my best pool after doing this drill for 3 straight hours. I actually played for over 20 hours and only missed 4 balls that I was trying to make. This was due to my amplified touch from doing the "no practice stoke" drill and that drill also forces me get down on the cue ball more precisely which is a very important factor.
The suggestion I will offer is to experiment if you're not happy with your game, it won't get better by doing the same things you're doing now. There are many levels to pocket billiards, I think of them as "layers".....a "7 Layer Cake" is probably the best description, just remember the enjoyment you get out of it will always be 'the icing on the cake" no matter how you play. 'The Game is the Teacher'
You see this "pause" in the golf swing as well at the transition point between back swing and down swing. I've often heard of it as "the gathering of the shot" and it's good to practice exaggerating these types of techniques to expand the overall index of experiences. How else can we ever expect to increase "touch and feel"? Ironically it comes with a certain amount of discomfort....my biggest break though's always happened outside my "comfort zone" doing things I didn't particularly want to do.
I like doing a "no practice stroke" drill that was recommended to me long ago by a champion player. I played my best pool after doing this drill for 3 straight hours. I actually played for over 20 hours and only missed 4 balls that I was trying to make. This was due to my amplified touch from doing the "no practice stoke" drill and that drill also forces me get down on the cue ball more precisely which is a very important factor.
The suggestion I will offer is to experiment if you're not happy with your game, it won't get better by doing the same things you're doing now. There are many levels to pocket billiards, I think of them as "layers".....a "7 Layer Cake" is probably the best description, just remember the enjoyment you get out of it will always be 'the icing on the cake" no matter how you play. 'The Game is the Teacher'
What your mind is doing
Great point in few words.
There's nothing wrong with a backpause, depending on what is going through your mind in that extra time, if it's good .. then good, if it is uncertainty, then pause less.
Great point in few words.
You are correct that it is BS. Where you strike the cb and at what speed you strike it determines the english applied.
Grip- has nothing at all to do with the action on the cb. It can have a lot to do with how accurately you strike the cb.
Follow-through- again, has nothing to do with the cb, the cb is already gone before the followthrough even begins. How can it affect the shot? It can't. However, again, it can have a lot to do with the accuracy of the hit on the cb. Few can accurately hit the cb and stop the cue immediately without going off line. So, the follow through is just a result of not stopping the cue after the initial hit.
Backpause- again, has nothing to do with the action on the cb. In fact, if you are pausing just because someone said it is a good thing to incorporate into your game, there is a very good chance it won't do anything. Pausing at the back of the stroke can be a good thing for most. But, there has to be a purpose to it for it to mean anything.
Now, the question you have to ask, is do you really want to learn from this person?? He plays real well, but doesn't really know what he is talking about. Some things he says may really help you, other things are going to hurt you. How do YOU tell the difference between the two? Do you just look at his record, and assume he must know what he is talking about? If so, good luck with that. Or do you take the time to learn what does what and why it does it, and then find ways to incorporate that into your game? Choice is yours. Either way, requires a lot of time on the table. What's the best use of your time?
How did we go from whether or not to pause at the end of the backstroke to trying to define pause?
If someone makes 3 consecutive 'practice' or 'warm up' or 'alignment defining' strokes & then hits the ball without any change between the last 'non real' stroke & the one that hits the ball, has a pause been made?
As has been pointed out, a change of direction has been made & therefore the backward movement had to have come to a stop for at least an instant before moving in the opposite forward delivery direction. Does that consitute a pause long enough to statisfy the definition of pause in the SPF meaning?
I think what we are really talking about is whether one should stroke in a free flowing natural way or a contrived mechanical manner with in certain parameters & is there perhaps a middle ground that might offer the benefits of both if there are benefits to both.
Some say treat every shot as though it is the same. While that may have merit from a phycological standpoint, I think it is simply reinforcing a falsehood. Every shot is not the same. Why do people including pros take more time on certain shots than others. The answer is obviously because there are different considerations for each shot. Every shot does not reguire the same stroke & to give a certain shot the same stroke as all others would be a mistake IMHO.
Even in golf where there are 14 different clubs with which one can hit the ball there are different swings that can & must be made with nearly everyone in order to get the desired result. A full wedge may go 100 yards for a player but he has a 75 yard shot. He has to hit a 3/4 wedge shot. A full swing at a slower speed does not work very well where consistency is concerned. It usually works much better to make a normal type swing with normal acelleration with only a 3/4 back swing. As in other sports, the shot, the throw, the hit or whatever it is starts at the begining of the movement & does not end at impact as all have what is generally referred to as a follow through. The 'follow through' is the result of the actions that ocurred before impact. So...hitting with a nearly undefinable pause & a definite pause of easily measurable length is not the same.
Sorry for the ramble that may seem a bit off topic. But is it really? I think we all would agree that if one were to take say 3 to 5 'practice strokes' & then take the cue back & 'pause' for 30 seconds before making the actual stroke to hit the ball, that that would not be a good idea. But it might be for a certain individual. Naturally I'm exaggerating to try to make a point. Which is at some point a 'pause' would become disadvantages. So the question becomes when? At what time length does it become mechanical & ruin the natural flow of the biomechanics?
What combination of bio & mechanics is best? Naturally the answer will be slightly different for each individual. Should we all play the exact same way? Should we become robots with no ability to assess the situation & change what we normally do to accomodate the situation. Do we want good mechanics or good biomechanics?
The change of direction dictates a pause for at least an instant. I would think for most people that 30 seconds would be too long. So... what is the appropriate window of time for a pause at the end of the back swing? 0 to 1 second. 1 to 3 seconds 1 to 5 seconds.
Is that what we are really 'talking' about now in this thread? I don't really think so. I think we have come to where we are now talking about whether or not it is advantages to employ a more biomechanically natural stroke or a more contrived mechanical stroke with set parameters.
The bottom line answer will be as it always is, it will be whatever is best for each individual. Like CJ said, but I'll paraphrase, if you're happy with what you are doing stay doing it, but if not then try something else or you will keep getting what you are getting that is making you unhappy.
I just hope we don't see too many 30 second pauses at the end of the back stroke.
So, I now think the question that has evolved from the initial question is... is it better to play more naturally or is better to play with in certain mechanical parameters. Or... is there a middle ground that combines benefits from both. Actually I think that is the original question in the broad scheme. If not, maybe this should be transferred to another thread. Or not.
Regards,
If someone makes 3 consecutive 'practice' or 'warm up' or 'alignment defining' strokes & then hits the ball without any change between the last 'non real' stroke & the one that hits the ball, has a pause been made?
As has been pointed out, a change of direction has been made & therefore the backward movement had to have come to a stop for at least an instant before moving in the opposite forward delivery direction. Does that consitute a pause long enough to statisfy the definition of pause in the SPF meaning?
I think what we are really talking about is whether one should stroke in a free flowing natural way or a contrived mechanical manner with in certain parameters & is there perhaps a middle ground that might offer the benefits of both if there are benefits to both.
Some say treat every shot as though it is the same. While that may have merit from a phycological standpoint, I think it is simply reinforcing a falsehood. Every shot is not the same. Why do people including pros take more time on certain shots than others. The answer is obviously because there are different considerations for each shot. Every shot does not reguire the same stroke & to give a certain shot the same stroke as all others would be a mistake IMHO.
Even in golf where there are 14 different clubs with which one can hit the ball there are different swings that can & must be made with nearly everyone in order to get the desired result. A full wedge may go 100 yards for a player but he has a 75 yard shot. He has to hit a 3/4 wedge shot. A full swing at a slower speed does not work very well where consistency is concerned. It usually works much better to make a normal type swing with normal acelleration with only a 3/4 back swing. As in other sports, the shot, the throw, the hit or whatever it is starts at the begining of the movement & does not end at impact as all have what is generally referred to as a follow through. The 'follow through' is the result of the actions that ocurred before impact. So...hitting with a nearly undefinable pause & a definite pause of easily measurable length is not the same.
Sorry for the ramble that may seem a bit off topic. But is it really? I think we all would agree that if one were to take say 3 to 5 'practice strokes' & then take the cue back & 'pause' for 30 seconds before making the actual stroke to hit the ball, that that would not be a good idea. But it might be for a certain individual. Naturally I'm exaggerating to try to make a point. Which is at some point a 'pause' would become disadvantages. So the question becomes when? At what time length does it become mechanical & ruin the natural flow of the biomechanics?
What combination of bio & mechanics is best? Naturally the answer will be slightly different for each individual. Should we all play the exact same way? Should we become robots with no ability to assess the situation & change what we normally do to accomodate the situation. Do we want good mechanics or good biomechanics?
The change of direction dictates a pause for at least an instant. I would think for most people that 30 seconds would be too long. So... what is the appropriate window of time for a pause at the end of the back swing? 0 to 1 second. 1 to 3 seconds 1 to 5 seconds.
Is that what we are really 'talking' about now in this thread? I don't really think so. I think we have come to where we are now talking about whether or not it is advantages to employ a more biomechanically natural stroke or a more contrived mechanical stroke with set parameters.
The bottom line answer will be as it always is, it will be whatever is best for each individual. Like CJ said, but I'll paraphrase, if you're happy with what you are doing stay doing it, but if not then try something else or you will keep getting what you are getting that is making you unhappy.
I just hope we don't see too many 30 second pauses at the end of the back stroke.
So, I now think the question that has evolved from the initial question is... is it better to play more naturally or is better to play with in certain mechanical parameters. Or... is there a middle ground that combines benefits from both. Actually I think that is the original question in the broad scheme. If not, maybe this should be transferred to another thread. Or not.
Regards,
Last edited: