No way to treat a Customer ..

[LoGiC]

I never once said anybody can do no wrong. My point was that you are hardly qualified to critique Bender or any other master veteran builder, or their techniques. Study them all you wish, but to begin critiquing in public is wrong. If Bender or any veteran builder uses faulty methods, who are you to point it out & make the decision that these methods are wrong? One wobbly cue report is all it took for you to begin ranting on in-depth cue making methodology & criticizing our veteran builders. They have built & earned their reputation through years of consistently making customers happy. When you have become a veteran builder, and have a couple thousand cues under your belt, and have so few unsatisfied customers as Bender, then we can talk about how you are worthy of passing judgement. Until then, it's not your place.

This topic is about a customer who had a bad experience with a builder & felt the need to publicly vent, even before the transaction had come to a close. Right or wrong as he may be, it's the subject of the thread & that is what should be discussed. Discussing building techniques is for the cuemaker forum. Discussing a man's integrity should be a private matter & should be done only by those who know him on a close personal level. But this thread is a man venting his frustrations, and is not an open invitation to begin thrashing on our veteran builders.

I apologise to any I offend. That's not my intentions. I just don't like seeing this kind of thing. Bender does not belong to AZ & does not even read it. When he finds out, he won't even care that people are bashing him. But it's still inappropriate.

I don't agree with how AZ automatically seems to jump on the accused without hearing both sides of the story, but like Eric said, Bender probably doesn't read AZ, and won't care what people post about him because people are still going to order from him.

Manwon, just out of curiosity, if these flaws in the final product continue to happen, then why does the builder stick with that design? Obviously if Kersenbrocks, Omega DPKs, SWs, Benders, etc are all using this for their cues, there must be something good about it. Also, how does this parabolic taper become flawed in the progress of making a cue? I've never gotten to play with one of these cues as far as I know, so my curiosity has peaked.

 

[Poolshootindon]

I will keep in touch..

I have received a total of 3 emails from Mr Bender..First one was telling me where to ship the cue.

Second email was telling me there is nothing wrong with cue..

Third email was Mike asking me to give him my Fedex account # or send him a check for the return of the cue...

I set up a personel Fedex Account and sent him the account #..

On Friday March 7th i gave him the account #..I still have not received a reply from Mike..

Sunday March 9th i left a voice mail asking Mike to call...The ball is now in Mikes court.. Don

 

[ShootingArts]

Flaws

While there are almost certainly some flawed cues out there after the many years that they have been built, many of the "flawed cues" are a matter of perception rather than reality. I'd happily buy most of these "flawed cues" at discount if they let me spin them first. My bet is that not one in five is warped and if they aren't warped, odds are that A) the "flaw" won't affect play, and B) it is comparatively easily fixed.

They stick with the design because it has advantages in balance and feel, the same reason I use parabolic tapers on some of my shafts.

Hu

I don't agree with how AZ automatically seems to jump on the accused without hearing both sides of the story, but like Eric said, Bender probably doesn't read AZ, and won't care what people post about him because people are still going to order from him.

Manwon, just out of curiosity, if these flaws in the final product continue to happen, then why does the builder stick with that design? Obviously if Kersenbrocks, Omega DPKs, SWs, Benders, etc are all using this for their cues, there must be something good about it. Also, how does this parabolic taper become flawed in the progress of making a cue? I've never gotten to play with one of these cues as far as I know, so my curiosity has peaked.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Manwon, just out of curiosity, if these flaws in the final product continue to happen, then why does the builder stick with that design?
Because they want their cues to hit the way they want to.
Stiff.

 

[manwon]

I don't agree with how AZ automatically seems to jump on the accused without hearing both sides of the story, but like Eric said, Bender probably doesn't read AZ, and won't care what people post about him because people are still going to order from him.

Manwon, just out of curiosity, if these flaws in the final product continue to happen, then why does the builder stick with that design? Obviously if Kersenbrocks, Omega DPKs, SWs, Benders, etc are all using this for their cues, there must be something good about it. Also, how does this parabolic taper become flawed in the progress of making a cue? I've never gotten to play with one of these cues as far as I know, so my curiosity has peaked.

It is just like what Joey said in the following post after this one, and what he said in a previous post listed below:

Joey, first are you agreeing that some cues that have this taper do have this problem?
On parabolic tapered cues with wraps, yes.
The "problem" I think is when they cut the wrap groove or the buttcap, they may not be dead-on nuts or round for that matter. And/or when they hand sand the A-joint area where there is drastic change of angle from forearm to handle.
When you roll the butt on the table, since the joint is OFF the felt, it is magnified. Straight taper butts might have this problem too but you just don't see it as much b/c the forearm sinks to the felt.
But, how would those V-points be dead-on nuts if there is a wobble on the joint and pin? I think that would be impossible. So therefore that forearm, pin center and center of the hole at the bottom is dead on nuts. They have to be. Not saying they don't warp either.

So my question is simple, if some cues do not have the problem and some do, and all the cues in question are made by the same person on the same equipment, there must be another answer other than the equipment used.
That I can't answer. I have not seen their taper machine.
Now, I suspect that you use this taper on your cues, so please give me your prospective on why this happens. I suspect you have encountered it, and I also suspect that most likely more than me know what causes it.
I don't. I don't have a parabolic taper bar. Besides, if it's DPK's taper, I won't copy it out of respect.
I am also interested in how to solve this problem, and since you know that it occurs, I suspect you also know how to correct it or have some better idea's than I do.
I think ALL major cue dealers should have a turner. Two dead-on nuts live centers.Stick the butt in there and if the pin, A-joint area and buttsleeve do not wobble based THOSE CENTERS, the butt is not crooked.
NOW, if you have this turner, now it gets more fun b/c you can now also spin straight-taper butts and see if they really have no wobble .

I hope this helps answer your questions!!!

 

[masonh]

if the cue lifts at the joint a little when rolled,but rolls straight when the shaft is screwed on and spins true between centers,then there is no flaw.the cue is straight.it is perfection.

i am not a fan of rolling cues on a table to test for straightness.there are too many variables.if the cue spins true in a lathe,the ce is straight.it shouldn't matter if the joint is elevated slightly when it rolls across slate.

 

[Poolshootindon]

Got my cue back

I just got my cue back from Mr Bender...No emails or return calls from Mr Bender...Just shipped the cue back to me at my expense, which is right..But he did not even let me know he shipped the damn thing.

As many crooks as there are now days a heads up would have been nice....Now, is anyone interested in a $2500 cue (that is what Mr Bender insured it for)..

Dead nuts str8 according to Mr Bender...First $1600 takes it...

Thanks to all those who replied..


Thanks...Don Iverson

 

[Poolshootindon]

If someone knows Mr Bender

If anyone viewing this thread knows Mr Bender i would be interested in hearing his side of the story..

A few of you have bashed me, now lets hear Mr Benders take on this..

I am sure he is a very busy person...Aren't we all..But it would be nice if Mr Bender took a few minutes to explain his position on this issue..

ShootingArts..This is a very nice cue at a "discounted price" of $1600.. No need to spin the cue because Mr Bender has done that and says it is "dead nuts str8"..

Thanks again to all those who posted on this subject..

This will be my last post on this thread unless Mr Bender decides to give his side of the story... My guess is this is my "last" post...

Don Iverson

 

[ShootingArts]

send info if you like

ShootingArts..This is a very nice cue at a "discounted price" of $1600.. No need to spin the cue because Mr Bender has done that and says it is "dead nuts str8"..

Send details and pictures of the cue if you like. I will still spin it myself before making any commitments. That was the offer I made. I'm also a bit suspicious of your "discounted price" that you put in quotes. I can insure a cue for any amount to ship it, that doesn't indicate it's value however.

Hu

 

[Poolshootindon]

Discounted Price

Hu...The cue can be seen in wanted/forsale category... "Bender cue for Sale"

Like alot of cues on here some do increase in value.. I paid $2000 for the cue new in 2005..

Mr Bender just went over the cue and found nothing wrong with the cue at all.. When he returned the cue to me it was insured for $2500..Who is better to make a value judgement of a cue than the person who made the cue and just inspected it..

I am sure Mr Bender does not inflate the value of a cue for insurance purposes..

So as i see it this cue is discounted 36% from what Mr Bender says is the value and my asking price of $1600...

Thanks for the interest...Don Iverson

 

[fssgolf]

If I was in this situation, I would return the cue to Eric Lee. He is the one you bought the cue from. You are his customer. Let him deal with Bender. If a cuemaker treats his dealer's like you described, I doubt he would be held in such high regard. The dealer's don't need their reputation tainted by a unprofessional supplier.

 

[Poolshootindon]

Eric Lee???

At this time i am going to consider the situation resolved..

I got the cue back and many explantions as to why the cue has a lift in the joint from many of you AZer's... Seems to me the cue is str8 and in excellent condition..

What more could i ask for?

I do see your point in asking Eric to get involved..But I am just going to chalk it up to experience.. I have no hard feelings towards Eric Lee and see no reason to drag him into this. Don Iverson... PS..Maybe this will be my last post.... "-)

 

[ShootingArts]

since you asked

Don,

When I buy a fairly expensive cue for resale I spin it on my own metal lathe before purchase. My metal lathe can be set up to do work many times more precise than anything done to a pool cue. I can test if there is a problem and exactly where the problem is. Not that I distrust Mike Bender but I trust my own equipment, my own set-up, and my own eyes more than I trust any test on a cue stick that I didn't see.

To clear up the insurance thing, many people try to insure for a little extra to be sure that the cue is covered for actual current value and a little more so that they don't accidentally underinsure it. This isn't any effort to defraud, just an effort to have adequate insurance. However, insurance value is not based on how much insurance you bought but the value the insurance company determines the item to have. Fair? No, but you had better have pictures and a recent appraisal if you lose something with greater than original purchase value less depreciation.

Some carriers once stated that collector's value was not a consideration and third party insurance was recommended for such items. I don't ship collectors items so I don't keep up with how the carriers operate at the moment.

Hu

Hu...The cue can be seen in wanted/forsale category... "Bender cue for Sale"

Like alot of cues on here some do increase in value.. I paid $2000 for the cue new in 2005..

Mr Bender just went over the cue and found nothing wrong with the cue at all.. When he returned the cue to me it was insured for $2500..Who is better to make a value judgement of a cue than the person who made the cue and just inspected it..

I am sure Mr Bender does not inflate the value of a cue for insurance purposes..

So as i see it this cue is discounted 36% from what Mr Bender says is the value and my asking price of $1600...

Thanks for the interest...Don Iverson

 

[Poolshootindon]

Mr Bender where are you..

Just a reminder that I would like Mr Benders take on this matter.. I know I am just a one time customer and not a wheeler dealer..I would still like to understand how he feels about this cue. According to Mike it is dead str8.. So if someone knows Mr Bender please ask him to explain...

Is anyone interested in checking the cue out and giving me their opinon?

I would once again like to say Thank You to all of you who have replied...

This is a Great forum and we can all learn so much from the knowledge that is brought to this forum daily...


Thanks...Don Iverson

 

[Poolshootindon]

Just to let you know..

I received an email from Mr Bender on Friday March 21st..This is what it said..

Don,

I shipped your cue and then was out of town foe ten days, I hope the
cue arrived
safely.

-Mike

"I hope your cue arrived safely"? In my opinion Alaska is probably a good place for him..

Please no replies...Just my last rank on what has been a very unprofessional business dealing with Mr Bender..

 

[qbilder]

Just a reminder that I would like Mr Benders take on this matter.. I know I am just a one time customer and not a wheeler dealer..I would still like to understand how he feels about this cue. According to Mike it is dead str8.. So if someone knows Mr Bender please ask him to explain...

Is anyone interested in checking the cue out and giving me their opinon?

I would once again like to say Thank You to all of you who have replied...

This is a Great forum and we can all learn so much from the knowledge that is brought to this forum daily...


Thanks...Don Iverson

Mike is not a "kiss & tell" kinda guy, and likely wouldn't talk about the situation if asked. He undoubtedly hopes you are satisfied. But he undoubtedly also knows he cannot please them all, and can pass this off as one of the few he couldn't do anything for. But getting his opinion would likely be fruitless, especially for a public forum's sake where people are bickering & gossiping. If you want his opinion, call him & talk to him directly. Words written show distorted emotion & intentions. Speaking with him verbally will likely clear things up & you'll have a better understanding of his intentions & he WILL openly talk to you about your transaction & explain the details you desire. But for anybody else, he likely wouldn't talk. Even if he did, it would be heresay & gossip used to stir things up again. So if you want closure, you should call him yourself.

 

[Celtic]

Between Mike Bender's dealings with this situation and yours I would say he has been the far more level headed and reasonable. This attempt to destroy his reputation is unreal.

Did you buy the cue on the internet? If not when you bought it did you not hit with it with both shafts so you could see if one shaft had a clink like you mention? Did you not roll the butt without the shaft and look down the entire length of the cue to make sure it rolls true? Which you don't even have to do, with the cue in one piece you can tell if it rolls true by looking at the cue as it rolls at table level down it's entire length instead of simply looking at the tip and making sure it does not rise and fall like most people do.

You must have liked the cue when you bought it, now a sudden clink you notice long after you buy it and a joint your friend notices might not be dead straight long after you buy it and you expect Bender to rebuild a 3 year old cue that you seemed to like in the start.

Bender has shown way more class then you have in this thread for sure simply by not showing up on it and letting you do all the yammering.

 

[bob c]

This thread should have been titled, "No Way to Treat a Cuemaker."

 

[Poolshootindon]

Wow...

Amazing how some of you feel that Mr Bender has been such a professional in this matter... In my opinion he has been very unprofessional...

Some of you say he has.. Well i am on the other end and i am not happy with the attitude that i see as "dont question my cue building abilty just take what i say as fact".. Ever see that bumper sticker that says "Question Authority".. That is what i have done...But it appears to me he just doesn't care...

But maybe my standards are a little higher then most.. Since Mr Bender is considered one of the best cue builders in the world, why is it so difficult for him to deal with his customers?

So in closing all i can say is I hope none of you have to go through what I have...

Don Iverson

 

[Hunter]

My two cents on this matter...

In dealing with cuemakers, there seems to be an interesting phenomenon. We typically have one person trying to take care of several jobs functions that are normally not a "good fit".

I have been an Operations Manager for most of my career. I was the liason between a fabrication shop and the sales department that sells the products that were fabricated. This is a much harder task than most would think.

I had a shop boss who took his work very seriously and thought that the quality of what he did carried the company. I had a sales manager that thought that the company would go belly up no matter how great the product if the product never left the shelf. Both of them had a valid point, and neither were the type that could take care of the other's job. The shop boss couldn't have sold food to the starving, and the sales manager couldn't have turned on any of the machines in the shop. That's where I was called in to make sure that both efforts were balanced for....CUSTOMER SATISFACTION....the one absolutely essential element in keeping a business viable.

Problem seems to be that most cuemakers are hands on guys that have an artistic flair. They have spent lots of time perfecting their crafts, but maybe not so much time learning about business. They try to be all things to all people and something usually suffers.

Custom makers tend to be one person operations whether for perceived financial reasons or maybe because of that feeling that "I should be able to do it all". In the infant stages of any business, the owner does have to "do it all", but that's usually what a business tries to get away from as it grows. Can you imagine going into a hardware store and having to wait for hours for the owner to make sales calls, pay vendors, design product, stock shelves, do invoicing, etc., before they waited on you? The weird thing is that the owner would try to lead you to believe he was doing the best job possible (if he had the time to talk to you in between jobs) because of all the motions he was going through!

I wish that cuemakers could understand that if they got a little help, that it might actually help them become more profitable. If they had a little scheduling help, they might be able to set better priorities, and they would have somebody to run "interference" for them with phone calls, emails, ordering supplies, shipping and receiving, talking to customers with problems, etc.

A customer has more and more choices these days, and to be told that the "maker doesn't need customers" because of their stellar reputation is pretty naive. Granted, there will always be the Stradivarius or Szamboti that people will follow based completely on the quality of work, but I guarantee this is an exception to the rule.

(As a post script, I love Bender's cues. I bought one on the secondary market a couple of years ago. I had some general questions about the cue and I emailed Mike several times. I never got an answer to any of them. When it came time to order a new cue for my collection, I decided on another maker who, even though they didn't have the Bender name, had been much more responsive to my questions about his cues. I'm sure Mike won't lose any sleep, as he's worked hard to develop his technical skills and I'm sure has customers lined up to the moon, but I won't be one of them, and I think this is unfortunate, as I'm a pretty good customer who talks up good makers to anyone who'll listen).

Steve Feld
Phoenix, AZ