Non-Traditional Banking

SpiderWebComm said:
Just thought I'd piss on a hornet's nest on here because I miss the controversy. Let me feel your hate, as the Emperor would say. Love you guys...even the tin foil guy.

http://www.poolvids.com/view/51/nontraditional-banking-continued/

I wish Freddy, Danny, Jay and others would chime in too.
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I have not been taught any system, but that is eaxtly how I line up my shots. I don't know why, but it always seemed right to me personally, not to mention it has always worked.

Thanks, for your post!!
 
Do you pivot in the air when you are aiming non bank shots? Also, are you looking at the cue ball or the object ball on delivery of the cue? When you get your shot line, are you maintaining the center to edge visual or due you let go of that and concentrate on the object ball or the aim point on the cue ball?
 
chevybob20 said:
Do you pivot in the air when you are aiming non bank shots? Also, are you looking at the cue ball or the object ball on delivery of the cue? When you get your shot line, are you maintaining the center to edge visual or due you let go of that and concentrate on the object ball or the aim point on the cue ball?
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When using the center-to-edge system, air pivoting is crucial... I think. I air pivot on every shot using that method. With Ron's system, I just move the hip (body pivot) after addressing the ball.

When I slide into the shot....by that time, I would have already pivoted to the center of the CB... that's the line I focus on from there on out. The center-to-edge line is forgotten by then. Same thing with Ron's standard 90/90 pivot and other pivots... once I hit CB center...that's the line that matters.

I always look at the OB last.
 
chevybob20 said:
I forgot to thank you for that video. A picture is worth a thousand words.
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thanks for the video. verrry interrresting ! i'll try it out tomorrow and let you know in the evening.
 
Spider -- really appreciate your contributions to PoolVids.com. Great content.
 
Nice video, I was always taught that there isn't a point in banking a ball if you can't get position. So I have learned to use a combination of both cut banks and spin banks. Most banks I apply top or bottom, just a smidgen and some banks I apply some spin. Also how hard you hit it really makes a difference. In your video you hit the ball so hard I wonder how much english is actually being used off the rail. Since speed kills action (Freddy's saying) and speed shortens banks I wonder how much the english matters at that point. Can you make similar banks with a firm or easy speed? I am asking to better understand where the limits of this technique lay. How accurate is this system at different speeds?
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Just thought I'd piss on a hornet's nest on here because I miss the controversy. Let me feel your hate, as the Emperor would say. Love you guys...even the tin foil guy.

http://www.poolvids.com/view/51/nontraditional-banking-continued/

I wish Freddy, Danny, Jay and others would chime in too.
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SWC,
Too cool....many thanks.

I haven't really used the "center to edge" much for banks - but plan on working it. I also really liked the idea of the "center to center" - I will definitely play around with it.

I have always been intrigued in banking by the effect of speed; as well as the effect of forward/reverse spin on the object ball (and it's corollary distance of the object ball from the rail). I had a world class banker tell me that his key was finding the "speed of the table" where his aiming system worked. I noticed that you were hitting the banks at typical bank pool speed. Do you try to make fine adjustment if you have to slow roll the bank for position, or if you have to draw/follow whitey for different position???
 
rcarson said:
Nice video, I was always taught that there isn't a point in banking a ball if you can't get position. So I have learned to use a combination of both cut banks and spin banks. Most banks I apply top or bottom, just a smidgen and some banks I apply some spin. Also how hard you hit it really makes a difference. In your video you hit the ball so hard I wonder how much english is actually being used off the rail. Since speed kills action (Freddy's saying) and speed shortens banks I wonder how much the english matters at that point. Can you make similar banks with a firm or easy speed? I am asking to better understand where the limits of this technique lay. How accurate is this system at different speeds?
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Very good question. I hit every bank at a firm speed unless there's a reason why I shouldn't. Freddy's saying is absolutely true. In Ron's system, each adjustment is 1/2 tip (i.e. 1/2 tip, 1 tip, 1.5 tips, etc.). Because I bank firmly (which is only personal preference...I know Hopkins pocket-speeds his banks and he's devastating....lots of the KY bankers warp-speed everything and they're devastating). I pivot a hair more because of my speed--- just a hair. If you practice a lot, you'll find your "spot" for your own stoke.

If Ronnie V. reads this, I hope he can chime in about speed vs. pivot adjustments.
 
Williebetmore said:
SWC,
Too cool....many thanks.

I haven't really used the "center to edge" much for banks - but plan on working it. I also really liked the idea of the "center to center" - I will definitely play around with it.

I have always been intrigued in banking by the effect of speed; as well as the effect of forward/reverse spin on the object ball (and it's corollary distance of the object ball from the rail). I had a world class banker tell me that his key was finding the "speed of the table" where his aiming system worked. I noticed that you were hitting the banks at typical bank pool speed. Do you try to make fine adjustment if you have to slow roll the bank for position, or if you have to draw/follow whitey for different position???
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I'm almost afraid to answer your question publicly because I'm fearful of saying something incorrect. In bank pool, for my style, I'm just trying to make the OB with the spin/stroke to get the CB on the rail in the kitchen...position first, make ball second....one shot at a time. Not saying that's how you play, it's only how I play.

If I'm playing 9-ball or something, I pretty much hit every bank hard with barely enough juice on it to let me see an open shot for my next ball. That's all I care about. The reason being is I can either center-to-edge the OB in (unless it's REAAAALLY tough) or use Ron's system to pocket the next ball.

I give equal discussion to both Hal and Ron because they're, in my opinion, geniuses. Both systems automatically pocket balls (assuming you stroke straight). I use Ron's systems for a good portion of my game and I use Hal's system as well. I even use a tip of inside through to the OB center and pivot to CB center on some shots that are slight angles to the pocket (that's an automatic as well... good because it's a SMALL pivot and perfect to cinch certain shots).

I think I made the video today because I realized how much Ron V, Hal and Stan changed my pool life over the last year so I thought if I posted something that could help one other person--- it'd be worth it. I'm not joking, my ball pocketing picked up "multiple" balls in a short period of time...almost within a month of practice. I just hope if someone is helped the way I was, they'll call Ron, Hal or Stan and complete the Jedi training.
 
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I'm depressed. No comments from Patrick or Nick the engineer. I was trying to move the last discussion into a new thread. :(
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I'm depressed. No comments from Patrick or Nick the engineer. I was trying to move the last discussion into a new thread. :(
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When d you get to Valley Forge? I would like to see this in person.
 
Hey David, you did a very nice video and a great job explaining it...Now I won`t have to do one on banking...

thank you, Ron V
 
easy-e said:
When d you get to Valley Forge? I would like to see this in person.
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I'll be there tomorrow at 10am. I have to help TAR get the internet line setup and tested and then see if Hoppy needs help with any setup and then I'm free to grab beer (I like how beer is both singular and plural...like deer). I mean this in the plural sense, of course.

With beer-in-hand, I'll show you whatever. If anyone else from AZB is at THE SPOT tomorrow (Million 9-ball, valley forge), swing by to say hi!

SUPPORT TAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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RonV said:
Hey David, you did a very nice video and a great job explaining it...Now I won`t have to do one on banking...

thank you, Ron V
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Your info changed my life, what can I say.

If anyone is a student of the game, you GOTTA call this guy. Life changing. I love when I need to know something, anything, I can call you and get THE answer.

Can't believe you give away free phone lessons on this stuff and your phone bill isn't $20000.00 a month.

Dave

P.S. Ron, how does the speed of the shot affect your pivot adjustment? Someone asked that earlier. To me, I bank the same speed all the time and everything always goes... maybe I'm just lucky?
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
I'm depressed. No comments from Patrick or Nick the engineer. I was trying to move the last discussion into a new thread. :(
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Your efforts and enthusiasm are appreciated, and it's fun to watch you fire balls into pockets at warp speed. But the video doesn't really show how you do it, so I can only comment on what you say about it.

If you start by lining up every shot the same way (center-to-center or center-to-edge), then obviously all the real aiming is done with the adjustment you make from there. You don't say how you adjust except that you "pivot" by some amount, and that amount is apparently chosen by you from experience - in other words, by feel. If you're using a system to tell you how much to pivot it isn't obvious what that system is.

At least in the narrow range of angles and speeds you showed, it works very well for you, but I don't know how you'd go about teaching it or adapting it to a wider range of speeds, angles and position play demands.

I saw that you like 14.1 and have some respectable runs. I can't imagine hitting shots in that game like you did in this video.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Your efforts and enthusiasm are appreciated, and it's fun to watch you fire balls into pockets at warp speed. But the video doesn't really show how you do it, so I can only comment on what you say about it.

If you start by lining up every shot the same way (center-to-center or center-to-edge), then obviously all the real aiming is done with the adjustment you make from there. You don't say how you adjust except that you "pivot" by some amount, and that amount is apparently chosen by you from experience - in other words, by feel. If you're using a system to tell you how much to pivot it isn't obvious what that system is.

At least in the narrow range of angles and speeds you showed, it works very well for you, but I don't know how you'd go about teaching it or adapting it to a wider range of speeds, angles and position play demands.

I saw that you like 14.1 and have some respectable runs. I can't imagine hitting shots in that game like you did in this video.

pj
chgo
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I understand where you're coming from. The first segment really isn't feel as it is experience (big difference in this case). The distance of the pivot is made in 1/2 tip increments. For the gross majority of banks (straight-backs and cross-sides/corners), it's center-center with a 1/2 tip pivot (either left or right). It's almost a click system... meaning, if you can see that 1/2 tip won't get you there, you pivot a tip... that'll get you there. Extreme cases at 1.5 tips.

Center-to-edge, well, it is what it is. The air pivot is a little advanced to describe in an online forum. It'll bank in almost anything from anywhere. You have to add slight inside or outside english in extreme angles. If you want, if it'd help you believe, I'll make another video of only really extreme shit and bank it all using just that. There's really minimal feel (every single system has some degree of feel based on conditions changing outside of your control... I know you know that, but for the others). My point in making this video is these systems are the strongest foundation to banking, in my opinion.

Meaning, you'll become a great banker quicker with this than you will with the traditional stuff you and Nick discussed in the other thread. Not knocking the other info--- it's all sound info--- just if I have $1000 riding on a bank, I'm not mirroring, I'm not figuring ratios with adjustments, I'm not doing that little cross X system, I'm not doing anything other than what I did in that video. I think that's my point.

P.S. If I have to bank in 14.1, I'm banking exactly how I did in this video... exact same speed. I'm forcing the OB in the hole. The only time I wouldn't, ironically, is bank pool where I'm trying to put the CB on the rail after the shot.
 
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