No safeties in nine ball

Island Drive said:
So which of the great cue makers, were the first to make jump sticks?

I do remember the concern about them being banned.

I remember for years, the back/forth about yes and no, are jumpers legal should they be allowed.

I don't care, but ''for the Game/Sport''.... personally I'd still prefer seeing a great Efren kick safe than a great jump, missed shot rolling/luck safe.
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I honestly don't know of many "great cue makers" that even bother to make jump sticks.

A good jump stick is really nothing more than a shaft with an extremely light butt. Not much there for a cue maker to sink his teeth into.

Personally I enjoy watching good pool no matter what type of shot is played. A great kick, a great job, a great safety, etc...

Just as I enjoy seeing a phenomenal drive, or great bunker shot as well as a great putt when watching golf. It's all part of the game.

Interestingly, when the modern "sand wedge" was first developed by Gene Sarazen, some people lost their minds. Now it's an integral part of the game. I doubt that anybody thinks that it makes bunker shots "too easy" though…
 
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Texas3cushion said:
I don't see a reliable way of enforcing the rule.

What happens if you get safe by luck? Do you penalize him because you think he did it on purpose?
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Play with one simple rule;

The incoming player can always put their opponent back in if they don't like what they're left.

I think I'd like playing by those rules. You could still play half safeties... kind of like a pushout, but with a legal hit. Put them in a place where it is tempting to go for, but still a hard shot.
 
David in FL said:
The best thing jump shots have done is reduce the benefit for poorly played safeties. 😁
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Exactly. Jump cues make strong safety play a bit trickier, raising the bar for what's considered a solid safety.

Anyway, jump shots have always been legal, despite the fact that stand-alone jump cues are a more recent addition to pool equipment (last 30 years or so).

Does anyone know when minimum cue length was put into the rules?
 
David in FL said:
I'm not sure where you're getting your information but it's wrong.

Florida in particular has no such prohibition.

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Even if your "eight states" number was correct that still leaves 84% of the states where minors can play pool even if alcohol is served.
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I stand corrected. I just looked it up. Florida mandates that the minor has to be accompanied by a legal parent. SUPER useful distinction, considering a young player needs multiple days a week, of multiple hours practice, to get any good at this game. And they need other young players to battle against. Which means that all is good for young players in Florida, as long as each area has a good 10-20 parents willing to sit in pool halls with their kids...

So scratch Florida off the list. It's got laws super friendly to building a base of young pool players!
 
David in FL said:
Nope. Sorry, but you're wrong.

Back in the day, people learned to jump with a simple wooden dowel or just a shaft with no butt as an improvement over using an actual play cue.

Actual dedicated jump cues evolved from those early work arounds...
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Yes, that's basically right.

According to billiards historian and late, great AZB poster Hemicudas, the first time somebody tried jumping with a short cue in a pool tournament, it was a bumper pool cue, and the man that executed the shot was Marcus Collier, legend of that discipline. That was more than 50 years ago.

The shaft-only jump was a novelty that arose because the rules didn't allow you to carry more than two cues into the playing arena, and most chose to carry a player and a break cue. The shaft-only jump looked ridiculous. Once the rule was changed to permit carrying three cues in pro events, it was another rule that greatly accelerated development of the jump cue. It was called the forty inch rule and it said that no shot could be played with a stick/shaft that was less than forty inches long. This was when the jump cue as we know it today became more important and by 2000, most players carried one.
 
ShortBusRuss said:
I stand corrected. I just looked it up. Florida mandates that the minor has to be accompanied by a legal parent. SUPER useful distinction, considering a young player needs multiple days a week, of multiple hours practice, to get any good at this game. And they need other young players to battle against. Which means that all is good for young players in Florida, as long as each area has a good 10-20 parents willing to sit in pool halls with their kids...

So scratch Florida off the list. It's got laws super friendly to building a base of young pool players!
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No it doesn't.

I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but you can look at the link that I provided.

Regardless though, given that most kids get their introduction to pool through their parents interest, I wouldn't consider that to be a bad thing anyway.

For what it's worth, you can come in to my local room and usually find a handful of juniors practicing or playing. They are welcome and encouraged.

Florida is very proud of our junior players and do everything we can to support them. Just ask Sofia Mast...
 
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eastcoast_chris said:
Play with one simple rule;

The incoming player can always put their opponent back in if they don't like what they're left.

I think I'd like playing by those rules. You could still play half safeties... kind of like a pushout, but with a legal hit. Put them in a place where it is tempting to go for, but still a hard shot.
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So back to the two pushout rules that were used 40 years ago?
 
hang-the-9 said:
So back to the two pushout rules that were used 40 years ago?
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It's not clear what kind of ball in hand rule, if any, he is proposing. Ball in hand anywhere for any foul? Ball in hand only on a scratch and then behind the line?
 
hang-the-9 said:
So back to the two pushout rules that were used 40 years ago?
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No. No limit to how many times you can force your opponent to shoot again. But, while a great ring-game rule that prevent two hustlers in cahoots from hooking interceding suckers with ‘accidental’ safties, it occurs to be one way to leave your partner an unmissable shot though (likely too transparent to be safe).
 
Bob Jewett said:
It's not clear what kind of ball in hand rule, if any, he is proposing. Ball in hand anywhere for any foul? Ball in hand only on a scratch and then behind the line?
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I was not saying anything about ball in hand, just that you can put the opponent back in if you don't like what you're left.... every single time.

Basically like 10 ball call shot/call safe rules, but without the option to call safe. Totally changes the game, but I for one would enjoy it more.... I think.

P.S. It is sad that most people don't play (or even know of) 10 ball call shot/call safe rules. Such a better game that favors the more strategic player.
 
eastcoast_chris said:
P.S. It is sad that most people don't play (or even know of) 10 ball call shot/call safe rules. Such a better game that favors the more strategic player.
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I agree with you on this, but we are in a lopsided minority on it. Most people don't want to see the two-way shot go away. Many others believe that luck should play a part in all sports. I love the idea of a well played two-way shot myself, but I could sacrifice that shot for at least one, single discipline that eliminates almost ALL factors of luck. Why shouldn't it be 10-ball, right?
 
Brookeland Bill said:
And NO JUMP CUES. Jumpers are for pu$$ies.
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I don't like them either, but once again we seem to be in a lopsided minority.

I really dislike the jump cue when a seasoned professional player shoots a shot so badly that he/she hooks themselves and they run over to their chair for their security blanket (jump cue) to bail themselves out.

I might be okay for using a jump cue immediately after the break if the next player (be it the breaker or the incoming player) is hooked from the lowest numbered ball on the table and a decent pushout wasn't viable. Then again, I might not be.
 
I agree with Matt. Playing a successful safety against your opponent is so satisfying. And admiring one played against you is almost as satisfying. What I hate is playing against a hacker who slams the balls around the table trying to score the nine. I want play him if I can avoid him.
 
After watching people interject and interrupt the player I got the idea it might be fun to turn things so the opponent decides the ball and or the pocket, or the partner in doubles. any serious competition is then out the window but it might give some opportunity to try different shots that one would not normally attempt. It might make everyone laugh a bit if the shooter can't pick what he's shooting.
 
Just play the game. Safeties are part of the game. Jump cues are fine too. Even pros miss with them once in a while. Pros also triangulate 1-2-3 rails getting out of jams when jumping isn't a viable option, due to leaving the opponent a potential shot. So again, just play the game. There is no way to ever know if / when an opponent ducks on purpose when attempting to "accidentally" miss to play safe. So to save the arguments, just play, and play by the rules. ALL the rules. Just my .02 cents...
 
Maniac said:
I don't like them either, but once again we seem to be in a lopsided minority.

I really dislike the jump cue when a seasoned professional player shoots a shot so badly that he/she hooks themselves and they run over to their chair for their security blanket (jump cue) to bail themselves out.

I might be okay for using a jump cue immediately after the break if the next player (be it the breaker or the incoming player) is hooked from the lowest numbered ball on the table and a decent pushout wasn't viable. Then again, I might not be.
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My least favorite move by a player is when they shoot a leave and they just have to bend over look 👁👁 and see if they hooked their opponent. An unprofessional move along with the jump cue. Just go sit in your seat.
 
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